|
|
fuChris
Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
|
posted November 18, 2014 10:26 AM |
|
Edited by fuChris at 10:28, 18 Nov 2014.
|
JollyJoker said:
Jeez, the Gargs of HoMM 5 are no attackers, obviously. The design would be ridiculous if they had high attack and damage values, but in essence they are STATUES that stand around, block or even function as a magic elemental damage amplifier.
They are bloody ANIMATED STATUES - and as such they are LIGHTYEARS ahead in design of all those gargoyles presumably made of Obsidian or whatever, but are agile like a liquid-metal Terminator.
Well then why not animate cotton candy? They would be cheaper, lighter, could tie up the enemies by being sticky and act as damage amplifiers aswell as cause cavities in their teeth. The whole point of a stone construct is being strong AND tough. The fact that they could fly and were mobile is what made gargoyles special and should have elevated them above mere golems. When the stone creature is less effective than if it was simply thrown by some other creature or machine than you know some horrible design choices were made.
Avirosb said:
fuChris said:
Atleast the H7 one has claws this time...
Looks more like pointy fingernails than claws.
Those are definately claws on their feet atleast.
____________
"Now I am become Chris, the destroyer of worlds." - Robert Oppenheimer.
|
|
kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
|
|
posted November 18, 2014 10:29 AM |
|
|
looks like someone took a pretty statue and brought it to life...
i like it 
|
|
Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
|
|
posted November 18, 2014 10:42 AM |
|
|
|
Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted November 18, 2014 11:05 AM |
|
|
|
They could've done better actually. Not really a fan of Heroes 5 Gargoyles either but these ones feel more like artwork than actually scary looking statues.
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted November 18, 2014 11:09 AM |
|
|
fuChris said:
Well then why not animate cotton candy? They would be cheaper, lighter, could tie up the enemies by being sticky and act as damage amplifiers aswell as cause cavities in their teeth.
Your Gremlins couldn't wall up behind them and I don't see cotton candy being able to amplify magic either.
Quote:
The whole point of a stone construct is being strong AND tough. The fact that they could fly and were mobile is what made gargoyles special and should have elevated them above mere golems.
The Gargoyles are tough. If they were strong, tough, and mobile AND flyers, why, what would you need the other units for - or they were different tier.
Quote:
When the stone creature is less effective than if it was simply thrown by some other creature or machine than you know some horrible design choices were made.
You DO understand that there are creatures with a different purpose than being thrown at the opponent, right?
Bottom line is, you don't have a point, since there are other creature types than tanks. THOSE Gargoyles simply are no tanks, and therefore they don't look like it. Your line of arguing is, they SHOULD have had a different function (being mobile tanks), and IF THEY HAD HAD THAT, their design would have been awful. However, they DIDN'T have that function, and therefore their design was spot-on.
|
|
Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
|
|
posted November 18, 2014 11:37 AM |
|
|
|
The new gargoyle looks better then the H5 variant but I still prefer the original H2-H3-H4 versions.
|
|
fuChris
Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
|
|
posted November 18, 2014 11:47 AM |
|
Edited by fuChris at 11:50, 18 Nov 2014.
|
JollyJoker said:
fuChris said:
Well then why not animate cotton candy? They would be cheaper, lighter, could tie up the enemies by being sticky and act as damage amplifiers aswell as cause cavities in their teeth.
Your Gremlins couldn't wall up behind them and I don't see cotton candy being able to amplify magic either.
In a game containing air elementals you can wall up behind actual thin air so no problem there and as long as there is matter it can be enchanted to amplify magic.
Quote:
Quote:
The whole point of a stone construct is being strong AND tough. The fact that they could fly and were mobile is what made gargoyles special and should have elevated them above mere golems.
The Gargoyles are tough. If they were strong, tough, and mobile AND flyers, why, what would you need the other units for - or they were different tier.
I was talking about H5 gargoyle being tier 3 or 4 instead of 2. But yeah, I was kind of hopeing to get an elite gargoyle this time around, heck or maybe even an elite golem but no such luck. But even in core their abilities could always be compensated by growth rate.
Quote:
Quote:
When the stone creature is less effective than if it was simply thrown by some other creature or machine than you know some horrible design choices were made.
You DO understand that there are creatures with a different purpose than being thrown at the opponent, right?
Yes. Being thrown at the opponent AND surviving. Seems pretty logical to me...
Quote:
Bottom line is, you don't have a point, since there are other creature types than tanks.
Never said anything about being tanks. Tough cavalary on the other hand...
Quote:
THOSE Gargoyles simply are no tanks, and therefore they don't look like it. Your line of arguing is, they SHOULD have had a different function (being mobile tanks), and IF THEY HAD HAD THAT, their design would have been awful. However, they DIDN'T have that function, and therefore their design was spot-on.
But mobile tank is exactly what it was and yes their design was awful.
My point was that ANY creature made out of stone should be expected to both take and give large amounts of damage. Golem, Stone Elemental and the Giant/Titan all managed to do this but had different specialities. The gargoyle on the other hand does not need any specialities since it can fly.
____________
"Now I am become Chris, the destroyer of worlds." - Robert Oppenheimer.
|
|
EPICUSDOOMICUS
Known Hero
|
|
posted November 18, 2014 11:53 AM |
|
|
Ok, H3 Gargs were sth else. I was ok with them.
H5 version, as a lot of us have already mentioned, was -nearly or totally- a failure. As for the H7 proposed ones, IF they turn out to be sth like the shown artwork, I like them (visually-wise, for motion and battle characteristics etc we'll see).
