|
| Thread: Magic heroes weaker than might? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · «PREV / NEXT» |
|
Sarcyan
Adventuring Hero
|
posted April 17, 2014 07:12 PM |
|
Edited by Sarcyan at 19:46, 17 Apr 2014.
|
bloodsucker said:
What do you think about Luna? Would you choose her for your main?
I mean, her speciallity can really be helpfull early game (specially if you have a well near your base town) but will be mostly of no use in the main fight.
Do you fill that the advantage of early levelling is enough to make her a top or is just an hero to forget after a while?
 bloodsucker, your question about Luna is addressed to whom? JollyJoker, Aron, Maurice, me, etc? Luna... sounds good to me. I have never played that character in Heroes of Might and Magic 3, for now... -still stuck in the Armageddon's Blade campaign-
markmasters said:
I came here to bring my opinion about original poster question, but it is waaaay to far offtopic already i see 
You are right, but getting off-topic is pretty easy sometimes.
In the tech forum where I am, usually, the moderators keep everything tidy and clean by creating a new thread with a new title themselves when a discussion gets off-topic. They do a great job.
They move the posts of the collateral discussion to that new thread. For instance, they would call the new thread something like "Heroes of Might and Magic like games that we are after".
Or "Recommendations on Heroes of Might and Magic 3 like games".
People would love to read comments on the matter we began to discuss at first, so don't hold your opinion back, it'd be nice to get on topic for a change --gotta admit I am one of the guiltier ones in the off-t derailment, but deleting those posts would be kind of a sacrilege in my opinion, moving them, I'd be okay with.
____________
Heroes of Might and Magic; They aren't only games, they are passions. And feelings. Laura Jackson is the most beautiful woman who has ever existed!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSBTC1HHN-E
|
|
Sarcyan
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted April 17, 2014 07:40 PM |
|
Edited by Sarcyan at 19:51, 17 Apr 2014.
|
JollyJoker said:
Did anyone mention Disciples 2 Gold already? Gog sells it for 10 Dollars, which is one hell of a deal, considering what you get for the money.
Superb game. I've fallen for it in an unexpected way. I got it and played it when bloodsucker -I think it was him, iirc- recommended it to me but never played it much ever since.
My main gripe with the game was that I didn't get it to play in windowed mode -learnt how to use Alt+Tab more efficiently in games, so bleh windowed mode, it's not that I miss it much- and I played it very little.
When I read your post I decided to give it another try, and I didn't expect it to be THAT good.
On a related note, I read that Disciples 3, the most recent iteration in the series, got bashed. Even the company behind the game got bankrupt.
BUT there is a new version called Disciples 3: Reincarnation which allegedly addressed and fixed every single issue with the original Disciples 3 and brought back factions that missed the original release.
http://www.gog.com/forum/disciples_series/disciples_reincarnation
I'd want to give my opinion on Disciples 2 -I didn't play a lot, but played enough to have a relatively decent opinion on it-.
(now it's only Etherlords and Etherlords 2 that I am crazy about playing, personal recommendations they gave me in another thread -thanks Francisco-  , if I can get them working on Windows 8 -it worked when I purchased the game in very late February-, which I did before but now I can't for some reason, gotta investigate the issue 'cos I got frustrated. I want to play the werewolf faction...)
Some of the features I loved about Disciples 2 (and 1, but played 2 more)...
- A great thing about the game is that while heroes in Heroes of Might and Magic you can hire a hero and they become whatever you want them to be, in Disciples 2 every single kind of hero has a job or a work he/she does exclusively.
That’s an excellent feature if you ask me.
You just don’t care about increasing the defence or offense of a hero and make them as better as possible, simply because that’s not their job (for instance, the Banshee for the Necromancers, not a fighter by any stretch of the imagination, but useful for other tasks). Loved that very much.
I mean, you don’t build a Dream Team of heroes, but a Dream Team of leaders with a specific job, so you can avoid unnecessary fights and make every leader valuable in their own special way.
