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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted July 14, 2016 09:27 PM |
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Zenofex said:
markkur said:
Nonsense...not at all. If the New Covenant did not exist and I only had the O.T. today, there would be no Christianity with only prophetic scriptures pointing to Christ and I sure would not be a Jew in either sense of the word...by birth or Faith.
Don't know man, is it nonsense what I said or that an omniscient and omnipotent being who knows everything that was, is and will be suddenly changed its mind and said "OK, now do this, the old ways are obsolete". That would be a mental disorder of godly proportions.
I see nothing bizarre or outrageous about a vastly higher intelligence taking lesser minds to deeper Truth. As Parents we prove this (if we give a damn) every day on this planet. A Parent/Teacher is not going to discuss to a baby how to wipe its own bottom at the age of 3 months. A parent is not going to discuss the joy of sex with a 3 year-old and it would also not be wise to ask a 9 year-old to run for president, even after you've given him/her all information.
Like I've said already I am making a case about what happened with Christ's Church and believers and non-believers can believe what they want. I am chiefly writing to Christians because I think it necessary, however, I will not ignore thoughts from those outside the Church.
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted July 14, 2016 09:39 PM |
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markkur said:
I see nothing bizarre or outrageous about a vastly higher intelligence taking lesser minds to deeper Truth. As Parents we prove this (if we give a damn) every day on this planet. A Parent/Teacher is not going to discuss to a baby how to wipe its own bottom at the age of 3 months. A parent is not going to discuss the joy of sex with a 3 year-old and it would also not be wise to ask a 9 year-old to run for president, even after you've given him/her all information.
And how were humans less capable of understanding then as when Jesus was teaching?
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Zenofex
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Kreegan-atheist
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posted July 14, 2016 09:42 PM |
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Very poor analogy, its like teaching your child that it's OK to kill in some cases (like wiping out entire cities and armies because they are not very disciplined or chase the wrong guys), that men are not exactly equal, that slavery is OK, etc. then trying to convince it that every life is sacred, that all men are free and equal and so on. That would be the approach of a psychopath, not of a loving parent.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 14, 2016 09:56 PM |
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I know, I'll regret this, but, hey, enough is enough.
Look, guys, HISTORICALLY spoken, the problem is, that Jesus (and by proxy Christianity) is just a FRONT. It's all just been talk of love thy neighbour and forgiveness and hating only sin but not the sinner, but the DEEDS (and you shall know them by those, is what the Bible says) wasn't Jesus, but GOD, as in OLD covenant. Death penalty, kill gays, fight, sorry, save the souls of the poor non-Christians.
There is a difference between the US constitution in theory and in practise and that difference HAS BEEN GOD, because God, as opposed to Jesus isn't standing on the solid foundation of the human rights and the US constitution.
OF COURSE I hate this religion. It's the worst of all, because it's so bigotted. Jesus on the lips, God in hands. Since I am no Christian I'm allowed to admit to my feelings.
Which is a problem, because that has nothing to do with the question of faith as such. It's just - who would want to believe in this double-tongued crap, and that's exactly the weakness, isn't it? EVERYONE could actually stand behind this Jesus guy, no problem, but alas, this other guy is also there, like some unwanted relative hidden away in a cellar or attic - but, guys, he's the one doing all this creation stuff, being all-powerful and all, so you can't actually tell him he's got ALzheimer's now and should be satisfied being used now and then in some curse or so.
So a bit more Jesus instead of God couldn't have hurt. As it is, I think, Christianity just lost CREDIBILITY. Not just with the Native Americans. Generally.
But as I said, I'm not keen on "polluting" this thread. It's just that you should at least admit to the inherent problems of your religion.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 14, 2016 10:06 PM |
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Zenofex said:
Very poor analogy, its like teaching your child that it's OK to kill in some cases (like wiping out entire cities and armies because they are not very disciplined or chase the wrong guys), that men are not exactly equal, that slavery is OK, etc. then trying to convince it that every life is sacred, that all men are free and equal and so on. That would be the approach of a psychopath, not of a loving parent.