I just happen to not to be able to get out of my mind the idea that H7 Stronghold is going to miss Harpies. You get me, aren't you
____________
To die in battle is the greatest glory.
To choose to do so is the greatest honor!
|
|
Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
|
|
posted November 18, 2014 11:55 AM |
|
|
fuChris said:
But mobile tank is exactly what it was and yes their design was awful.
And so is the new one.
|
|
fuChris
Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
|
|
posted November 18, 2014 12:00 PM |
|
|
Avirosb said:
fuChris said:
But mobile tank is exactly what it was and yes their design was awful.
And so is the new one.
We don't know that yet. I'm still hopeful but they did kind of seem tiny on the screenshots so to be honest I don't see them either takeing or dishing out lots of damage at the moment...
____________
"Now I am become Chris, the destroyer of worlds." - Robert Oppenheimer.
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted November 18, 2014 12:02 PM |
|
|
fuChris said:
But mobile tank is exactly what it was and yes their design was awful.
No, it was a blocker, and their design was spot-on. It was level 2. Show me a "mobile tank", level 2, in HoMM 5. There simply is no such thing, the nearest thing, being the Sylvan alternative upgrade, with the Agile perk making them tough depending on how "mobile" they decided to act. All not so mobile tanks on the other hand are pretty useless.
Which STILL means, my point holds: You WANTED it to be something like the Pegasi in HoMM 3 - and in THAT CASE, their design would indeed be massively unfitting, but as it is, their design was spot-on, also due to the absence of rain in the desert.
Quote:
My point was that ANY creature made out of stone should be expected to both take and give large amounts of damage.
Not at all. It should be expected to TAKE large amounts of damage - like a wall -, but it should GIVE large amounts of damage only, when they happen to fall down on you or when they are expensive and high-level enough to reasonably be BOTH good in attack and defense AND mobile. You cannot have everything at once and not pay a fortune for it.
|
|
Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
|
|
posted November 18, 2014 12:03 PM |
|
|
|
So far the concept art has been fairly consistent.
|
|
fuChris
Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
|
|
posted November 18, 2014 12:05 PM |
|
|
JollyJoker said:
Quote:
My point was that ANY creature made out of stone should be expected to both take and give large amounts of damage.
Not at all. It should be expected to TAKE large amounts of damage - like a wall -
Have you ever been punched by a wall? Being hit by stone fists should REALLY hurt.
____________
"Now I am become Chris, the destroyer of worlds." - Robert Oppenheimer.
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted November 18, 2014 12:07 PM |
|
|
fuChris said:
JollyJoker said:
Quote:
My point was that ANY creature made out of stone should be expected to both take and give large amounts of damage.
Not at all. It should be expected to TAKE large amounts of damage - like a wall -
Have you ever been punched by a wall? Being hit by stone fists should REALLY hurt.
It wouldn't because you should see it coming a week.
|
|
Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
|
|
posted November 18, 2014 12:07 PM |
|
|
|
fuChris
Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
|
|
posted November 18, 2014 12:09 PM |
|
|
Avirosb said:
____________
"Now I am become Chris, the destroyer of worlds." - Robert Oppenheimer.
|
|
DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
|
|
posted November 18, 2014 12:32 PM |
|
|
Avirosb said:
DoubleDeck said:
Melkor = If Sauron was the 3rd dark lord, Melkor was the 1st.
Think you'll find Melkor got his fair share of influence from some guy called Satan.
There is no Satan in Tolkien's universe 
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted November 18, 2014 12:32 PM |
|
|
Look, a stone statue should be extremely impervious to the simple blade of, say, a Footman. And how much damage would a Zombie do against a "real" Gargoyle or Golem? An arrow?
And why wouldn't you go into battle with only constructs?
So that's all somewhat beside the point here, because in the end everything is a question of "bang for the buck". In HoMM 5 you couldn't have a level 2 Gargoyle with a base production of 1, a defense of 20, a damage of 20, an initiative of at least 10, Flying, a movement of at least 5, magic-resistant for a cost of 2000 Gold and a building cost of 8.000.
That makes no sense.
It also makes no sense in game terms to have Gremlins, Djinn, Wizards and Rakshasas - and then Gargoyles as level 5, Golems as level 6 and Titans as level 7 - although it might be called reasonable.
It wouldn't work.
So they came up with level 2 Bookend-Gargoyles, and they fill the slot. You don't like it, fine.
But the design is sound.
|
|
Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
|
|
posted November 18, 2014 12:33 PM |
|
|
DoubleDeck said:
Avirosb said:
DoubleDeck said:
Melkor = If Sauron was the 3rd dark lord, Melkor was the 1st.
Think you'll find Melkor got his fair share of influence from some guy called Satan.
There is no Satan in Tolkien's universe
There's no Melkor in Erwan's universe 
|
|
fuChris
Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
|
|
posted November 18, 2014 12:45 PM |
|
|
JollyJoker said:
It wouldn't work.
You keep saying that but I don't see any problem that couldn't be fixed with growthrate change.
The only thing it would do is break up the "sacred" shooter.cavalary.tank - shooter.cavalary.tank - shooter/tank lineup academy has. Academy/Tower is the town that changed the least during the last 15 years, obviously because it was well balanced but that does not mean it could not be improved any further.
____________
"Now I am become Chris, the destroyer of worlds." - Robert Oppenheimer.
|
|
|
|
This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