The only thing I didn’t like about the game for now, is that pretty much like Heroes of Might and Magic 5 the turns are in the slow side –compared to similar games with the HoMM spirit in them-. The "computer is thinking" thing can get slooow.
Gotta mention too, that the conversation between the human merchant and the necromancers in the first scenario of the necromancers campaign (very early in that scenario) is absolutely hilarious.
I chose a Mage Lord for the necromancers. I noticed that with a Mage Lord you can cast twice a day --nice touch. The taunts and voices of the necros are also so fun.
The game has also an excellent voice acting.
My favourite part of the story –it gave me the goosebumps, LOVED that line-, is one of my preferred ones ever in a videogame.
Only Vampire: The Masquerade Redemption held that honour for me, because of its movie-worthy story, which is a very rare thing for a videogame -where story-telling is usually kinda meh-.
This is a line from the necromancers campaign, the very beginning of the game. I think it's really really beautiful:
“Stories of these terrible events travelled only on witch’s winds”. 
____________
Heroes of Might and Magic; They aren't only games, they are passions. And feelings. Laura Jackson is the most beautiful woman who has ever existed!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSBTC1HHN-E
|
|
Herry
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
100% Devil
|
|
posted April 17, 2014 09:43 PM |
|
|
guys i got tired of your discussion since page 2, no offence, cause you can practically kill an army if you got destroy undead + invincible spell power, i'll tell you something: it's still balanced cause if you get an impolosion + berserk bomb on an enemy you would invite him to his tomb, magic heroes only lack something, that is a bit of might, and they would kill em all. a hybrid hero, half magic half might is a juggernaut.
____________
|
|
bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted April 18, 2014 02:12 AM |
|
|
Sarcyan said:
bloodsucker said:
What do you think about Luna? Would you choose her for your main?
I mean, her speciallity can really be helpfull early game (specially if you have a well near your base town) but will be mostly of no use in the main fight.
Do you fill that the advantage of early levelling is enough to make her a top or is just an hero to forget after a while?
bloodsucker, your question about Luna is addressed to whom? JollyJoker, Aron, Maurice, me, etc? Luna... sounds good to me. I have never played that character in Heroes of Might and Magic 3, for now... -still stuck in the Armageddon's Blade campaign-
Well, the question is addressed to everybody in Heroes Community.
I was trying to return to the main issue that is: who are the top heroes?
Luna is a magic hero who can give you tremendous advantages early game because she doesn't need troops to be highly efective. Is she good enough to be your choice?
P.S. See thread "The Power of Luna" for ilustration.
http://youtu.be/s5hEh-MnIQ8
|
|
Sarcyan
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted April 18, 2014 07:50 PM |
|
Edited by Sarcyan at 19:52, 18 Apr 2014.
|
bloodsucker said:
Sarcyan said:
bloodsucker said:
What do you think about Luna? Would you choose her for your main?
I mean, her speciallity can really be helpfull early game (specially if you have a well near your base town) but will be mostly of no use in the main fight.
Do you fill that the advantage of early levelling is enough to make her a top or is just an hero to forget after a while?
bloodsucker, your question about Luna is addressed to whom? JollyJoker, Aron, Maurice, me, etc? Luna... sounds good to me. I have never played that character in Heroes of Might and Magic 3, for now... -still stuck in the Armageddon's Blade campaign-
Well, the question is addressed to everybody in Heroes Community.
I was trying to return to the main issue that is: who are the top heroes?
Luna is a magic hero who can give you tremendous advantages early game because she doesn't need troops to be highly efective. Is she good enough to be your choice?
P.S. See thread "The Power of Luna" for ilustration.
http://youtu.be/s5hEh-MnIQ8
Wow, that was impressive. She is a magic hero, right? She didn't need reinforcements. Wonder if that could work in a castle assault. (if she could use two spells per turn, healing herself and using Fire Wall it could work with fully upgraded castles)
The first actions of her turn are really smartly used in the video. It also shows how you can take advantage of the terrain. The AI doesn't even have a retaliation change, he heh. And since the fire absorbs all the possible contact with the Pixie the strategy is pretty smart.
