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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted February 23, 2015 12:01 PM |
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Sandro400 said:
It's not your attitude towards Dungeon, it's that you're becoming... "bolder" and "bolder" with each day. I think you know what I mean ^^
I really have no idea what you mean, unless your vision for HC is something like the Supreme Temple of Ubisoft where developers hold high authority and none should dare challenge or question them, lol
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted February 23, 2015 12:33 PM |
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alcibiades said:
dark-whisperer said:
red_flag said:
Voted? It's wasn’t a voting, it was twisting of ours arms.
Oh, no. Developers gave us chance to vote for line ups, ouch, my hand hurts from all the twisting. Stop bullying us by giving us choises, please 
Nah, he is kind of right, though.
I agree, for every unit you were thankful for there were 1-2 you would likely dislike or even despise  I did not like the structure of the vote, it would have been better to let people vote about the units they want in the lineup and let the devs create the lineup with that data in mind. It would be a matter of creating a coherent lineup with their balance and our preferences in mind. It would also make it possible for medusae, manticores and minos to be in the same lineup, if the community wished for it.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Articun
Supreme Hero
As i dream, so shall it be!
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posted February 23, 2015 12:40 PM |
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Well, i for one would have liked to see a lineup were the Faceless was a champion unit and the Hydra an Elite. I'd also liked to have seen a lineup that included the Shadow Witch or Matriarch (I mean Dark elves are Matriarchal but there is no proof of that in the lineup nowadays).
If we were to have only 2 out of 8 units of Dark elves, i'd much preferred it to be one core and one elite:
Core
1. Assassin (ranged with poison)
2. Troglodyte or Blood Furies (With limited shots with chakram and the ability to strike and return
3. Shadow Lurker
The early shooters give the Dungeon its theme of hitting within the shadows from a safe distance. Shadow Lurkers fit in with the current lore of Malassa having eyes everywhere to know everything and is the closest thing we can have to a beholder
Elite
1. Minotaur
2. Faceless or Hydra or Manticore
3. Shadow Witch or Medusa
Champion
1. Black Dragon
2. Faceless or Hydra
There is no need for Hydra to be the absolute champion unit. It could be the stronger elite. The fact that Faceless only remain an elite is a mystery to me. They are supposed to be on par with true angels like Michael (ok, practically Archangel) and now they are even weaker than a mere fusion of Human/Angel that never gets to the status of a true angel? I don't buy it.
I think there should have been a lineup that offered the Faceless as champion and the Hydra as Elite and vice-versa. Also there should have been the ability to choose between the ranged units in the form of a powerful sorceress unit like the shadow witch and a melee shooter like the medusa instead of mixing them up as a melee base and a magic upgrade.
The strider i find unneeded. The Nightmare as implemented and without so much as a sketch, i found horrid.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 23, 2015 12:43 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 12:44, 23 Feb 2015.
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I also agree. An individual selection would've been better. That way people would've had the liberty to make an unrestricted choice rather than voting for which package of compromise they can accept better.
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Rakshasa92
Supreme Hero
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posted February 23, 2015 12:49 PM |
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Ok....
Extreme ultimate LMFAO -->@@ HOMM7 Necropolis.
THAT abilities are a new invention of the word DULL, most of the creatures have only UNDEAD (which is the same as having no ability at all) and the lich and vampire are still increadible Warcraft wanabee's...
The non-upgraded ghost isn't even spectral it seems. STUPID!
Most dull town in the history of HOMM, but that we already knew, so actually nothing new!
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted February 23, 2015 01:03 PM |
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are we seriously back to discussing how the votes should have been done?
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 23, 2015 01:56 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 13:57, 23 Feb 2015.
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On the abilities, I myself consider that some Spiderpolis creatures have terrible abilities, or a lack a good ones at least.
Skeletons are fodder, good.
Ghosts have Vigilance for a reason that escapes me. Not only is an ability also shared by the Vampires, but why not Incorporeal?