Not to mention, it would be like 50.000 + years of teaching animism and similar early beliefs, then, an upgrade to totems in some areas, then, pagan polytheism, gradually developing into first a monotheistic God that is still somehow tribal (God of the Jews) and then when he finally wants to go universal (again, somehow just around the time when empires rise and the concept of "ruler of all people" starts to spread around), he does that with "a son of God" which is oddly again a very common concept among pagan Roman beliefs of that particular region and then, even though the world is not getting any better (or even worse according to most Christians), this periodical "teaching process" somehow stops. And it wasn't even global to begin with, many of the cultures weren't even presented the monotheistic NT "pedagogy." Quite a plan...
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted July 14, 2016 10:14 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
OF COURSE I hate this religion. It's the worst of all, because it's so bigotted.
Actually this is a foolish and irresponsible statement. Show me a single country in the world which will penalize you for not being a Christian, quitting Christianism or blaspheming Christianism. There is none.
While I can point you about 30 countries (with about 2 billions of people in all) which will put you in jail -and this being the most clement of punishments if lucky, if you quit, deny or blaspheme Islam.
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Era II mods and utilities
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Homer171
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted July 14, 2016 10:19 PM |
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@Zenofex: It's not like God is controverce with himself, rather than man cannot live the standards of God in is own anyway. God comes half-way to narror that bridge and in Jesus that gap comes fully closed, man can finally live the life God want's to give us.
Here is a quote from bible Mark 10:
Quote:
Jesus then left that place and went into the region of Judea and across the Jordan. Again crowds of people came to him, and as was his custom, he taught them.
2 Some Pharisees came and tested him by asking, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?”
3 “What did Moses command you?” he replied.
4 They said, “Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce and send her away.”
5 “It was because your hearts were hard that Moses wrote you this law,” Jesus replied.
6 “But at the beginning of creation God ‘made them male and female.’
7 ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife,
8 and the two will become one flesh.’So they are no longer two, but one flesh.
9 Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”
10 When they were in the house again, the disciples asked Jesus about this.
11 He answered, “Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her.
12 And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery.”
Now in times of Moses it was different, Jesus explains. Man's heart was not simply ready for this example single husband and wife. Many profets, kings of Israel had multiple wifes and that was normal. God accepted the cruelty and hard heart of a man, because with laws only, man's heart could not become pure, because of sin. Bible says that the law was given for the time being. Jesus who filled the law, sacrifised himself that we would gain the purity and clean heart by beliaving in Him. Now Jesus points out to the beginning, when there was no sin. Man and a woman was created to themselfs. By Jesus we come back to that plan God had for us in beginwith. Sin problem has been taken care of, even tough temtation still exist like in the garden. Bible says in OT that God will make a new law's, a new covenent with a man, that he writes his laws to their hearts and pour His Spirit on them and they will know the God's will. Now, the followers of Christ have experienced that. It's not just words and commadments, it's life you could not imagine. My heart enjoys being with God.
Back to start. No, the bible is not controversial when you look at it in chronological order. Everything makes sense, tough it can be hard to grasp it at times. The mind of God has been the same, even tough the times have been different. Example: King David was an ideal man of God, humble, caring and God loving. He made songs to glorify God and everything seemed to go in his way because he always put God before himself. Then David said, that he would build a house for God to honor Him. God responded: It's good idea. But, you will not build a house for my honor, as you have stained you'r hands with blood of innocents. Instead, you'r son will build that house for my glory... Now, nowhere before bible had given moral judgements on the wars Israelities had to fight. Thou shall not kill, is one of the commandments but fights, wars where not considered a murder just normal life strugles. There would not had been any more suitable candinates to build that house for God's glory but still God said: "You will not build it." Because, God is always the same. God loved David dearly we can see it but there are principles like God's judgements, holyness and love. They are forever the same tough we change. If you read the whole bible you see, everything will lead to something and everything is connected. We are now "in the last chapter" little is to be known about the other side but what I understand it will be heavenly good, wish you all could make it there aswell.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted July 14, 2016 10:25 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 22:26, 14 Jul 2016.
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Homer171 said:
@Zenofex: It's not like God is controverce with himself, rather than man cannot live the standards of God in is own anyway. God comes half-way to narror that bridge and in Jesus that gap comes fully closed, man can finally live the life God want's to give us.
You don't say anything with that, God personally kills people in the thousands in the Old Testament. Does Jesus close the gap with his own self too?
