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oakwarrior
Famous Hero
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posted August 30, 2015 12:00 PM |
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LizardWarrior said:
Is creature class inherited from ACharacter or APawn?
Dun Dun Duuuuun
Neither 
It's always important to get as little trash as possible when making a proper inheritance chain. Character/Pawn already has way too much stuff (it's even worse in UE4), at least for a strategy game. For shooters it's fine though.
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted August 30, 2015 12:08 PM |
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Thanks for answering. I never worked with U3, started with U4, I don't even know if U3 supports C++11.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 30, 2015 12:31 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 12:31, 30 Aug 2015.
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oakwarrior said:
It doesn't mean their opinion is wrong. It's an opinion. And largely idealistic. Reality is different, that's all. And everybody perceives the situation differently. I would like to see someone who has worked through an entire game's lifecycle from start to finish in the same set-up as heroes (publisher + external dev), to try and bring counter-arguments. I can already tell you that there's just gonna be crickets chirping 
Let's no go there because that's not a ground for conversation. And as Verriker pointed out, Quantomas had his say on the topic of Ubisoft and AI some years ago. If he's not qualified then I don't know who is.
Meanwhile, the reality which you speak of leaves us with this "Best of Heroes" wanna be game, so if idealism is the subject of the day then right back at you. As I replied to Marzhin, you can blame budget and production up to a certain point, after which all there's left to blame is incompetence. When you set sail with ideas on core features that don't mash together into a unified whole, then you're in for a ride on stormy weather time. Specifically, who's to blame for 7 magic schools? Who's to blame for these lame specializations? Who's to blame for the VERY restrictive class system and the skill pizza? The budget and production issues? I'm not buying it.
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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kiryu133
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Highly illogical
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posted August 30, 2015 12:40 PM |
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Erwan
____________
It is with a heavy heart that I must announce that the cis are at it again.
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oakwarrior
Famous Hero
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posted August 30, 2015 12:43 PM |
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Stevie said:
oakwarrior said:
It doesn't mean their opinion is wrong. It's an opinion. And largely idealistic. Reality is different, that's all. And everybody perceives the situation differently. I would like to see someone who has worked through an entire game's lifecycle from start to finish in the same set-up as heroes (publisher + external dev), to try and bring counter-arguments. I can already tell you that there's just gonna be crickets chirping
Let's no go there because that's not a ground for conversation. And as Verriker pointed out, Quantomas had his say on the topic of Ubisoft and AI some years ago. If he's not qualified then I don't know who is.
Meanwhile, the reality which you speak of leaves us with this "Best of Heroes" wanna be game, so if idealism is the subject of the day then right back at you. As I replied to Marzhin, you can blame budget and production up to a certain point, after which all there's left to blame is incompetence. When you set sail with ideas on core features that don't mash together into a unified whole, then you're in for a ride on stormy weather time. Specifically, who's to blame for 7 magic schools? Who's to blame for these lame specializations? Who's to blame for the VERY restrictive class system and the skill pizza? The budget and production issues? I'm not buying it.
You do realise you just linked to a page which proves that Quantomas' arguments are just as invalid as mine, right?
You can an apply this pattern and it crumbles down the exact same way:
A says P about subject matter S.
A should be trusted about subject matter S.
Therefore, P is correct.
I guess this is a case of "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others" 
And to reply to the second part of your post, there's another saying that fits poignantly to game development: the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Everything does not always pan out as it could/should. And you are correct - idealism is there for every party, that's what passion is all about
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 30, 2015 12:59 PM |
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Valid only, if there are no warnings.
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oakwarrior
Famous Hero
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posted August 30, 2015 01:07 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
Valid only, if there are no warnings.
Well put
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 30, 2015 01:14 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 13:32, 30 Aug 2015.
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oakwarrior said:
You do realise you just linked to a page which proves that Quantomas' arguments are just as invalid as mine, right?
You can an apply this pattern and it crumbles down the exact same way:
A says P about subject matter S.
A should be trusted about subject matter S.
Therefore, P is correct.
I guess this is a case of "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others"
And to reply to the second part of your post, there's another saying that fits poignantly to game development: the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Everything does not always pan out as it could/should. And you are correct - idealism is there for every party, that's what passion is all about
The difference is that Quantomas never tried to raised the bar into a battle of credentials, nor did he support his arguments by claiming authority.
And that road to hell paved with good intentions had also giant red warning signs on the sideways with the signature of the community and the VIP group. Enough red flagging was done during production. I even remember Elvin and JJ trying to raise awareness by creating threads and commenting on a lot of subjects. There's no excuse.
