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Valen-Teen
Famous Hero
UFOlolOgist
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posted January 09, 2015 08:53 PM |
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I love M&M team for attempt to fix some mistakes.
See upcoming MMH7 as legendary game 
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Our hopes for Heroes VIII!
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted January 09, 2015 08:59 PM |
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Stevie said:
You got the MMX modding tools you liar 
yup and for the low low price of $1,500 or $75 a month
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Kronos1000
Promising
Supreme Hero
Fryslân Boppe
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posted January 09, 2015 09:17 PM |
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By the way, Ubi-Nox said this about Hero classes:
Quote:
Not supposed to answer this one, but since it is coming soon: you will see next week 
Nice! It's something I'm really curious about.
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Hwær cwom mearg? Hwær cwom mago?
Hwær cwom maþþumgyfa? - 'The Wanderer'
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 09, 2015 09:20 PM |
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted January 09, 2015 11:12 PM |
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Finally some info on hero classes? Cool! 
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted January 10, 2015 12:03 AM |
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alcibiades said:
I disagree with you that H3 got it right, H3 system was terribly imbalanced - you always wanted Earth Magic no matter what, and Fire Magic was far worse than the other schools - in fact, Fire Magic was the only school where you could get fairly good effect from most spells with no mastery (most critically: A key spell like Blind worked perfectly well without mastery). But even with a better spell distribution than was arguably the case in H3, the inherent problem of such a system is that you don't have much motivation to pick more than one or maybe two spell schools - when every school has a bit of everything, why pick more schools?
H5 spell system was much better but suffered from a general issue with the H5 skill system that you generally got too few skills (only 5 skills compared to 8 in H3, not counting the class skill) and that levels were too far between once you hit level 20, which meant that you generally didn't have quite the option for multi-picking as the system catered for.
might not have presented my argument very well :/
what i meant is that i feel h3 got the concept what i really love. picking a school based on what overall strategy you're going for rather than the type of spells your want. defensive? earth and water. offensive? air and fire. want to mix it up? air and earth for that awesome mass haste + slow combo (love that one).
Saying you won't need more than one school is all about balancing and what you want with your hero. i can get many things with earth magic, but only certain nieches, like slowing or increasing defensive powers while offensive upgrades and large area damage will be unavailable (effectively) unless i invest in that. just like in h5, if i want a more well-balanced hero i will have to invest in more schools either way.
OT: nothing new or really interesting as others have said other than "more news soon". gotta complain about the use of smilies though. makes the entire article feel unprofessional 
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 10, 2015 09:03 AM |
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kiryu133 said:
might not have presented my argument very well :/
what i meant is that i feel h3 got the concept what i really love. picking a school based on what overall strategy you're going for rather than the type of spells your want. defensive? earth and water. offensive? air and fire. want to mix it up? air and earth for that awesome mass haste + slow combo (love that one).
Well then I just don't understand your conclusion, because this is imo. exactly what H5 had and what H3 did not have. Sure, Earth Magic did have a toning towards defence (Slow, Shield, Stone Skin), but at the same time you had spells like Meteor Shower, Implosion and Resurrection, which were as offence oriented as anything. Similarly, spells like Blind, Misfortune and Fire Shield in Fire Magic could as easily be described as being defensive, and with their blend of buffs, debuffs and direct damage, all H3 schools are very much all round.
Quite on the opposite, the entire idea of H5 schools are that they cater to a specific strategy. Sure, that does give you limitations within each school, but that's exactly what's making it strategic imo.
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What will happen now?
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Avonu
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Embracing light and darkness
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posted January 10, 2015 11:11 AM |
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Why everybody forget about Heroes 4 and its magic schools?
Not only it have the most skill levels (for bad or good) but it also have specialized magic disciplines: Life - blessing and healing, Death - curses and necromancy, Nature - summoning, Chaos - destruction, Order - illusion and overpowered spells .
Not to mention synergy between them (Nature + Death). Heroes 5 was step back compared to Heroes 4: less schools, less spells, light and magic were far better not only per se but also while used by might heroes (Knight and Demon Lord), while destruction and summoning didn't do much in mid and late games.
