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| Thread: Ashan Creature Lineups |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · NEXT» |
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted March 15, 2015 08:19 PM |
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Ashan Creature Lineups
It has long been my belief that heroes is all about letting us play with cool mythological creatures that people know, recognize and expect. A pop culture fulfillment so to say. At the same time, since ubi took over the series I can't help but notice a high amount of complaints about the inclusion of numerous racial units(elves in particular) in the lineups or 'Ashanification' of existing creatures into something.. different. Obviously, I do not favour repeating the classic lineups ad infinitum nor am I averse to seeing new units everytime we get a new heroes game. I also cannot overlook the fact that ubi's lineup diversity has improved since H5 but there are still a number of things I am not happy about.
Regarding the racial-themed creatures I see two issues:
One, when we get more than 2 such creatures in the lineup. In my mind, they always come at the expense of a cool mythological unit that could have been in their place, something far more exciting. Or at least less generic than them.. Haven has always suffered from overpopulation of humans but.. it's kind of different. I don't see why someone would want half the lineup to consist of let's say dwarf with bow, dwarf with axe, dwarf with spear, dwarf with hammer. Or elf with bow, elf with swords, elf with staff, ghost elf with vines in sylvan's case.
Two, when some of those units do not serve a specific, unique purpose or gameplay. For instance.. what exactly does the dungeon stalker bring on the table? A crossbow that shoots through enemies? The marksman already does that. So what's the point if it's the same unit with a different skin? How does it justify its existence? But at least dungeon had the good taste of limiting the dark elves to 2 units..
Regarding Ashanification:
I am hardly against seeing a new spin on known units or entirely new units. I am not satisfied however by the way ubi goes about it, at least in some cases.
For instance.. The cerberi having 2 heads? Or the fact that they turned a glass cannon with a multi-headed, no retaliation attack into a low growth tank that cannot afford to attack because it would die too fast? In a faction that is all about attacking?
Or should I mention the vampires that changed from a somewhat frail but offensive life drainer into a tank with crappy speed and even crappier life drain? The whole vampire appeal has been in its mobility and life drain and it was deprived of both. Thank goodness that H7 has made amends there.
That was not a new spin on a fan favourite but something entirely different. It went way beyond what people have come to love and expect. Another example is the medusa that became an ice destructive coral naga. Its petrification special has been swapped with a mesmerizing gaze that would be more suitable to a succubus or something. So.. other than their looks, what exactly do they have in common with their previous selves? I suppose what I do not like is major thematic or gameplay changes on iconic units.
And then there are the lore racial excuses.. Valkyrie? Bunch of reborn dwarves. Fire giant? Yep, dwarves. I bet if we get trolls they will be dwarves too. So.. why is the lore so intrusive and eye-rolling? Same could be said about the grim reapers being vampires, vampires being evolves liches, cyclopes and goblins being failed orc experiments. I'd rather have no explanations than a bad excuse of an explanation. This is not as important as having a solid gameplay but come on.
What do you think?
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted March 15, 2015 08:58 PM |
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I agree in the case of Cerberus and Medusa where they just use a well-known name for creatures that don't posess iconic ablities (still I'm somewhat ok with Medusas anyway, they played a joke of turning Himiko to the stone). I'm strongly against Grim riders as vampires, 50/50 with lich => vampire.
No problem with Dwarves however, I see it as a good enough explanation. They're technically not dwarves, that's the main point.
Regarding racial units - I do agree that 2 is enough. You can have more in games like DoC but in Heroes, every slot is precious.
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted March 15, 2015 09:33 PM |
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serious hat on.
This is pretty much going to say what i always say: the problem is that Ubi forces the game to adapt to the lore when it should be the lore that adapts to the lore. That's the reason we get so many weird, stupid and downright bizarre descriptions to everything and their mother. Lore is the most important thing in Ashan. The first thing they seem to decide about the games is lore. I don't think i need to explain how terrible this is, but there it is.