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted August 30, 2015 01:21 PM |
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oakwarrior said:
I would like to see someone who has worked through an entire game's lifecycle from start to finish in the same set-up as heroes (publisher + external dev), to try and bring counter-arguments. I can already tell you that there's just gonna be crickets chirping
sorry but I just don't think this comfortably ambiguous "we're developers and you're not" argument you people (Black Hole, Ubisoft, now Limb) tend to rely on washes any more, development is more open in today's world than ever before (maybe that big open dev blog is one clue lol), you cannot just try to invalidate or terminate all criticism of these problems with a lame ad hominem lol
between AAA, Kickstarter and indies the consumer *is* entitled to more because the market is super competitive, there are no arguments and no excuses, like the Heroes 6 devs one can take the time to argue on a forum, but the conditions of development are honestly not much different than they've ever been, either the game will have a competitive AI or it will not and players won't care about the context lol
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keldaur
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 30, 2015 03:25 PM |
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I do not care about the blame game.
I care about results and expectations.
So i will repeat myself but clearer.
Should we expect AI to be like this at release ?
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Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
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posted August 30, 2015 03:31 PM |
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It seems that there is no limitation on Destiny and Leadership value, meaning tht if we have 75 Destiny, we have 75% chance of getting a critical strike. I would love to see a return of ToE idea that all values of Destiny and Leadership, which are greater or equal to 50, will grant 50% chance of critical strike or additional action. This would improve the game's balnce significantly.
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Wellplay
Famous Hero
Poland Stronk
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posted August 30, 2015 03:33 PM |
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keldaur said:
I do not care about the blame game.
I care about results and expectations.
So i will repeat myself but clearer.
Should we expect AI to be like this at release ?
No.
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keldaur
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 30, 2015 03:43 PM |
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Wellplay said:
keldaur said:
I do not care about the blame game.
I care about results and expectations.
So i will repeat myself but clearer.
Should we expect AI to be like this at release ?
No.
Care to elaborate more, AI turns will be WAY shorter? It will actually pick up resources and improve its economy? It will stop feeding you heroes while not "choosing" a main hero to really level up, so by the time you are lvl 15, you are not fighting lvl 5 heroes with a small army because it never got the resources to build/get more ?
Will you fix it just by giving more resources per day to the AI, or by actually improving the AI?
Etc etc etc.
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TD
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted August 30, 2015 04:59 PM |
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@keldaur
Based on the progress between the demo and current beta I think it's safe to say that AI will take longer and get decent amount dummer than it is currently . They did say it should get faster, but I haven't heard anything other than that.
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TD
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted August 30, 2015 05:31 PM |
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alcibiades said:
1) Battles: I actually like battles fairly well. Flanking doesn't seem to be a game-breaker anymore, it's been toned very much down. I think a major problem of battles is the fact that battlefields are very wide, which puts an unhealthy emphasis on ranged units. Ranged units were always (too) strong in the game series, but in this game, it seems worse than ever. In most battles, melee units would never get to cross the battlefield before they were being taken down by my Hunters or my Cabirs + Mages (I played as Sylvan and Academy). Melee units were almost universally reduced to being meatshields to protect my ranged units, although the Golems are surprisingly effective at dashing out massive damage early game.
4) Creature balance: Core creatures seem too strong compared to Elites, like in H6. Maybe this was because I only played the small map (the others were unplayable because of AI lag), but in all (eh, both) my games, I relied on cores almost the entire game. Champions seem pleasantly strong but come way too late to play any significant part. Again, this might be different on larger maps, and also has to do with my next point. Creature abilities are a bit confusing and some creatures lack essential abilities like the magic resistance of the golems.
5) Town build: Town build plans are quite confusing and WAY too restrictive. Sylvans champion dwellings requires Mage Guild level 4 plus high level fortifications and some other stuff if I recall which was just plain stupid. Overall I felt very tighed up hand and foot in my town developement. It didn't help that many buildings seemed rather useless but had to be build to get up town level or to unlock other buildings. I dislike the new growth-boost system where each building has its own growth-booster.
8) Other things:
- The mixed armies are really weird. I'll frequently find lumber mills or the like guarded by creatures from 2, 3 or even 4 different factions. Why? I think mixed armies are fine, but only on special items, and keep them within faction.
- Artifacts: The artifact sets were somewhat confusing. Some of them had five different robes which obviously you could not equip simultaneously, but then again, no bonus beyond 2-from-a-set was listed, so maybe that's just it?
- AI was horrible, but I only played on Normal difficulty, so maybe that was partially to blame (I hope ...).
- I hate the Town Portal system (Instant Recall). Also I couldn't teleport to a town above ground when my hero was below ground - bug or feature? Seems stupid.
1) I sort of agree. Frankly I thought we were going to get different size battle-maps but I just don't see/feel that happening. In all battle-maps melee units and fliers take two turns to cross the battle-field. It makes the melee units feel too similar since the extra movement in general doesn't feel like it gives any advantage over the less mobile units. Honestly I was expecting small battle-fields too where most or at least some units could cross to other side on turns one. Long live the shooters!
4) It's not just you who thinks cores are too strong. I didn't play small maps(medium and large ones I think) and that's where the cores really start to shine. I think for example stalker had damage of 2, BUT you could boost that with skill +150% dmg and for example dwarven crossbow + 200% damage + negate range penalty(so you ended up with over quadruple damage). Result was that I never needed anything else. Heck first 2 months I played without those skills, just using dark-magic and never needed anything else(I played my games on hard).