It just goes to show how cool the game can be when the heroes stand out whether they are based on might or magic.
Sure the game goes very smooth at first but I'd expect some complications later despite her perks, but it makes the early game much quicker and she could become your main hero, I think, or you could use her for clearing the map and have your favourite hero following her to increase his/her skills without getting into a single fight in the early game.
It seems to be a hero you can adapt your strategy to, and breeze through the initial stages of the campaign. At that time of the game, Luna is pretty darn good.
Thanks for the video. This is the link I got when I copy/pasted the link of the video bloodsucker shared:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5hEh-MnIQ8
I am kinda missing Heroes of Might and Magic 3 and 5 these days -HoMM 2 too-, but I expect to return to our beloved series soon, once I am done with my experimentations.
Luckily all the games I tried are well above average, and very decent implementations of the HoMM formula. It didn't hurt.
____________
Heroes of Might and Magic; They aren't only games, they are passions. And feelings. Laura Jackson is the most beautiful woman who has ever existed!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSBTC1HHN-E
|
|
Sarcyan
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted April 18, 2014 09:17 PM |
|
Edited by Sarcyan at 21:48, 18 Apr 2014.
|
Gotta add that I got Expeditions: Conquistador about a month ago at GoG. I did that because it is a turn based strategy game from the year 2013 with RPG features.
It reminds me of Heroes of Might and Magic 3 somehow, BUT it is different compared to anything I tried though.
You have a main hero -with different ratings at Survival, Tactics, Healing, Diplomacy, Scouting, Leadership, etc ++you can choose- and then you have followers like Doctors, Hunters, Scouts, Soldiers, etc, in your expedition.
Additionally, the stats of your followers add to yours. So if you begin with... let's say, 7 at Diplomacy and you have a couple of followers which are proficient at it, you can start your game with 11 or 13 or whatever at Diplomacy, instead of just 7.
The thing is that you end up feeling for your followers.
Your followers have many different personality traits. Some could even be your kindred spirit, so to say.
Those personality traits still remain a mystery to me, as to how they function in the game, but they range from Proud, Adventurous, Racist, Cautious, Open minded, Altruistic... to Aggressive, Peaceful, Narcissistic, Greedy, Pious, Courageous... etc.
They also have passive abilities and proficiencies. Happy as a lark to have it, too.
https://secure.gog.com/game/expeditions_conquistador
____________
Heroes of Might and Magic; They aren't only games, they are passions. And feelings. Laura Jackson is the most beautiful woman who has ever existed!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSBTC1HHN-E
|
|
markmasters
Famous Hero
Dragon of justice
|
|
posted April 24, 2014 12:54 PM |
|
|
I am getting on-topic again 
Overall magic heroes are weaker then might since mass spells generally are more effective then damage spells.
However there are some heroes who shine in a small map. Solomyr who starts with chain lightning for example. If he is able to cast it twice lets say in a week 2 battle against another player he is very strong.
Like in this case magic heroes can be used as a snowballer, their higher damage output early game can give them advantage on map control. However after the game carries on, they lose their strength
|
|
bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted April 24, 2014 11:30 PM |
|
|
markmasters said:
Like in this case magic heroes can be used as a snowballer, their higher damage output early game can give them advantage on map control. However after the game carries on, they lose their strength
Well, I used Luna as main for the first time in a Jebus Cross map with three AI players allied against me and finnish by week ten, finding grail and all. Archangel - 492 points, level 30 hero with more then 40 in each primary skill, secondary skills were wisdom, all 4 magic schools, inteligence, logistics and offense. It would have been hard to develop a more "magic" hero.
For more then a week I played with just one pixie/sprite, acchiving level 9 with no army.
So, even if I usually prefer to play with Mephala, Orrin, Neela or Gundula I really found her strong enouch to beat AI at impossible.