Then, Spiders have Withering Venom which is intuitive, but so would be a Webbing ability as an one time paralyze ability.
This is worrisome for me because it means that with Core creeping there's no way to avoid casualties. 3 Melees, no range and no defensive abilities.
The Vampires' abilities are ok.
The Liches' Staff of Disruption seems to be the Death Cloud and I hope it does work that way, applying aoe damage and not only the debuff.
Lamasu is the meatshield with an aoe debuff around himself which I don't mind all that much.
So I'm good with the Elite tier.
The way Nightmarish Presence is described makes me think that the Reapers have an aoe paralysis effect on enemy Core creatures. Probably OP if that's really the case. Fatal Strike on the other hand seems underwhelming. If it's like the Death Stare ability, it's kinda useless. What I would suggest instead is a passive that would make the Reaper's victims unable to get healed or resurrected back. It would fit his Reaper role better and would be a more worthwhile ability to have.
The Dragons' Soul Flaying Ability to me spells reduced health pool. So if a creature's max hp is 60, it would get reduced to 50 - I'm ok with it if it works that way. Soul Reaver might come in handy to Magic heroes if mana would ever be an issue.
So overall, I think Core and Champion abilities could use some improvement. Especially Core. My guess is that creeping losses might be too much to handle, even given Necromancy. Will have to test gameplay to find out.
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted February 23, 2015 02:11 PM |
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Stevie said:
This is worrisome for me because it means that with Core creeping there's no way to avoid casualties. 3 Melees, no range and no defensive abilities.
sounds to me like their trying to balance necromancy since you won't gain a large amount of extra skellies until elite tier.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 23, 2015 02:12 PM |
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God, didn't you play enough HoMM 6 avoid-all-losses boredom to actually appreciate the fact hat you may finally have to work a bit again to MINIMIZE losses. What the hell are hero level-ups, skills, spells and abilities good for, when your creatures can manage fine by themselves, thank you very much?
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Articun
Supreme Hero
As i dream, so shall it be!
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posted February 23, 2015 02:12 PM |
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My set of Questions, worries on Necropolis
Here are my questions and propositions regarding Necropolis:
1. I like the new black & white theme with the toned down green and purple
a. Some tones of red or copper would make some units look much better and increase diversion
2. Most units have no real difference in basic and upgraded form
a. That is very true for bone dragon and ghost dragon that just becomes transparent. The 3D model look like a toy rather than a true dragon Skeleton. The ghost form should resemble a live dragon image in spectral form rather than just see through bones
b. From the basic units, only the Skeleton is successful in upgraded form. The Spider looks nice in artworks but in 3D, the differences are rather lost and seems like just a dis-colorization. The Ghost is very similar and why isn't the dress black as in the artwork. Not all ghosts are necessary to be see-through
c. The Liches need to look more like mummies in basic form, as seen from the necromancer hero in Necropolis page. The upgraded form should be skeletal and a mix between Heroes V & VI
d. The Vampires are fine, but a less armored basic form is preferred, with a face lift to look less like Arthas and some red added to his colors. A more noble look rather than a knight is also preferred. The upgraded form can look like a warrior but with less armor. Vampires are mobile units and as such they don't need to be armored to the teeth. They are after all, above fear of death. Also, more plain armor rather than full with trinkets.
e. The Lamasu looks way better in artwork rather than 3D. Please tweaks some details in the 3D model to make it look less weird and have better proportions. Also some more differences in the upgraded form such as rotten flesh or protruding bones here and there would be appreciated. Make the hair more fluid to stop looking like spikes.