____________
"When someone desires information, they come to me."
"Details are everything."
Pipiru piru piru pipiru pi!
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 10, 2015 12:18 PM |
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I disagree.
First of all, the number of schools SHOULD not matter. It DOES matter under certain circumstances, but it SHOULD not. Because the content of magic schools should NOT be mutually exclusive (and wasn't even in HoMM 5). Magic schools should be THEMED spells, but not giving some kind of strategy on a silver platter.
The HoMM 5 "Schools" are, imo, rather stupid. "Destructive" Magic "summons" stuff as well: Ice Bolt? Arcane Arrow? Meteor Shower? Is there a difference between those and "Magic Fist"?It would have made sense to make a difference between "Ongoing Summons" and "Instant Summons" and between "Buff" and "Debuff".
But where is the fun in working only with Debuffs? What is with adventure spells, terrain spells, weather spells (rain? Reduce movement, Lightning spells do +X damage, No Immolation effects, Fire does -y damage)?
So a "school" should have a certain array of spells, themed, but broadly spread, flavored. but usable, with strengths and weaknesses (example for a weakness: with Dark you would miss instant direct damage spells and direct damage spells).
The problem isn't spells and magic schools; the problem is accepting that the way of the magic hero is WORKING with spells, which means, the SUPPORT skills make all the difference.
That's where HoMM 3 erred.
Example: Imagine that external mana-refill opportunities would be scarce. Magic well? Regenerates, say, 40 points only. Mage Guild? 10 points per level and turn. And now imagine the normal mana regeration rate being the Knowledge value (artifacts not counting), Mysticism, giving x2, x5 and x10 those points per turn.
And suddenly, "Might" heroes have a problem, since mana is trickling in only for them.
When looking at HoMM 5 you have to keep in mind, that there is only ONE hero type per faction, and EVERYTHING is tailor made, including the skill system.
If you want to put this on a broader basis with more hero classes per faction, you must find the right balance between all those elements, magic school skills, abilities (that also must include passives, like adding elemental damage to troop attacks, for example), magic support skills to allow TRULY magic heroes, number of spells per school, spell availability, spell duration for lasting spells (extremely important), dispel/cleanse/purge mechanisms and so on.
So another magic support skill might deal with spell duration. If lasting spells have a duration of, say 1 turn (current) plus another turn for each 5 points of Power, fractions rounded up, so that spells would have a duration of 2 for Power 1 to 5, 3 from Power 6-10 (Power-boosting artefacts not counted), and so on, again, Might heroes can only DABBLE with spells, since their instant spells are weak and their ongoing spells don't last.
There might be a skill that would add to spell duration, there might be abilities that add to it.
And now imagine, that Dispel/Purge/Cleanse wouldn't stop the effect of a spell, but reduce the duration, depending on power and skill, and once again you create room for magic heroes to work to excel in magic in a way that Might heroes just couldn't.
The bottom line is this (and consequently HoMM 5 came with ONE hero type per faction only): when you create different hero classes for a faction - usually a might and a magic hero type, maybe even some "balanced" type (Example Haven: Priest, Knight, Paladin/Inquisitor), the playing experience should NOTABLY differ. A Knight might excel in typical might stuff, primary attributes, War Machines, Offense, Defense, Tactics, COMBAT (the infamous hero attack, given via skill only) and so on, and also work with "War Cries" (kind of instant tactical commands like the HoMM 6 Rush! ability and maybe one magic school, depending on the guild (but wait, there is more to come). A magic hero should excel in spell casting and boosting their creatures with magic stuff (static shield, for example). A balanced hero might specialize in SOME might, SOME Magic, and "empire stuff", boosting economy, diplomacy, espionage, growth.
Lastly, Mage Guild and spell randomness.
Imo, the existing system makes no sense. You do not learn a magic school skill without having a spell (after all you must PRACTISE).
Therefore, simply hand out one TRADEMARK spell with every level of Magic school you learn! These spells should always be the same and NOT be part of a guild nor possibly in any other adventure thing. (It's like, "Son, if you want to learn Elrath's ways you must be able to forge healing power out of Elrath's Light".) So basically, learning Novice Light Magic would give you the ability to learn T2 Light spells, make Light spells generally better - and give you the Heal spell (top creature of a stack is healed by Power*x + Y points), a spell that wouldn't be part of any mage guild.