Of course this only answers one part of of one of your questions so i guess i'll have to continue.
regarding racial themed factions:
I really dislike factions having more then one "intelligent" creature. this comes with a couple of exceptions like Haven being the "human" faction and as such the faction we are supposed to compare the rest of the game with. This is naturally done best by making it a majority human town. Then there are factions with more than one "intelligent" creature or "leader-species" like h3 dungeon(trogs, medusae, Minotaur), and rampart(dwarves, elves). other than these exceptions there is no excuse to remove slots that could've been taken by something cool or much more interesting. Necro and sanctuary are borderline exceptions due to undead and the primary species being rather monstrous on its own. This is all there is to it: at most one faction creature per faction unless there are more than one of them or it's haven.
about the "Ashanification..."
If you name a creature after something, make sure it's recognizably what it is named after! Cerberus has three heads. that's what makes Cerberus Cerberus (well, that and a neck filled with living snakes but whatever). remove a head and it cease to be Cerberus so don't call it Cerberus. This is, of course, true with everything. Valkyries are not dead warriors returning to fight. They are female demi-gods searching for worthy warriors fallen in battle in order for them to return to fight. They are called Einhärjar(would make a great unit btw *hint hint*). There are of course exceptions once again, or rather an exception: vampires. Vampires have a very strange relation with popular culture (though vampire/Arthas knights are definitely not a good idea either way).
Bottom line, snow Ubi. I don't have anything against Ashan as a concept but i don't really like it either. Ubi, you haven't given Ashan the respect it needs. All Ashan is to you is some bullsnow world where everything is as bog-standard it could possibly be (dark elves? really?) in order to appeal to as big a market as possible by copying the most bog-standard, popular stuff you can get your hands on without realizing what makes these things popular. You don't care about Ashan. You don't give a rats ass If it's an interesting setting. You just want an easily digestible world without any depth or character of its own. Guess what? You've succeeded. You have made the most boring universe i've had the displeasure of experiencing. I feel sad for those who has to work in a universe whose creators doesn't even take seriously but you know the worst part? It could've been great if you'd had any respect for it and the history of the Franchise.
Dark elves? Why? snowing why? of all the things you could've put in charge of dungeon (*cough*minotaurs*cough*) you pick the most overused, snowty stereotype imaginable and show us exactly what is wrong with this setting and just to rub salt you flood dungeon in them. grow a goddamn spine and dare to respect the old universe. you don't need to follow it blindly, but you sure as hell need to respect it.
sorry, went on somewhat of a rant there...
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted March 15, 2015 09:33 PM |
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To me, "the Ashanification", as you call it, is simply changing the old heroes lineups, with more "normal" or standard take on things...
I know, I probably lost you, so let me explain:
In most fantasy games, and also settings, the "faction" is determined by the race. To this end, faction and race are interchangable terms. When playing something like Warcraft 3 for eg., you have 4 "races": Human, Orc, Night Elf, Undead. Those are not factions, since every player plays a diferent faction, even if they have the same race. Similar situation is with Warhammer: Fantasy. You play a race. So all your units represent a single race, or creatures affiliated or close to that race.
Heroes before Ubisoft, took things diferently. You have no "races", but instead you have factions. Each faction has assortment of mythical creatures, that are linked one way or another, more by their characteristic, than by the "race" they come from (example: all evil units together, from various mythology). This is the reason you can have for example, Greek Titan, Indian Naga and English Gremlin in the same faction. They got nothing in common other than they are magical.
More traditional use of this would be, if you would put for instance all creatures from Greek mythology in one faction, in which case you would have: Cerebrus, Medusa, Titan, Minotaur, Hydra etc. in one faction. But NWC didn't do that. The result was the feeling, that factions are just random assortments of magical creatures, taken from all over the place. Indeed this allowed high mobility of creatures between factions from one game to another (griffin being in "warlock" town in original game, but then moved to "castle" or "haven" later on, gargoyle moved from the same place to "tower" etc.).
Granted, the lore and appearence of creatures was altered a bit to make them "fit" into one particular faction, Ubisoft perhaps still taught creature assortments were "too random", and opted for giving them more "race identity". Indeed when you played Stronghold in old HoMM games you played Stronghold, in Ubisoft games, you play "the orcs".