3. Most units don't have enough abilities.
a. Very true for all basic Necro units that only have the ability Undead. Be creative, give each of them something.
b. Bring back the incorporeal ability from heroes V to the Ghost and bone dragons. It was a pain but made the units very unique and challenging. Make the Skeletons have unlimited retaliation. They are puppets, they cannot be thrown back by any effect to stop attacking, they have no will of their own. Give spiders the webbing ability like the Skeletons had in heroes VI, that way, they become much more useful and unique.
c. Give Liches the ability to raise dead and some harmful spells as well
4. Necromancy will work like previous titles / The longer the battle goes on the better for the Necromancers
a. If that is true and necromancy works after battle, how does that help the battle style?
b. Will there be specific spells to raise dead for the necromancers?
c. How do you ensure that the whole play style will be different than other factions if there will be limited ability to raise your units from your own stacks or raise dead from enemy stacks?
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 23, 2015 03:06 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 15:13, 23 Feb 2015.
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JollyJoker said:
God, didn't you play enough HoMM 6 avoid-all-losses boredom to actually appreciate the fact hat you may finally have to work a bit again to MINIMIZE losses.
God, if you would actually get what I'm trying to say for once and not jump at me. I don't fear losing troops, I fear being UNABLE to MINIMIZE losses. If the only way to avoid casualties is to work with one stacks then the gameplay for me is at a loss.
Just look at the other cores from the other factions. Haven - Shooter, turtling Sentinels and unlimited retaliation, top that with a Priestess too; Academy - Gargoyle magic immune, Golem slow immune, Shooter WITH FREAKING REPAIR; Sylvan - Shooter, Pixie NEGATES RETALIATION; Dungeon - SHOOTER AGAIN, freaking BACKSTAB (no retal?), tanky Troglodytes.
What does Necropolis have? - NOTHING, ZERO, NIL, ZILCH, NADA DE NADA, NIMIC FRATE ZERO BARAT. Not even a healing Warmachine. No shooter, Unupgraded creatures 0 abilities + they can be HURT by healing so vs Haven this is complete suicide. This is why I said:
My guess is that creeping losses might be too much to handle, even given Necromancy. Will have to test gameplay to find out.
So unless Raise Dead is a spell in every hero's Spellbook right from the get-go, or if the outcome of creeping would result unfavorably even with Necromancy, you cannot avoid loosing troops beyond planning attacks and working with one stacks - which the other line-ups can also do and even a million times better with shooters and heal. I imagine that Necro creatures do not have good stats compared to the other factions, but average, and if they can't get an advantage in numbers then their gameplay is totally screwed.
JollyJocker said:
What the hell are hero level-ups, skills, spells and abilities good for, when your creatures can manage fine by themselves, thank you very much?
How do you know they DO manage fine by themselves? If anything the roles (3 melees) and the abilities (0, and otherwise weak if upgrades count) spell for the contrary. Like, with what I see in the Spiderpolis Core line-up, I expect them to lose each and every single time versus one of the other Core line-ups presented so far, without there being ANYTHING to do about it. And that's my main concern - underpowered, nothing you can do about it.
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted February 23, 2015 03:20 PM |
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Stevie said:
Like, with what I see in the Spiderpolis Core line-up, I expect them to lose each and every single time versus one of the other Core line-ups presented so far, without there being ANYTHING to do about it. And that's my main concern - underpowered, nothing you can do about it.
isn't that kinda the pint of necro though? weak (early) units that would lose in a straight up fight but you are encouraged to get so many it seldom is a straight up fight? weak early-game kinda fits necros power-creep playstyle, right?
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Articun
Supreme Hero
As i dream, so shall it be!
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posted February 23, 2015 03:27 PM |
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kiryu133 said:
Stevie said:
Like, with what I see in the Spiderpolis Core line-up, I expect them to lose each and every single time versus one of the other Core line-ups presented so far, without there being ANYTHING to do about it. And that's my main concern - underpowered, nothing you can do about it.
isn't that kinda the pint of necro though? weak (early) units that would lose in a straight up fight but you are encouraged to get so many it seldom is a straight up fight? weak early-game kinda fits necros power-creep playstyle, right?
That would make for very hard playstyle though and it would make you want to get to elite tier much faster.
The Necropolis units may be a bit weaker but not by much. And since they are weak, they should have some extra abilities to fill their lack. Incorporeal was one of those. The skeletons webbing of heroes VI was another
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 23, 2015 03:36 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 15:43, 23 Feb 2015.