This would make magic school skills somewhat independent from mage guilds, but also SOMEWHAT predictable.
This would also allow MODERATE mage guilds (that wouldn't come with half of the available spells) MODERATELY priced, and it would also be an incentive to hunt for more spells.
It would solve all problems, actually, without destroying anything, because the guilds would STILL be the decisive thing in terms of replayability - it's just that even if a guild was disappointing later after a skill pick solely based on the T1 spells it gave - you wouldn't be lost: Say, you got 2 Dark Magic T1 spells in the guild. You pick Novice Dark and get the Novice Dark Trademark spell in addition, giving you 3 spells already, with two more guaranteed, ALL of those known, which would mean, you'd also be able to pick a couple of abilities, even if the guild would give no further Dark spell on the other levels!
Of course we need SOME spells per school. 3 Trademark. plus something like 3-2-2-2 for the guild (Trademark should be what would be a T1, a T2 and a T3), which would be 12 spells per school or 84 in all. For me this would be the minimum.
I do not think that spells have to be clubs that must work on "stacks". There may be a lot of spells that would work only on PART of your troops, Cores, Elites, Champions, Shooter, Walker, Flier...
There can also spells that have positive and negative effects. Instead of say, Stone Skin handing out a simple +6 or so Defense, it could give + 12 Defense, but also -1 Movement, -10 Initiative and make Fliers Walkers, just as an example: this would make it beneficial to work with different schools and allow SYNERGIES between school.
Anyway, post is too long already. That's my take on it.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 10, 2015 07:33 PM |
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I agree on spell schools. Spells unified by element/theme make way more sense than spells unified by their utility. Because the former provides more tactical variability whereas the latter is completely one dimensional. What was Destruction in Heroes 5 if nothing more than "different ways of dealing damage"? Still only limited to dealing damage!
Then I see your point in limiting the acquisition of mana and I think it would be a good idea, but I don't like your model. The point I see in it is to make players be weary of their mana usage and refilling, and in this way make efficient spending a must. But with 10 Knowledge and Expert Mysticism giving 100 mana a turn, that just simply goes to waste. So I can't agree with it. Maybe refilling sources should be percentage based, that way you keep the differences between might and magic Heroes at the Knowledge level.
Your model on spell duration is yet again not to my liking. 5 Spellpower equals one turn? That's kinda ridiculous. With the way distribution works I wouldn't even be able to get +1 spell duration in 10 levels with a Magic hero. Now imagine a Might hero, 15 levels plus? Then what, I'll have 16 Spellpower and cast 4 turn spells? So I'll have to keep a constant rotation of only 4 spells? That's absurd. I think I had enough of Heroes 6 to know that spamming the same spells every time is not the way the game should play.
Then the other issue is Dispel/Purge/Cleanse, and again I don't like your model. The end result is those spells won't be able to remove buffs/debuffs, especially in Might hero vs Magic Hero cases. That makes them useless compared to other alternatives, and then people would complain about too many useless spells. The only way I see it working that way is if it removes potency as well. Otherwise no, better off leaving them as instant removals.
Now on your Trademark spells idea. I like some parts and I dislike others, but I understand why they are like that because it's linked to other variables like total number of spells per school, number of spells awarded by the Guild per level, etc.
What I personally don't like is the concept of unobtainable spells any other way but through skilling the specific magic school. To me that's a complete turnoff from the idea of spell hunt. Obviously the spells meant to be Trademarks are to be sufficiently good to be considered "core" spells and establish a decent ground for spellcasting independent of the randomness of spell drops in the Magic Guild. But if you'll leave it at that, you'll leave such important, basic spells like T1 Heal unobtainable regardless of what parameters Heroes have. If they don't have basic Light, they will be deprived from ever getting that core spell. Then you'll have to compensate so that some kind of healing will be found in the Light school, so will you make other lesser healing spells? That's bad design that leads to absurd scenarios.