Of course, I think almost everyone could beat me using Crag or one of the above.
|
|
Sarcyan
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted April 26, 2014 04:21 AM |
|
Edited by Sarcyan at 04:54, 26 Apr 2014.
|
bloodsucker said:
markmasters said:
Like in this case magic heroes can be used as a snowballer, their higher damage output early game can give them advantage on map control. However after the game carries on, they lose their strength
Well, I used Luna as main for the first time in a Jebus Cross map with three AI players allied against me and finnish by week ten, finding grail and all. Archangel - 492 points, level 30 hero with more then 40 in each primary skill, secondary skills were wisdom, all 4 magic schools, inteligence, logistics and offense. It would have been hard to develop a more "magic" hero.
For more then a week I played with just one pixie/sprite, acchiving level 9 with no army.
So, even if I usually prefer to play with Mephala, Orrin, Neela or Gundula I really found her strong enouch to beat AI at impossible.
Of course, I think almost everyone could beat me using Crag or one of the above.
Interesting, should start to give Scenarios mode a try -probably the best mode of Heroes of Might and Magic 3, from the little I could grasp-. I am still stuck in the Armageddon's campaign, but as Maurice said despite being labelled as hard, it's not harder than the Necropolis campaign, which is tagged as having a Normal difficulty level.
Off-topic again, but gotta say this!
You can get some of my favourite turn based strategy games ever made 80% off this weekend at GoG, via the Supremacy Special sale!
Age of Wonders, Age of Wonders 2, Age of Wonders Shadow Magic and Eador: Genesis with a 80% discount.
Full list of games on sale (some of them cost less than an euro) here:
http://www.gog.com/promo/strategy_games_weekend_promo_250414?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_content=game_subject&utm_campaign=supremacy_special_wp
____________
Heroes of Might and Magic; They aren't only games, they are passions. And feelings. Laura Jackson is the most beautiful woman who has ever existed!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSBTC1HHN-E
|
|
bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted April 26, 2014 04:56 AM |
|
|
Sarcyan said:
You can get some of my favourite turn based strategy games ever made 80% off this weekend at GoG, via the Supremacy Special sale!
Age of Wonders, Age of Wonders 2, Age of Wonders Shadow Magic and Eador: Genesis with a 80% discount.
l_wp[/url]
To late, I already have them all except Eador.
|
|
Sarcyan
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted April 26, 2014 06:17 AM |
|
Edited by Sarcyan at 06:23, 26 Apr 2014.
|
bloodsucker said:
Sarcyan said:
You can get some of my favourite turn based strategy games ever made 80% off this weekend at GoG, via the Supremacy Special sale!
Age of Wonders, Age of Wonders 2, Age of Wonders Shadow Magic and Eador: Genesis with a 80% discount.
l_wp[/url]
To late, I already have them all except Eador.
Eador: Genesis costs 1€ now. And it is probably one of the best Heroes of Might and Magic like games ever made. bloodsucker, I think it is. Yep, it is.
I purchased Battle Realms Winter of the Wolf,-the name is evocative, hope there are wolves- with this sale. http://www.gog.com/game/battle_realms_winter_of_the_wolf
____________
Heroes of Might and Magic; They aren't only games, they are passions. And feelings. Laura Jackson is the most beautiful woman who has ever existed!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSBTC1HHN-E
|
|
bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted April 27, 2014 12:29 AM |
|
|
Thank you for the tip Sarcyan. I also bought Battle Realms there a few weeks ago. I boughted it when it camed out but I must have lost it on of the times I moved.
I had lots of fun with it but with what you now have in hands... definetively not a priority. Better Etherlords.
I've been watching some videos of a girl playing Etherlords 2 in Youtube these last two days.
One thing I found quite interesting and very different from Heroes III is that (even if I think I am a better player) our gameplay differs tremendously for same results.
Has I see it this doesn't happens in Heroes, two great players will take more or less the same actions in the same battle.