What made them think this is better way (it can indeed be, and is part of personal preference), is unknown. But I have a hunch (as I stated multiple times), it was mostly caused by "shift in fantasy culture" and arrival of The Lord of the Rings. Tolkien was afterall, inventor so to say, of this "race system", when in his book created eleborate races of elves, orcs, humans, dwarfs etc., and gave each of them a language, customs, religion, culture, their own homeland and origins. Thus the "High Fantasy" was born, and replaced the "Sword and Sorcery" and fairytales of old. The Sword and Sorcery, which didn't have this "races", and on which old HoMM games took inspiration from.
This is what "Ashanification" of HoMM is. It is actualy "Tolkienization" 
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted March 15, 2015 09:39 PM |
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Zombi_Wizzard said:
What made them think this is better way (it can indeed be, and is part of personal preference), is unknown. But I have a hunch (as I stated multiple times), it was mostly caused by "shift in fantasy culture" and arrival of The Lord of the Rings. Tolkien was afterall, inventor so to say, of this "race system", when in his book created eleborate races of elves, orcs, humans, dwarfs etc., and gave each of them a language, customs, religion, culture, their own homeland and origins. Thus the "High Fantasy" was born, and replaced the "Sword and Sorcery" and fairytales of old. The Sword and Sorcery, which didn't have this "races", and on which old HoMM games took inspiration from.
This is what "Ashanification" of HoMM is. It is actualy "Tolkienization"
this "race system" is also the most criticized part of his books though...
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Zombi_Wizzard
Famous Hero
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posted March 15, 2015 09:57 PM |
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kiryu133 said:
this "race system" is also the most criticized part of his books though...
Yep. It is the single most defining part of his books tho, and part which seperates his works from classical fantasy. People that don't like Tolkien, mostly don't like him because of this, while fans like him also because of this.
I would also like to add that Tolken also started the trend of altering calssincal mythological beings to suit his "races". See original elf and Tolkien's elf. So Ubisoft's Cerebrus is similar example of this same practice. Well this is not completly true, as you can spot instances of this before (indeed mythology changed over time greatly on itself), but not in the scale of Tolkien.
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Greenlore
Known Hero
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posted March 16, 2015 12:56 PM |
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I agree about the racial units.
2 units of the main race is generally acceptable and only if they fulfill a different "class" that would be cool to have in the game anyway.
For example the elves have the elven archer and the elven druid,which is fine,because druids and archers are things that are worth including on their own and they are both fitting for an elf.
However the elven blade dancer goes a bit overboard in my opinion as they are basically another elf but with swords(same goes for the emerald knight).
Generally the only factions that should have more than 2 of their main race are haven(because that is kinda their thing,being the human faction and having humans with different classes as their units),necropolis(because different types of undead),Inferno(same deal as necropolis,just with demons) and depending on how you see it stronghold(if you count goblins,orcs and cyclopses as the same race,but there shouldn't be more than 2 orcs in the lineup).
As for ashanification of units:
It doesn't bother me that much,I mean most of the time I don't even bother with the backgrounds of the different units.
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted March 16, 2015 01:48 PM |
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I applaud the efforts to make Heroes have a coherent universe and transcend the nice but senseless pop culture soup it was in that aspect.
The lore already serves gameplay, otherwise we wouldnt have Medusas in Dungeon. The problem is when you want to completely break it because it doesnt fullfill your personal fantasy (case in point, the lich not having a skull face)
I like elves. I dont mind the H5 Sylvan/Dungeon. The dwarves can go sink im the lave though. They are fat and ugly
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted March 16, 2015 01:55 PM |
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I like elves when they don't pretend to be Wood Elves from Warhammer.
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Sligneris
Supreme Hero
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posted March 16, 2015 01:58 PM |
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It would be nice if they decided to give us a full-fledged Ashan game - H5 was the closest with 8 out of 9 factions. To have that in Heroes 7, we'd need expansions - Inferno, Fortress and Sanctuary, preferably in this order.
Actually, Inferno expansion does sound like something that would sell pretty well. 
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fuChris
Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
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posted March 16, 2015 02:55 PM |
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Well, in other high-fantasy settings there is atleast some flux. In Warhammer and LotR elves and dwarws are a dying race. Sure, it may take millenia untill they kick the bucket but atleast they die off.
Things need to change to make things less stale. Culture, geography, influence of factions, influence of gods(I miss this the most), these all can change.
