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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted July 20, 2016 10:50 PM |
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Zenofex said:
But you do know, don't you? God. See, that's the easiest, laziest and the most self-centered explanation of all imaginable ones you can give to the question "how it all began
Where exactly have you heard me say that I know? I have never said that once. No one can answer that question.
As I have said; truthfully, I am not interested in taking my eyes off my necessary focus of life today, not how all this began nor how it all will end.
If Heaven exists I will get there, if it does not I will not. Case closed. I live my life through Christ...for this day.
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frostysh
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
WHY?
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posted July 20, 2016 11:27 PM |
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Edited by frostysh at 23:43, 20 Jul 2016.
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JollyJoker said:
Well, one thing is clear, cosmologically: If (IF!) there was a bang(-like event) to start our universe, it must have orginated in some "hyper"space (a space with more than 3 dimensions), because there is no point of origin in OUR space-time since everything is moving away from each other (if you are at any point in our space time you might think you were at the point of origin of the bang) like we were the surface of a balloon that is pumped up.
So that means, there is basically something "around" our universe that we currently have no access to, since we have no way to "register" or detect it.
Actually, I am little bit disagree, perhaps because I am too dumb ;/  , but:
1) You do not need a "hyper space" to make a Big-Bang. - Cosmic Inflation. Looks like a the Universe is blows up by itself  . It's barely need a "hyperspace" ..
2) I think the Theories that involved in Big-Bang, i.e. - General Relativity is using a some-kind of pseudo-4D space. 3 "space" like stuff and 1 something looks like a "time" .
I mean the three dimensions are similar to each other but the 4th dimension is little bit different from them... - Spacetime (Wikipedia)
Science4All - there you can download even more cool-like, green pictures .
3) The balloon model is cool, but this is actually little bit wrong.. coz' the Universe looks like , better to be said, it is do not looks like a surface of balloon.. . Surface of balloon is 2D , and it's may easily be imagined, and this is totally different from an Universe which is 3D, an cannot be imagined by human mind so easily... (for myself it is almost impossible  )
Balloon Analogy in Cosmology
4) the Modern Science Theories, such as String Theory which is have actually a many "real" dimensions. And I have no idea why is it so .
markkur "If Heaven exists I will get there"
"So young, so naive ".... I mean, how you can be so sure that you will get there... I am joking. Relax .
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Baronus
Legendary Hero
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posted July 21, 2016 12:01 AM |
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I told that christianity made MODERN science not science. Science is people thinking result. Eg. mages in ancient Iran practiced science. But only in East you have industrialisation and big progress. All other civilisations collapsed. In XIX century small european armies conquered all World. Only Japan not, because they copied West. Distance between West and rest of World in 1900 was gigantic. Facts. Colonisation was a crime but it was happend only thanks to techincal instruments. It is result of science and it is result of christianity. Western people rejected christianity but not rejected its results like science. Science without christianity is DANGER! It makes Hitlers and Stalins. Japan wasnt received christianity but received western technics. And result it was genecide in Asia. Asian, African people experienced western technic without christianity and it was horrible... It is world historical experience...
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted July 21, 2016 01:15 AM |
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Baronus said:
Science without christianity is DANGER! It makes Hitlers and Stalins.
Uh... no, I don't think so.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 21, 2016 03:50 AM |
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Edited by artu at 03:51, 21 Jul 2016.
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JollyJoker said:
Well, one thing is clear, cosmologically: If (IF!) there was a bang(-like event) to start our universe, it must have orginated in some "hyper"space (a space with more than 3 dimensions), because there is no point of origin in OUR space-time since everything is moving away from each other (if you are at any point in our space time you might think you were at the point of origin of the bang) like we were the surface of a balloon that is pumped up.
So that means, there is basically something "around" our universe that we currently have no access to, since we have no way to "register" or detect it.
Well, the multi-verse theory is quite popular these days but impossible to observe at the moment. If I remember correctly, another theory is that once the expansion caused by the explosion starts to cool down, gravity will cause the universe to shrink back. And once everything shrinks back to such an incredibly dense singularity, this will cause a new big bang. So, the universe is actually a circular repetition of big bangs and everything starting over from scratch.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Homer171
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted July 21, 2016 04:05 AM |
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1 Corinthians 2:4-16
4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power.