_____________________________________________________________
One thing we didn't discuss but I think fall in this scope is the difference between the overall quality of Strongold heroes and other towns, specially Tower.
Ok, tower troops are much better but Strongold has heroes like Gundula, Crag, Dessa, Tyraxor, Jabarkas, Terek and even Yog whose initial set of secundary skills are perfectly adequate to their speciallities while Tower has an Armorer speciallist with scholar, a mage's speciallists with ballistics, no creature speciallist with armorer or offense, no hero with archery (in the only town with three shooters), no hero with logistics or pathfinding and a ballista speciallist with no artillery that starts with no ballista in a town whose blacksmith sell's ammo carts...
Imagine you capture a Tower first week while playing with Strongold in a XL map with U. You build level seven in a hurry and then keep on developing the town with the best creatures (except for behemoths, of course).
And people talk about balance... Balance for Tower would be to transform Torosar in a Titans speciallist with Archery and Armorer.
If you mostly play fixed maps and Jebus Cross random maps it may seam I'm exagerating.
Now, please take a look at Terra dei Demoni:
http://www.twitch.tv/the__the/b/507346256
Do u see my point?
|
|
djkiwi
Hired Hero
|
|
posted May 05, 2014 02:05 AM |
|
|
|
magic is definately weaker, but i've found something to that, make 2 combination artifacts that together fill up all slots for perfect stats to weigh up against angelic alliance. I've basically given the new combo artifacts i have made for mages a buff compared to the warrior ones ive made.
|
|
scbw1234
Hired Hero
|
|
posted May 17, 2014 03:47 PM |
|
|
I personally thinks that Battle Mage are really good.
____________
|
|
bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted July 15, 2014 12:49 PM |
|
|
I want to make reflection about Neela.
Even if scholar is not a great skill for main, I think that she can work very fine with her skill tree and prims distribution if u use her like this: first develop her has a magic hero, going for wisdom and all magic schools u can get, maybe even sorcery; then use damaging spells on your enemies and trust the armourer speciallity to keep your troops alive. This can work well if you manage to protect shooters (and Tower has a bunch of them) or if u use an immune troop and Armagedon.
The problem I see here is that u will be counting on good damaging spells much before u have built the apropriate mage guilds. Imagine that instead u get prayer and sorrow or water walk, magic mirror instead of implosion...
|
|
Lumske_Beaver
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted July 16, 2014 12:39 PM |
|
|
Magic heroes has no influential advantages over might heroes whereas might heroes develop way better in terms of primary and secondary skills. Additionally might heroes have much better hero specialties.
The might vs magic discussion is rather silly since on most random templates/maps might heroes are great spell casters around late week 3 or mid week 4 (earlier on Jebus) rendering magic heroes virtually useless in a main fight. Utopias grants artifacts such as Helm, Sword, Shield, magic tomes and spell hat which easily can give a might hero around 15/15 or higher spell power/knowledge and level 4-5 spells by late week 4 or earlier. A magic hero may have higher magic stats, but against the approx. 30/30 att/def of a might hero with exp haste/slow those extra spell power points is not doing much. At this point knowledge is completely useless as there is simply no need for that much mana. As many has already stated haste/slow also negates higher lvl magic due to the need to counter these.
Regarding earth/air might heroes have a lesser or no chance of being offered fire and water magic meaning that you're more likely to get earth and air early in the game, which is extremely important as these especially earth are crucial for clearing the map.
It is tougher to avoid losses in topes and early tough fights e.g. full cons with magic heroes than might heroes causing slower progression and lack of map control. Regarding map control the only reliable magic heroes to gain logistics are battle mages, which is a significant problem as map control is crucial since it grants you better control than your opponent over artifacts on map/topes, hives/cons, towns and likely lets you decide the time of the final battle.
Holistically all these advantages are greater than on their own because each single one gets exceedingly more powerful from all the others. This means that by the time of the final battle might heroes will generally have much better att/def, better secondary skills, stronger armies (higher numbers), better artifacts (due to map control and greater strength in battles), even knowledge (the extra knowledge of mages becomes useless) and only slighly lower spell power (might heroes will tend to catch up in spell power whilst mages will tend to get further behind in att/def).
