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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted August 09, 2015 09:12 PM |
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kiryu133 said:
I disagree. If there is some science to the ship It's sci-fi but if the ship does look like the enterprise but no explanation for how it travels etc. It's still fantasy. given nothing else technological gets the explanations for how they work. If someone in a fantasy work has supposedly high-tech armour it's going to be fantasy until that armour gets some explanation for how it works and the implication of its existence is explored in some manner beyond "she gets stronger wielding it".
But ultimately if more people perceive it as Sci-Fi it is Sci-Fi whether you or me call it something else is irrelevant to most people. If people see an enterprise like ship I can almost guarantee most people will think Sci-Fi first not fantasy.
Even then in Might and Magic technology is being used as an explanation which makes it Sci-Fi anyway.
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"Don't resist the force. Redirect it. Water over rock."-blizzardboy
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted August 09, 2015 09:28 PM |
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Gryphs said:
But ultimately if more people perceive it as Sci-Fi it is Sci-Fi whether you or me call it something else is irrelevant to most people. If people see an enterprise like ship I can almost guarantee most people will think Sci-Fi first not fantasy.
Even then in Might and Magic technology is being used as an explanation which makes it Sci-Fi anyway.
Sci-fi and fantasy are genres. Space and medieval are settings. they are not exclusive.
Tech used as an explanation does not make Sci-fi. Said tech needs to be explored or integral to the story.
Another example would be alien. Do you consider it Sci-fi or Fantasy? I consider it horror with Sci-fi elements (specifically our own, humanities, position when confronted with unknown life-forms) but Horror with Fantasy elements is also of equal merit.
What the masses find to be "sci-fi" is likely to simply be a setting that happens to be more commonly used for Sci-fi and has very little to do with the Genre definition.
That said i would love to have M&M's use of High-tech stuff explained. I am intrigued by it but do not have access to any of the games.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 09, 2015 10:08 PM |
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kiryu133 said:
Sci-fi and fantasy are genres. Space and medieval are settings. they are not exclusive.
Name me one space fantasy game and one medieval sci-fi game exclusively (no fantasy / sci-fi hybrids).
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted August 09, 2015 10:35 PM |
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kiryu133 said:
Said tech needs to be explored or integral to the story.
No, it doesn't. It can be the driving force or the unexplained backdrop and still be Sci-Fi. Even then the technology is an integral part of Might and Magic anyway.
kiryu133 said:
Another example would be alien. Do you consider it Sci-fi or Fantasy? I consider it horror with Sci-fi elements (specifically our own, humanities, position when confronted with unknown life-forms) but Horror with Fantasy elements is also of equal merit.
I suppose it could though if possible I would like to hear you describe its fantasy nature beyond the fact that it has an alien in it.
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"Don't resist the force. Redirect it. Water over rock."-blizzardboy
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Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
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posted August 09, 2015 10:44 PM |
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Stevie said:
kiryu133 said:
Sci-fi and fantasy are genres. Space and medieval are settings. they are not exclusive.
Name me one space fantasy game and one medieval sci-fi game exclusively (no fantasy / sci-fi hybrids).
Some people have called Star Wars a fantasy, hence a Star Wars game is a fantasy set in space. The other one... hmm.. not sure but maybe M&M? However, I have to point out that that fantasy in space, and medieval sf is already a hybrid in its essence, as fantasy, especially high fantasy (LOTR) is placed in arcadian or pastoral setting, usually in the past (medieval), while sf is more progressive in that manner, and is usually set in the future, hence space.
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"The age can be wicked to those who walk alone. When I look into the Mirror, I see myself as I might become..." -Freya
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted August 09, 2015 11:36 PM |
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Edited by kiryu133 at 23:51, 09 Aug 2015.
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Stevie said:
Name me one space fantasy game and one medieval sci-fi game exclusively (no fantasy / sci-fi hybrids).