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 14, 2016 11:49 PM |
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Salamandre said:
JollyJoker said:
OF COURSE I hate this religion. It's the worst of all, because it's so bigotted.
Actually this is a foolish and irresponsible statement. Show me a single country in the world which will penalize you for not being a Christian, quitting Christianism or blaspheming Christianism. There is none.
While I can point you about 30 countries (with about 2 billions of people in all) which will put you in jail -and this being the most clement of punishments if lucky, if you quit, deny or blaspheme Islam.
If you'll read my post a couple of times again, you'll maybe see that there is no connection between it and your post.
I mean, who cares?
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted July 15, 2016 12:02 AM |
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JollyJoker said:
Actually this is a foolish and irresponsible statement. Show me a single country in the world which will penalize you for not being a Christian, quitting Christianism or blaspheming Christianism. There is none.
Er, the entire Europe about 8 to 5 centuries ago?
Today, there are few cases, but aren't very drastic. Those cases are in the villages, where people would look down on you if you don't visit their local church often. Not that they'd attack you or something, they'll just be really disappointed. Just pointing this fact out.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted July 15, 2016 12:05 AM |
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Why should I even read further when you state that Christianism is the worst religion of all, and how much you hate it? At this point, is obvious that a pathology is present, especially when we remember how aggressively you jump when someone accuses Islam, and you lose any credibility.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted July 15, 2016 12:10 AM |
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EnergyZ said:
Er, the entire Europe about 8 to 5 centuries ago?
And you will remember me how men were misogynistic 5 centuries ago too, so we must wipe ourselves for eternity? There is one religion which evolved, changed with time, adapted to the world, abandoned its race to power and served people, took care of them, no matter if they were believers, poor or sinners, everyone is equal. This is what Christianity does today, in the major parts of the world. Live with your time and stop accusing the past.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 15, 2016 12:11 AM |
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Homer171
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted July 15, 2016 12:22 AM |
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God will judge and the penalty of sin is death. Jesus speaks about the coming judgement, it may not be the topic we want to usually discuss. I'm not scared, like I had to obey, beliave or else... but I have withnessed the freedom what comes after your burden is taken from you. I don't think I would earn my place in heaven. I haven't done THAT horrible things in my life but I know aim a sinner, done things aim not proud of. Deep inside I know that. God does not want us to feel misarable about it "oh aim so sinful.." the fact that you know you aren't perfect and need forgiveness is all really.
Picture perfect circle, now that's Life, that's Love, that's God. If you put tiny dot somewhere inside of that circle, you are the dot and now part of circle. Now if you put your dot somewhere else than in that circle. You aren't part of it. Still some complain that they don't wish to be part of that circle, they want to be somewhere else, left alone. Now if that circle is indeed a Life as we know it, what there are, outher of that circle? Nothing. Not life anyway. Now picture the dot complaining to the circle, why can't he be a circle himself. Circle would like that dot to join him eventually. Put the dot is too stubborn to realise that his just an ordinary dot.
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted July 15, 2016 12:32 AM |
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Who said about accusing? I just answered the question. Isn't an answer what you wanted?
A lot of times has Christianity and Islam being contradicted with the world. The most famous example is Darwin's evolution theory. It is certainly definitive that people ought to believe in something.
Religions like Buddism or Hinduism speak about a human's soul and its purity. I don't recall such an idea was tried to be proven wrong, but it is certain a lot of people do not respect such ideas.
So I say religion must be renewed if it has to have any reason for people to be a part of it. For culture and people certainly aren't the same as they were about 2000 years ago, when Christianity was just being formed: homosexual orientation, evolution theory, nuclear devastations or using science to engineer humans and animals.
Technological advancement causes the idea of a God to be pushed away, since people won't need religion in their lives. I wouldn't be surprised if an atheist says this to a Christian: "Nietzsche called; he wanted to let you know that God is dead."
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Salamandre
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Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted July 15, 2016 12:39 AM |
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EnergyZ said:
Isn't an answer what you wanted?
Yes, and you didn't give one but instead used the past fallacy, where anything and its contrary can be used. Is like someone accusing men of raping women lightly and unpunished then you ask him "where does that happen??" then the answer is "er, 2000 years ago".