In Enroth the barbarians, wizards, necromancers each had a period in which they were the rulers of the land even if not for a long time. Factions would have serious losses and in turn got a chance to change the lineups. Hell that was the whole point of Axeoth. I know making a game about genocide is not an attracting thought but atleast things would change. Current Ashan is stale as fuuuuuck. I don't know how many centuries old the current Ashan is but it feels like things haven't changed a thing since day one.
Sylvan can easily lose most elves and have them replaced by dendroids and a few humans leaving only 1 elf unit. Same with Dungeon. Dungeon is teeming with creatures wanting to take over from the darkelves. The elves can still stay the chosen race of the gods but htey don't have to rule their factions(same with faceless).
Orcs are already a diverse group but since Ashan is filled with dragonblood crystals they can easily mutate into new creatures.(Centaur like combination of goblin and wolf anyone?) Also, if they settle into a more stable society they could incorporate their own mythological units and not just the wyvern. Elves won't have pegasi? Stroghold here they come!
Academy is probably the most easy to mix up. Djinns(or Efreeti!!!!!) take over and use mostly spirit creatures in one game, the next game wizards rise up and return to a more golem based faction.
Dwarves, if they don't get thinned out like the elves, are basically waiting to get turned into a half flesh, half machine faction. The whole spirit influence doesn't suit them imho.
Necropolis needs less spiders, less vampires and maybe even some live units. There are literally too many units waiting for a turn in the lineup to need to justify their presence. Heck, lets get rid of ALL vampires for a change!
Point is, "Ashanification", as in races above factions, is boring since none of the races are going to get killed off.
As for the mythological units changing name, ability and function?
The races could use some variation from their standard usage but classic creatures should stay true to their classic interpretation. The problem is that Vampires and Medusa have become a race. Now they need variety but there is only so much you can change on a classic creature. That is (partly)why vampires struggle so much and Corall Piestess and Medusa don't fit together.
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"Now I am become Chris, the destroyer of worlds." - Robert Oppenheimer.
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Sligneris
Supreme Hero
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posted March 16, 2015 03:07 PM |
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Personally, I like Ashan's Medusa a lot - it's a nice play on the Nagas and I actually prefer it to your usual medusae.
Your ideas are weird and to be honest, not even appealing. Rise to power of the house of Griffin is interesting enough, while your ideas feature rather forced changes.
That being said, it could be interesting to see Black Guard mercenaries or Dark Messiah-esque Necromancers in Necropolis lineups.
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fuChris
Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
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posted March 16, 2015 03:25 PM |
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What is weird? Please specify.
Getting rid of the elves for some other race even for the period of one game can add a whole dimension to the factions.
Stronghold are already a mutated experimental bunch so no problems there. And there in no reason why they can't incorporate other mythological units.
Academy can basically go both ways if it wants to and the fact that there is a basically unexplored spirit realm from where they summon spirits means that the rules for that realm (and their inhabitants) are free to play with.
The fact that Ashan is filled with races instead of factions means that races themselves need change and not the factions which are aligned to the gods. Either that or mix up the gods somehow.
Not changing anything will leve us with the same dull, stale universe.
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"Now I am become Chris, the destroyer of worlds." - Robert Oppenheimer.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted March 16, 2015 03:43 PM |
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Edited by Maurice at 15:50, 16 Mar 2015.
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To me, the "Ashanification" actually means the rather rigid frame in which things have been molded. Rather than leaving issues open for multiple interpretations, they've all been solidified - and this is especially so when it comes to religion. There is one main belief - Asha - and the only difference is in its many facets. But the differences aren't strong enough to cause religious strife; heck, even what used to be one of the pinnacles of evil - Necromancy - is now a sort of goody-two-shoes faction because they believe in the part of Asha that deals with the concept of death. As such, the only real evil that remained has been Inferno.
The frames for factions have also been drawn in hard lines, rather than being fuzzy like they were pre-Ubisoft.
It's too rigid, too solid, too symmetrical and coherent. While it may be easier to grasp the lore of the game this way, it also effectively kills off a lot of flexibility and sources of possible strife. That, in turn, is probably also the reason they focussed so heavily on Haven, since it resembles humans and humanity - which have always been keen on slaughtering one another.