However what I do like, passionately, is the fact that picking a magic school gives you "Something". And I think we can work from here. I see two main scenarios:
- picking a magic school will grant you random spells from that school. Basic level gives 1 T1 spell, Advanced 2 T1 spells and 1 T2 spell and Expert 3 T1 Spells, 2 T2 spells and 1 T3 spell, randomly determined. The numbers are debatable, 6 spells might be too many if the total spells in that school are 12. But I would like to imagine that the number raises higher than 15 per school.
- skilling a certain school will make a limited number of spells from it "Core" and give you those spells. Basic 1 T1, Advanced 1 T1 and T2, Expert 1 T1,T2 and T3. So unlike your system, they won't be unobtainable spells, but the core status will only be obtainable by skilling. I think that's a compromise I could accept better. And what Core would mean is basically increased efficiency and utility, however you understand that, be it a calculation boost or added beneficial side effects or whatever else.
Also I don't agree with 3-2-2-2 spells given by the Guild, there should be more. But that depends on what model we imagine and how many spells there are in total so can't really make a case out of it.
I agree on the last part about Synergies between schools but I'm not sure if that example with the Stone Skin is the best one. And I'm not sure if basic spells should have drawbacks like that, especially changing flying mechanics, that's too much. After all you want to buff your army, not debuff it, and not so grossly.
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 10, 2015 07:56 PM |
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Stevie, thanks for your long answer, obviously taking the time to go through this.
One thing for clarification: all concrete values are spontaneous values without a lot of thought, so don't take them too seriously.
Secondly - very importantly - you somewhat missed the point about spell duration.
Spell duration is the single most important factor in determining how many different spells it makes sense to have. HoMM 6-like - you don't need many spells, which is wrong, when you go back to a HoMM 3 system. Obviously you need to be able to let spells last, say, 10 turns.
That's where the skill comes into play. And that's where limiting DISPELS come into play. I mean, if duration = power, that's fine, but if you cast 3 mass spells and opponent casts Mass Dispel, you don't get much out of duration.
It was difficult, if there was a spell that would reduce Might hero stats to zero or something like that.
As it is, the idea is to
a) make spells do something, but not too much
b) allow magic heroes to work on spell duration via skills and abilities
c) allow counter measures only via reducing duration, not cancelling them.
In the example a Magic hero with 12 power has basic spell duration 4. There would be a skill that would add something like +1 +1 +2 turns for each level; I also see abilities that add to the duration of schools or under certain conditions, all in all, a Magic hero would easily be able to reach spell duration 10 and more.
Now, Dispel, though, would just reduce duration by, say, -2 turns plus 2 turns per level in [X] Magic. OR -3 turns plus 1 turn per level in [X] Magic PLUS whatever a [X] Magic ability would give in addition.
Anyway. This is just me, and, please take note, completely independent from anything Ubisoft and Limbic might do or plan: it's ONLY my take on it.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 10, 2015 08:42 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 20:47, 10 Jan 2015.
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Well, as always, it depends. I feel that what you say is influenced by what you're currently testing in Heroes 7, and even if it's not I still can't possibly know what kind of magic model you're thinking of, how efficient spells are to attribute a duration, etc.
What I do get however is why you think that "casting 3 Mass buffs then the enemy follows with mass Dispel" works in the former's disadvantage. But don't you think that Dispel not working as a removal but as a spell turn subtraction works in the latter's advantage? To me this doesn't seem a solution but a weight switch. That's why I said that should it work that way there should be a power dampening effect too.
Say a Magic Hero casts a 10 duration Haste. I'm magic also but my Dispel is weaker and only removes 7 turns. What's my benefit from casting that for the next 3 turns? - 0! It only takes effect AFTER the Haste's gone. So the immediate effect of my Dispel is removed, and that's why I feel that it turn into a quite big disadvantage for me.
Then there are other variables like, what happens, in your model, if there are multiple buffs/debuffs casted and then you cast Dispell? Does it subtract from all of them or from one at a time? What about if in my example above, after I cast Dispel, the enemy would recast Haste? Would it reset to 10 or add to 13? And stuff like that. And if we would want to go deeper into it and talk about balance, we'd need actual numbers, and that's our limit, or at least mine as I don't have access to those.