Any star wars game and games with spaceships or tech used merely for decoration. Medieval Sci-fi is substantially harder to come by, primarily due to forward-thinking or cautionary tales about science being a staple of the genre and hard to implement with Tech hundreds of years old but is certainly possible if rare. Not sure games even exist with those criteria.
Gryphs said:
No, it doesn't. It can be the driving force or the unexplained backdrop and still be Sci-Fi. Even then the technology is an integral part of Might and Magic anyway.
You're right. Aesthetics of said tech is still not a part of that though.
Gryphs said:
I suppose it could though if possible I would like to hear you describe its fantasy nature beyond the fact that it has an alien in it.
Depending on whether you see the conflict as "man fighting for survival against unknown menace possibly out there" or "man versus dangerous, completely made-up creature". I'd say it'd be harder to justify though I'm sure some do. Sadly I'm not sure i could beyond "Hey, it's all made up and whatever tech is in here isn't really explained or central to the story". It could've been made in a renaissance setting with a large trade-vessel instead and that wouldn't rule out Sci-fi elements. Fantasy probably doesn't have as much merit in hindsight though...
EDIT:
Assassins creed is a pretty good example actually. thank you.
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Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
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posted August 09, 2015 11:39 PM |
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For medieval sf, we could probably use Assassin's Creed as an example...
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"The age can be wicked to those who walk alone. When I look into the Mirror, I see myself as I might become..." -Freya
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Kimarous
Supreme Hero
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posted August 09, 2015 11:47 PM |
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Stevie said:
Name me (...) one medieval sci-fi game exclusively (no fantasy / sci-fi hybrids).
Star Ocean, Star Ocean, Star Ocean!
Ugh, I tried "Star Ocean: Till the End of Time" expecting a space RPG and the majority of the game is traipsing around a bog-standard medieval setting. 
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted August 09, 2015 11:51 PM |
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Edited by Gryphs at 23:51, 09 Aug 2015.
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kiryu133 said:
You're right. Aesthetics of said tech is still not a part of that though.
I never said they were only the majorities impression of it.
kiryu133 said:
been made in a renaissance setting with a large trade-vessel instead and that wouldn't rule out Sci-fi elements.
That is a bit of a stretch as all technology during the renaissance is known and adding a monster from space or not would not make it Sci-Fi more an old horror story if anything.
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"Don't resist the force. Redirect it. Water over rock."-blizzardboy
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted August 09, 2015 11:55 PM |
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Gryphs said:
That is a bit of a stretch as all technology during the renaissance is known and adding a monster from space or not would not make it Sci-Fi more an old horror story if anything.
It wouldn't have to be a space monster, simply some unknown beast hitching a ride from some uncharted Island. The concept of Man struggling against an unknown predator possibly lurking somewhere beyond our current (or then) understanding still has Sci-fi merit.
It's not exclusively about high-tech. Biology and psychology is just as important.
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drusain
Tavern Dweller
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posted August 09, 2015 11:58 PM |
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Ugh. I voted against Blade to avoid these ridiculous masked creatures. Now the medusa staff has masks on it and the strider (which I was really looking forward to seeing) is just a faceless with no wings and a "horroric" stance. When Limbic started describing the strider, it seemed like it would be a creepy metallic bug. I don’t understand the mask fetish and why it’s being thrust onto the Dungeon faction.
I don't know why I expected Limbic to be creative with the strider. Almost all of their decisions so far for H7 have been too "safe" with the fear that anything they might create bad, or in the worst cases, regress to a system that they didn't understand how it worked (like the skill "wheel").
Honestly, before the New Year, I would've told you I was really hyped for this game. Most decisions seemed really decent. But that hype went away after three specific things:
1. After seeing the production schedule they showed at the New Year which showed there way too little time in the schedule for programming and polish (as was predictably shown in the beta feedback).