And as I type this, on news there are reports of a terrorist attack tied to a certain religion just happening: at least 60 people killed and 100 injured in Nice...awful.
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frostysh
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
WHY?
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posted July 15, 2016 01:31 AM |
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This is some-kind of "strangers" internet forum, so I can type something about myself ..
Why I have a bad emotions about Christianity (both Orthodox and Catholic)? Because the boy that I know, was total Christian, he regularly meet Church (if that can be named Church..) and make all rituals there, I do not know how the exactly names of which...
And, of course he want me become a Christian too.. And this was not so bad actually, I have a very poor experience with this religion, but anyway I follow my friend and we were for some time in Church, praying (I am actually do not know how to pray, and I do not have a too much of positives about the Church.. but my friend was so exited that I just did not tell him what I feels in reality, and that is a VERY unusual for me, because I am very straight, better be said "a sharp" in what I saying and what I doing, usually.... )
Generally I prefer Catholic style of Church, because the Catholic Priests that I have saw was looks like a more,, I do not know, more without beards and strange clothing like Orthodox folks have.. The Catholics looks more modern, I do not know. But regardless all, my friend saw me in Orthodox stuff, anyway I do not care about Catholic/Orthodox for too much.
So my feelings was more and more close to religious things, and my emotions too. Anyway there many things happens.
But thanx to some factors, a very, a VERY refreshing factors for my feelings I starting to saw that SOMETHING IS GOING ON TO THE WRONG WAY! And when something wrong, something a very injustice happens the all my that I have inside of me, saying to me that I must make a darn STOP or I will be a cause of injustice and evil too! 
Anyway , the things went a very rapid and I have made my decision, to stay on my way of "all-goodness and justice" regardless of all religions, ideas, and the other things..
Suddenly my friend, the boy which I know, a different decision has been took...  .
So that is because I do not like this Christianity and , especially Islam... Because this things can make me blind, and I can turn away from ma' way... I do not like it, but perhaps I am wrong about Christianity.. I do not know.
So hell with it, back on topic.
Baronus - I have understand little of what you said (direct), but about Theory of Evolution (this "theory" has a many experimental confirmations, observation and so on, of course not all things is clear, but anyway this is not "just a theory") I am more agree with aru, obviously Scientists used their brains to understand this complicated subject, and if you have some things against , better if it will be a well confirmed things.., and is there anyone care who actually made a " Big Bang Theory "  , Hawking is a very cool (I saw him in National Geographic documentary stuff), why not a Hawking?
artu - Who they, and what incompatibilities they have in Cosmology? You may explain it like a for dumb, for me 
Elodin - I was typed a many question, but anyway.
Why the God has not typed the "right, the true one" Covenant for first time? Because I think Jewish folks believes that their Covenant is a true one too...
So Judaism and Christianity has been born in the actually same place ? - I mean in the Middle East? So why The God is not planted his (or the God is she, or It is something not she and he, I do not know, ) Texts or Massages in the whole human population, I mean there was Americas, Africa, Eurasia,, Australia too. Why Middle East only?
perhaps only God knows..
About miracles - The Moses make a Sea to divide and then Jewish folks can cross it, Jesus Christ made a dead mean Lasser arise again, He made blind peoples to see again, and so on .
As I have read now, all this miracles is described in the Holy Bible (And in the cartoons too ), but the the Holy Bible was written not by Jesus Himself, as there said, but by human writers, so is that miracles a true ? O_O ???
Or maybe, some human writers did not understand a Holy Spirit exactly..
As for me, now, it is looks like a, more likely.., you know, like a fairy-tales or some fantasy.... And I know that peoples of the past, especially of the times before the Renaissance Times believes in a MANY WEIRD things, because they tried to explain a Nature that is surrounding them. Lightnings, the Sun Rise and Sun Down, the Stars, the Sky, the fire, the water, the anythings that they can not understand ...
So perhaps this situation can made it's, I do not know a proper English word, it's spot, or it's influence, yes! influence on the Holy Bile human writers...???
Zenofex - you have a pretty scary to me avatar...