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted March 16, 2015 04:03 PM |
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I never understood why you think Ashan kills flexibility. To me, it's the other way around: I find this world interesting exactly because with some thinking, you could have literally everything in it and have an explanation.
Having 9 factions isn't so much of a hard line, because, let's be honest, there's a little chance of getting all 9. So, by "changing" factions every cycle, you will partially get rid of boring. And factions themselves have many subfactions, which should eliminate any boredom.
I believe it's probably the execution people are not satisfied with, and on that I partially agree. Too similar factions, little change within them etc. But hey, regarding Necro for example, you can't throw out Lich, Vampire, Skeleton and Wraith, that's 4 out of seven.
Heroes, I dare say, never was a game that allowed diversity within factions (just because of 7 creatures limit, really, + some creatures became iconic and you simply can't do without them), it allowed diversity in factions. That's something Heroes partially lost since H6 (imho), but has a potential to return it with H7 (in add-ons only).
Really, creature diversity should be reserved for something like in DoC. In Heroes, every slot is precious.
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Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted March 16, 2015 04:59 PM |
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Sandro400 said:
I believe it's probably the execution people are not satisfied with, and on that I partially agree. Too similar factions, little change within them etc. But hey, regarding Necro for example, you can't throw out Lich, Vampire, Skeleton and Wraith, that's 4 out of seven.
Heroes, I dare say, never was a game that allowed diversity within factions (just because of 7 creatures limit, really, + some creatures became iconic and you simply can't do without them), it allowed diversity in factions. That's something Heroes partially lost since H6 (imho), but has a potential to return it with H7 (in add-ons only). In Heroes, every slot is precious.
If I interpret you correctly, then I agree.
With only 7 slots to play with, there is only so much you can do to diversify a given faction. And with 3+ slots already taken with Iconic favorites and 1-2 oldies that have left and are returning, that leaves even less room to do something new with.
And that, fellow HC'ers, is the problem. Not that they tried to do something new with old units, the Vampire's role change are a decent example of this, but that they have to. If you cannot introduce new things, you have to do new things with old material. Because doing nothing new isn't an option. Because if you cannot do new things with factions, you might as well release a map-pack DLC instead of a new game.
But there is a solution to that which I have advocated for a while now. And that is allowing more creatures to be built within a town. But cap the ammount of buildings you can build. With the choice of 2 Champion creatures but the cap of only one Building, Ubi is taking babysteps in this direction.
As far as "Ashanification" goes, I concur with Zombi. It's more a switch from "Sword & Sorcery"Fantasy to "High" Fantasy than anything else. And that is probably more a marketing decision than a creative one. As far as I am concerned, that is a good thing. I'd rather have a marketable franchise that does things I disagree with, especially when those things are as irrelevant as lore and aesthetics, than a dead franchise. (as much as other people will disagree with that)
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted March 16, 2015 05:07 PM |
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Still, they're not doing anything with what they got.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted March 16, 2015 05:10 PM |
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kiryu133 said:
Still, they're not doing anything with what they got.
What do you mean?
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted March 16, 2015 05:24 PM |
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well, they got this universe made as easy to digest as possible and then just leave it there. i don't dislike Ashan as a universe, it has potential. but this potential is never used. they just took whatever seemed popular and added some classic heroes stuff to that. then they stopped doing anything. Ubisoft doesn't even respect their own universe it seems. It's just there for no reason other then help sell copies.
Dark elves is the best example since there was no reason to bring them in. no reason at all but Ubi thought dark elves were popular so now dungeon is inhabited by Dark Elves instead of minotaurs and medusae. And this doesn't seem to change anytime soon. nothing changes. nothing is explored other than some random in-universe locations. no factions has a decided theme outside some superficial dragon-related shenanigans. there is no depth, just Ashan as some land, not as a tool.
kinda suck at explaining though, so yeah...
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted March 16, 2015 05:31 PM |
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1: Helping this already Niche Franchise sell to Non-hardcore people is not just a "just" reason. It is a major consideration, it is possibly what keeps this franchise alive.
2: There is a reason why things aren't changed, or at the very least not changed drastically. Allow MatPat to explain for me: Here.
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