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 10, 2015 10:12 PM |
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I think you are right, and I agree with you.
Theory has its limits, and you need to test things.
I'm just sick of the do-or-die spells and the might heroes being really good at magic.
I imagine Might having the advantage initially due to the primary skills. Magic would be on the defensive, naturally. A spell like Mass Haste doesn't gain at that point, for example, because you have no real offensive power in comparison. However, spell after spell, Magic gets even - and better.
Even stuff like Puppet Master - you CAN make the spell so that the Puppet becomes pretty weak while its controlled.
Mind you, this is all based on the assumption of more than one Hero type per faction.
Oh, and believe me, since I'm NDA bound, everything I discuss here is completely personal and has no connection to what may happen with HoMM 7.
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted January 11, 2015 09:20 AM |
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Regardnig dispell:
Magic heroes must not be too powerfull. Dispell is there to prevent that, while still allows spells to be powerfull. Imo it's quite good that Might hero can cast it, but make it dispell only lvl 1 spells of 1 stack. If you have magic hero casting mass slow for eg., so what if oponent dispells one stack ... it dosen't save him much, but it allows him to combat it some. If he can dispell full army, then he must have light magic + mass perk.
Powerfull spells like blind must be lvl 3 - so out of reach for basic dispell, and also to prevent might heroes to not be able to cast it. In H3, it was so that blind was lvl 2 spell that might hero could cast it, and that was no good. It was pemier spell for might heroes. If i had Blind in magic guild, i would almost always go Might (if there was still option at this point).
I play mostly on LAN versus my friends and brother, and i can tell you a lot of matches were: Blind-Dispell; Blind-Dispell; Blind-Dispell... Effectively locking magic hero out of his most powerfull stacks OR locking him out of spells. Since Might hero had more stats, my army (or oponent army depends on what side i was) would win.
H5 was much better in this regard, as spells like blind were higher on the level list, and prevented that.
I think the best way should be this: Might heroes scale early very well and are good on rushes. This is because their stats give them advantage, which is most powerfull on relatively small or medium size armies, but dose not scale percentage wise that much on big armies. While Magic heroes would be other way around. At beginning it's not very powerfull to cast stone skinn on one small stack. But when armies get bigger is off-the-charts. Magic heroes would work to slowly collect spells and gain power aswell. And once you get that puppet master, for eg. you're nearly invincible, commanding entire enemy champion stacks for several turns, or that stone skinn that boosts 10 times more defence than simmilar level Might hero can do. (unless oponent takes some messures to prevent that ofc - like artifacts or have magic hero aswell). The bigger the armies, the more potent the magic. Ofc there are always exceptions, like damaging magics, or some might skills, that scale well into late game.
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted January 11, 2015 09:55 AM |
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Galaad said:
I see something new.
Ubi-Nox said:
We understood we made bad choices with Heroes VI but we are back with a new over-motivated team.
Then why is Erwan still there
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Avonu
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Embracing light and darkness
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posted January 11, 2015 01:32 PM |
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Don't be so rough on him. Franchise wasn't scrapped after Heroes 6, but it's still developed. We have: Heroes 7, HoMM3 HD and Might and Magic X, even if it's Ashan with all its flaws.
Someone had to convince Ubisoft to give green light to these projects... and to keep his job. ;P
____________
"When someone desires information, they come to me."
"Details are everything."
Pipiru piru piru pipiru pi!
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted January 11, 2015 03:52 PM |
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Avonu said:
Don't be so rough on him.
He was rough on us, Limbic's quest has begun
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted January 12, 2015 12:33 AM |
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Edited by Avirosb at 00:34, 12 Jan 2015.
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LizardWarrior said:
Then why is Erwan still there
He's the motivator.
Just because you're good at motivating it doesn't mean you're full of good ideas.
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cleglaw
Famous Hero
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posted January 12, 2015 01:15 AM |
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i really respect the courage of h6 team, but i also want to bash them to the ground for buggy release and such... lol. lets hope h7 team will really learn from previous titles.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 12, 2015 02:23 AM |
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
And since Ubi-Nox said some articles are ready for this week, I'm feeling optimistic about a new post today.