2. After the blog had to write an article specifically having to tell people to stop harassing the team after showing the joke that was the Necro town screen, and then still keeping that town screen (Feb 5)
3. After the blog had to write an article specifically to defend (with rather rude wording in some cases) the way the skill “wheel” was implemented after it was revealed and many people rightly criticized the design (April 27)
Honestly, I lost a lot of interest in the game after that last article and haven’t contributed to the blog at all. I was mostly just interested in how Dungeon would look at that point, and I’m disappointed with the insistence to put masks everywhere in Dungeon.
I’ve been in game production long enough to know H7 will launch with a lot of boneheaded bugs (not worse than the H6 atrocity) so I’m done H7 until at least their patch after release and maybe a sale. There’s just been too many design decisions (the skill “wheel” most of all) that just doesn’t make me feel like I’ll have a lot of fun playing.
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted August 09, 2015 11:59 PM |
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Edited by Gryphs at 00:01, 10 Aug 2015.
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kiryu133 said:
It wouldn't have to be a space monster, simply some unknown beast hitching a ride from some uncharted Island. The concept of Man struggling against an unknown predator possibly lurking somewhere beyond our current (or then) understanding still has Sci-fi merit.
It's not exclusively about high-tech. Biology and psychology is just as important.
Yes, but unless the monsters biology or psychology are incredibly important to the story it is know longer Science Fiction as it requires speculative science in some way in order to exist. And a renaissance ship is not a speculative science background.
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"Don't resist the force. Redirect it. Water over rock."-blizzardboy
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Kimarous
Supreme Hero
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posted August 10, 2015 12:02 AM |
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On the topic of "fantasy vs sci-fi", on which side of the fence does steampunk fall?
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted August 10, 2015 12:08 AM |
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Edited by Gryphs at 00:14, 10 Aug 2015.
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I don't know typically this conversation does not exist and it falls under the combined grouping science/fantasy. 
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"Don't resist the force. Redirect it. Water over rock."-blizzardboy
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted August 10, 2015 12:08 AM |
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Gryphs said:
Yes, but unless the monsters biology or psychology are incredibly important to the story it is know longer Science Fiction as it requires speculative science in some way in order to exist. And a renaissance ship is not a speculative science background.
In context, neither was the nostromo  .
I am really enjoying this, but have gotten burnt out.  
Kimarous said:
On the topic of "fantasy vs sci-fi", on which side of the fence does steampunk fall?
steampunk is a setting so it could fall on either. Lends itself well to both I'd say unlike medieval.
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted August 10, 2015 12:12 AM |
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Edited by Gryphs at 00:17, 10 Aug 2015.
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kiryu133 said:
In context, neither was the nostromo .
The Nostromo could not be built in the renaissance and could not be built now hence speculative, but yeah.
kiryu133 said:
I am really enjoying this, but have gotten burnt out.
I agree.
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"Don't resist the force. Redirect it. Water over rock."-blizzardboy
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 10, 2015 12:18 AM |
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In my book, space fantasy and medieval sci-fi are contradictory concepts. The anachronisms are too big. Hybrids don't have this problem because there's always a bridging point.
Anyway, don't see this topic being that useful so I'll just stop here.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted August 10, 2015 01:47 AM |
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Stevie said:
In my book, space fantasy and medieval sci-fi are contradictory concepts. The anachronisms are too big. Hybrids don't have this problem because there's always a bridging point.
Anyway, don't see this topic being that useful so I'll just stop here.
Medieval Sci-Fi could be a story that is set in a post-apocalyptic world, where the people have survived for a number of generations using basic techniques for survival, while still from time to time using items of ancient technology. Those items can't be remade, their inner workings are mostly a mystery, so building new ones is probably out of the question, but their working is still detailed to know what its function is and what it does.
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Kimarous
Supreme Hero
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posted August 10, 2015 05:05 AM |
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Wait, I think I found a good example of medieval sci-fi. Pre-Crisis, mind you, but still...
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 10, 2015 06:30 AM |
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I like the distinction between the force and mass effect fields. The former is not really explained(screw midi chlorians that never happened), it just does things. While the latter can be measured in neutons and may require implants  Lovely spin on what seems to be the same thing otherwise.
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