As an additional note might heroes benefit more than magic heroes from many artifacts such as speed artifacts, orb of inhibition, recanter's cloak, Angelic Alliance (speed advantage is more useful on a might hero + greater stats), Armor of the Damned, shackles, speed artifacts, resistance artifacts, health artifacts (due to armorer and higher defense of might heroes). Only a few of the magic orbs are more useful for mages.
|
|
EvilLoynis
Famous Hero
The Dark Shadow
|
|
posted July 17, 2014 02:28 AM |
|
|
They really could have made Mass Slow/Haste not auto overide each other with whichever was cast last, but base it on the spell power of the Heroes who cast them.
Example could be Might Hero with 10 10 5 5 stats and Magic Hero with 5 5 10 10. Magic Hero goes first and casts a Mass Slow on the enemy. Might Hero counters on his turn with Mass Haste BUT is only able to take off 5 turns of the 10 turn duration of the slow that was cast by the enemy.
This way it would take the Might Hero 2 casts just to undo the effect of 1 cast from the Magic Hero and would let the Magic Hero have a chance to use another spell.
The main problem with trying to compare Might and Magic in this game is that Might gets to apply to your whole army so the more troops you have the better.
Perhaps another way would have been to NOT allow Might heroes to get Expert level in Magic skills and vice versa. That way they would never be allowed to get Mass Haste/Slow.
____________
"I am both selfish and instictive. I value nature and the world around me as means to an end as well as an end in itself; at best I ... too long to display...
|
|
batoonike
Known Hero
|
|
posted August 01, 2014 11:18 PM |
|
|
|
Luna is magic hero too Everyone else is prolly inferior to most might heroes though, with common settings and bigger map.
|
|
Sal
Famous Hero
|
|
posted August 03, 2014 11:46 AM |
|
|
EvilLoynis said:
Perhaps another way would have been to NOT allow Might heroes to get Expert level in Magic skills and vice versa. That way they would never be allowed to get Mass Haste/Slow.
Yes, this is the most obvious balance to do, but will also invalidate the 1 million single maps original/designed until now, along with original campaigns too. Beside, it will only slip the main problem, which is that mass slow/haste are way more important than hero stats-on a entire game length-thus you will have now everybody play with magic heroes only then add attack/defense bonus locations over the map to balance.
The optimal way to balance the game is
a) make expert schools available only to magic heroes then
b) find A SUBSTITUTE enough interesting for might heroes, as without mass slow they will eat the dust early game.
You cannot just prohibit mass slow/haste to might than claim you balanced the game, it will be a disaster.
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted August 03, 2014 02:34 PM |
|
|
I see it the other way round.
There are a couple of very good Might skills: Armnorer, Offense, Logistics, for example. Ballistics is severely needed.
Then there is theoretically the critical Wisdom skill, that would be a good thing, if Haste/Slow were level 3 or you'd need Wisdom as well for the level 1 Mass spells.
However, there aren't really useful MAGIC skills except the schools. It would be better if there were no wells at all, and Mysticism would gain 10, 25 and 50 mana, respectively. It would also serve Magic heroes well, if the Town's guild would only replenish something like 10 points per level or so. Also, spells might be more expensive, with Intelligence making them cheaper.
Eagle Eye might have a spell-blocking function - for example, enemy spell duration is reduced by 1, 3, 5 turns.
Sorcery might increase the effect of buffs and decrease the effects of debuffs and so on.
What I want to say is, that a magic hero has a problem to find good magic skills once he knows Wisdom and two schools, skills, that really work well for them, making them more formidable casters.
The reason is the one you named yourself: you can't reduce magic significantly for Might heroes without giving them something else which is interesting - that's why I say, it would be easier to add something to the arsenal of the Magic heroes.
|
| |
|
|