You can boost core-units way too much currently, making them easily the best units in the army. Frankly if you got a choice between numerous core and champion the core wins. Elites are also somewhat boostable making them somewhat in-between those two. With right boosts you might as well flip a coin if you wanna take elite or champion. Ohh and then there is strong elites which are the weakest units of the army, how cool is that? Basically the higher tier unit is the better it is early on(like first few weeks), but later game goes the stronger the "weaker" units get to the point they flip the whole system upside down. Based on the items/skills I've seen this is especially true for ranged core-units that can be boosted for growth. They will decimate anything later on. I don't see what was the point of increasing champion health and damage if you potentially boost core way more. It made even bigger mess of the system than it was in the demo...
5) I totally agree. Town-builder has idiotic requirements for buildings. Buildings that are placed on other side of town and seemingly have no relation of any kind to another building still have requirements to each other. Also because the prices are so low you don't need any "real" planning to build the town. Both are things that got complained about in the demo, but neither seemingly got any attention from devs.
8)
-I agree, mixed armies should be made of single faction.
-The artifacts you wrote are the artifact-families. They are the easy to build sets/pairs. I don't really care for them myself, it just feels like devs run out of creativity to make different effects so they were born...
-AI was terrible on hard too(both in and outside of battles).
-Teleporter just seems something extra to build IMO. Would've preferred it to be simply adventure map spell in MG at some level.
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LucPatenaude
Famous Hero
Owning all 7 Heroes games
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posted August 30, 2015 05:36 PM |
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Well...let's put it this way about the AI.
Many AI opponents on a game made map: Too fast and, will become silly and, quite oftenly forget about developing its own Village into a decently developed fortified City. Too slow and, will become tedious to any human player playing any of those game made maps + AI will become too confident at winning against the Human player and will attack the human player within the first month of said game.
Too little AI opponents on a game made map: Too fast and, will be increasingly arrogant and aggressive towards any other player, AI or Human player alike. Too slow and, will become worrisome to any human player as to know where to start the main assault toward any AI player of the game.
The trick is to find the "Just Right" amount of time the AI will decide to build its Town to be ready for both attacking and defending itself when the proper time is set for any the above mentioned situations. Equals, one serious challenge for the AI programming's dev.(assigned development programmer to the game's AI).
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 30, 2015 05:39 PM |
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flonembourg
Known Hero
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posted August 30, 2015 05:42 PM |
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Just a word about Heroes 7.
For me this is basically Heroes 6 Bis, with worst graphics and news ideas that are bad implemented.
This heroes 7 is just lackluster, everything feels so tiedous, graphics, towscreen, battle, adventure map (with no more coulours)...
AND THE SKILLWHEEL WTF!!???
This is basically Heroes 6 skill's feelling.
I try so hard to play the beta 2, i try so hard to love it but i failed badly.
The addiction is not here.... When i play a heroes game i'm like a drug addict i play 4 hours and i continue just one hour and an hour more and an hour more.......
This heroes VII is definitly not a "back to the root" is not a bad game but not a great game.
i'll continue or not? let's say Yes
I have the feeling that all the factions play the same way, all the 3 heroes per factions play the same, all my creeping experience is THE snowING SAME....
The UI is ugly and not intuitive at all...
My attempts were way to high for this game, i'm disappointed so much you have no idea guys...
The only thing that could save this game for now is MODDING, not a little modding but a BIG BIG modding...
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cleglaw
Famous Hero
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posted August 30, 2015 06:00 PM |
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Edited by cleglaw at 18:07, 30 Aug 2015.
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Stevie said:
Coordination + Perfect Strike = gg wp
- no retaliation
- double strike
- no damage resets Shroud
i have seen devestating spells that will beat this up
2000 damage circle of winter aoe damage gg wp.
flonembourg said:
Just a word about Heroes 7.
For me this is basically Heroes 6 Bis, with worst graphics and news ideas that are bad implemented.
This heroes 7 is just lackluster, everything feels so tiedous, graphics, towscreen, battle, adventure map (with no more coulours)...
AND THE SKILLWHEEL WTF!!???
This is basically Heroes 6 skill's feelling.
I try so hard to play the beta 2, i try so hard to love it but i failed badly.
your expectations look too much alike with those h5 lovers. personally im GLAD it doesnt look like h5, those shiny eye candy colorful colors ughhh  and i gottaa say, free pick skillwheel is GOOOOOD.
flonembourg said:
I have the feeling that all the factions play the same way,
no they are not.
flonembourg said:
all the 3 heroes per factions play the same, all my creeping experience is THE snowING SAME....
thats your low creativity.
flonembourg said:
The UI is ugly and not intuitive at all...
says who? to me it resembles of h3's which i love.. only problem, it misses a lot of usefull info, and it needs fix for texts.
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TD
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted August 30, 2015 06:18 PM |
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@Cleglaw
Why so weak circle of winter? It can easily do 3-4k damage without even having maxed the potential. Heck, even tsunami can do 2k damage...
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This thread is pages long: 