JollyJoker - "So a bit more Jesus instead of God couldn't have hurt. As it is, I think, Christianity just lost CREDIBILITY. Not just with the Native Americans. Generally." , I always thought that the Uncle Sam is a free country... And actually, US has been made by immigrants. The Native inhabitants of the both America was a Inca, Aztec, and stuff... O_O.
artu - "50.000 + years of teaching animism and similar early beliefs, then, an upgrade to totems in some areas, then, pagan polytheism, gradually developing into first a monotheistic God . . . which is oddly again a very common concept among pagan Roman beliefs of that particular region and then, even though the world is not getting any better (or even worse according to most Christians), this periodical "teaching process" somehow stops. And it wasn't even global to begin with, many of the cultures weren't even presented the monotheistic NT "pedagogy." Quite a plan... " -  ,
It is looks like "Civilization 3", the video-game, , anyway
Do you have a clues that the Christianity and Church made a world (I mean the p. Earth, and human civilization there) worst, so do you think they are evil and injustice ???
And why this, your "process" has been stopped O_O
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Homer171
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted July 15, 2016 03:39 AM |
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Sorry to hear your bad experiences about christianity frostysh
Membering back, I did not have great expectations about it either, I was rather annoyed by the idea of going to church actually. I want to advice you to not give up on these first experiences. As an protestant I would suggest you try one of those churches even tough aim not sure are any of those in your area. Pentecostal, Metodist and Babtist churches are few examples.
frostysh you asked: Why did not God write the true covenant in the first time? -Because God had loyal servant called Abram, God blessed the old man and said: You'r name is no longer Abram. It shall be Abraham. (Father of many or similiar) You will have childrens like stars in the sky and I will be their God (not word-by-word just how I remember it). These came to be the Isrelities of course. Later God made a covenant with them and choose Moses to lead them. Now the God's purpose always was to bring salvation from Jewish people. Old Testament profesies alot about this, coming of Messiah. Jesus where born 700 years after the last profesies and sadly as it where told before, Israelities did not beliave He was the promised One. Same it's for today only minority of the God's own "original people" confesses Jesus as their Lord and Savior. By Jesus God connected Jew's and gentiles to one. Letters to the hebrews in NT says that we who have accepted Christ are also those promises God made for Abraham. This was short version of it all. God still wants us to pray peace for Israel because we have a lot to thank them for, even tough many of them are loss.
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Baronus
Legendary Hero
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posted July 15, 2016 10:44 AM |
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Edited by Baronus at 10:46, 15 Jul 2016.
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Hawking has antiGod obssion. Why he still told ,,there is no God"? He know nothing about it. And told? If someone know nothing should told "I know nothing" not ,,there is no"... Its is not scientific approach. If Hawking used this ,,method" in his books there are no scientific books. I dont trust his works in this situation. But this topic is about christianity. I dont want told here about evolution.
God destroyed Sodoma with ,,gays" and pedophiles because they harmed people (kids too). It is not cruelity but mercy. Eliminating perversions, sadism, psychopats, islamists, nazists is MAKING THIS WORLD BETTER!!! The same Noah story, the same kannan degenerated peoples. GOD IS RULER LIFE AND DEATH! REMEMBER! Good not man. If Hitler eliminated peoples it was bad because he eliminated good people. Opposite to God. All Gods decisions are good. You dont understand it but was good.
You cant attacked God. "Why He allow for evil?" and if God destroy evil Sodoma you told ,,Why God is so cruel?". Absurd. Or either or...
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted July 15, 2016 01:37 PM |
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Gryphs said:
markkur said:
I see nothing bizarre or outrageous about a vastly higher intelligence taking lesser minds to deeper Truth. As Parents we prove this (if we give a damn) every day on this planet. A Parent/Teacher is not going to discuss to a baby how to wipe its own bottom at the age of 3 months. A parent is not going to discuss the joy of sex with a 3 year-old and it would also not be wise to ask a 9 year-old to run for president, even after you've given him/her all information.
And how were humans less capable of understanding then as when Jesus was teaching?
If you want to understand that, then read the arguments that occurred between Christ and the High Priests. Jesus taught many things much deeper than hard-hearted men following statements on stone-tablets. Also there were many Laws. i.e. It was a Jewish law to stone a Harlot...you should already know Christ's response but if not...look it up. Look-up topics like Marriage and the Sabbath while you are there.
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