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Weak but many should be the Necro formula. But what if they are so weak that they can't become many? Because arguably you would need at the very least to maintain a balance of what you lose versus what you gain with Necromancy, or else you would suffer progressively worse casualties with each battle. Keep in mind that not only they are weak in stats, but they're also all melee, and their abilities are crap - so by the look of it there's a very heavy incentive on losing troops.
That's why I said that Incorporeal and maybe even a Web/Cocoon abilty might help with that, to have at least SOME defensive mechanisms. But without knowing how weak they are and how many they are and what the Hero can do, there's no way to tell for sure.
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Wellplay
Famous Hero
Poland Stronk
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posted February 23, 2015 03:37 PM |
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Edited by Wellplay at 15:41, 23 Feb 2015.
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Overpowered necropolis good , not overpowered necropolis bad.
Edit: Or rather overpowerd bad, not overpowered also bad
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The_Green_Drag
Supreme Hero
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posted February 23, 2015 03:41 PM |
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You can always pick up some neutral units to act as a meat shield so your numbers can grow with necromancy skill. Or you can just buy another hero and use those units.
I agree that necro should have an early game disadvantage compared to other factions. Also, I'm impressed they went back to having only one shooter, so I'm going to enjoy necropolis this time. Not so sure about the lich ability though, doesn't sound like death cloud. But I am glad ghosts do not have the annoying incorporeal ability from H5.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 23, 2015 03:41 PM |
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted February 23, 2015 03:42 PM |
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Edited by Maurice at 15:43, 23 Feb 2015.
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Stevie said:
How do you know they DO manage fine by themselves? If anything the roles (3 melees) and the abilities (0, and otherwise weak if upgrades count) spell for the contrary. Like, with what I see in the Spiderpolis Core line-up, I expect them to lose each and every single time versus one of the other Core line-ups presented so far, without there being ANYTHING to do about it. And that's my main concern - underpowered, nothing you can do about it.
You don't know how Necromancy is going to work out. For all we know, Necromancers are capable of mitigating losses during battle better than any of the other factions. So what if they kill half your stacks before they clash into the enemy ranks? If you can raise most (ranging from 50-100% of the lost units) in the mean time, the enemy is in a dire situation regardless. Shooters and casters are notoriously bad in melee fights, specific units ignored, so when those melee Undead reach them, they're in for some trouble. If that's the case, fighting against Undead early game means you will have to kill them before they kill you.
Truth be said, this considers a Hero behind the Undead, which is not the case for Undead treasure guards while creeping.
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted February 23, 2015 03:49 PM |
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Stevie said:
Weak but many should be the Necro formula. But what if they are so weak that they can't become many? Because arguably you would need at the very least to maintain a balance of what you lose versus what you gain with Necromancy, or else you would suffer progressively worse casualties with each battle. Keep in mind that not only they are weak in stats, but they're also all melee, and their abilities are crap - so by the look of it there's a very heavy incentive on losing troops.
That's why I said that Incorporeal and maybe even a Web/Cocoon abilty might help with that, to have at least SOME defensive mechanisms. But without knowing how weak they are and how many they are and what the Hero can do, there's no way to tell for sure.
Stevie said:
They don't have to be overpowered or underpowered. They just have to be balanced...
necromancy is by design a very op ability. but by making creeping hard early on power creep (which is what necro should be doing) will simply take longer to have any noticable effect. it's a way to balance them: weak early, strong late. there is also the fact that necro tend to have very good "healing" in battle which should certainly help.
besides, didn't h3 necro only have one ranged tier 5 unit? how did you ever creep with those
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Wellplay
Famous Hero
Poland Stronk
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posted February 23, 2015 03:57 PM |
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Edited by Wellplay at 15:58, 23 Feb 2015.
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Stevie just hates fact that, his favorite faction is not overpowered all game anymore.
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