God’s Wisdom Revealed by the Spirit
6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 However, as it is written:
“What no eye has seen,
what no ear has heard,
and what no human mind has conceived”
the things God has prepared for those who love him—
10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for,
“Who has known the mind of the Lord
so as to instruct him?”
But we have the mind of Christ.
Fellas, we aren't arguing here about Big Bang, Evolution or Time of the Eart/Universe. Questioning these, just means you are looking for answers, we all are. Some of these things, I do take to an account but that's not my religion. You must heard of Quinque viae, if Neraus has not mentioned it before, I eat my hat. 1 the unmoved mover; 2 the first cause; 3 the argument from contingency; 4 the argument from degree; 5 the teleological argument (argument from design). Some classic logical views of christian thinking. What comes down to bible, it's goodness sake a spiritual and not a science book. Nothing mather with last but it has very little to do with the first. You may laugh and say, okay they are hiding again behind their faith and trust their imagenery but that's what it all is to you and it will not change until you have experienced and being part of it. Artu said earlier that it's only a consciousness of you'r mind. Leaving as a christian has broved me otherwise tough. Consciousness is part of the innerself you might call spiritual or it works on that level but it can go places you could not possible know. Few examples: Many times when someone has prayed with me, the other person has started to speak about the sceranios of my life, no way the other person had known these things, many time and totally "random" ones too. I have felt depression, in dark moment, I once felt the touch of God, everything just melted a way, my inside was changes completely in few seconds, now I studied the event quite bit afterwards, because I wanted to know was it psychological, I know what brains can do in stress but this was much more than simple effect of my own mind. I have few spiritual gifts, what God has given to help people, I speak with tongues of angels, I hear God's voice in my heart when Holy Spirit counsils me, teaches the bible and gives me intel about God's will. I have literally felt that I came from darkness to light, like my inside where full of black windows what mirrowed the darkness what clouded my heart. Like an hammer felt from the high, bashing through the black glass it destroyed the darkness what was in me. I felt, like I had never even born again in my life. So strong was the change of my innerself. I was very sceptical about any spirituality before I came to Christ follower. Maybe, would thing someone has dropped his marples when hearing what I just said. Truth is you never know before you find out for yourself.
Okay, this was quite out there again, but what ever, what you may think of these things is your opinion but what I have experienced, what I know, what I am today, aim very clad that God took me 'under His wings'.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted July 21, 2016 07:18 AM |
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Quote:
Where exactly have you heard me say that I know? I have never said that once. No one can answer that question.
You realize that you contradict yourself? The Bible gives a pretty straight-forward explanation how the world was created - you either believe in it or not. The subtleties differentiating between believing and knowing don't matter in this case because you accept that book to be the source of truth (or if you have doubts, I don't know why are you arguing in the first place), i.e. nothing written, or said, or encoded, or whatever anywhere else can be any more true.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 21, 2016 09:09 AM |
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FRostysh, there are a couple of problems with all these, except for trhe balloon analogy, which you yourself linked to. The specific reason why we discuss this at all in this thread is the question, "where does it all come from/originate?", and if you take the big bang theory then that question isn't answered, because taken at face value, everything must have been there "somehow", but not there either, a 0-dimensional ultra-dense point of a black hole that everything contained and then somehow "exploded" to create the spacetime.
This is of course a bullcrap idea - and it can't be right, because if it had been so, there would be a center of the universe, even if the inflation theory had something going for it, but it doesn't.
Instead, it makes a lot more sense to use the balloon image, just with one more dimension, because that explains what we observe: a) no matter where you are in the universe, everything moves away from there (like on the surface of a balloon that's blown up, just with one more dimension); b) we observe that the farther a galaxy is away from us the faster it moves (away); that is also in keeping with the balloon model: if you assume that galaxies aren't moving in space for a moment, but instead consider them as coins on the balloon. Imagine five coins in a row, each 100.000.000 light years farer away. Now blow up the balloon, until everything is now 200.000.000 light years away from each other. Consider yourself being in the first. After a given time, the first has moved 100.000.000 light years, the second, though, which is not twice 200.000.000 light years away instead of twice 100.000.000 has "moved" double the distance - so it moved double as fast, and so on.
Which means, there has been no EXPLOSION-like bang. Instead, space is behaving like an expanding gas or a membrane that is stretched, with mass being something that "keeps the gas or membrane of space tight".
The relevance for this thread is that there is obviously something that is (still) beyond our capability to directly observe (which is no wonder, given that we are 3d. Which would leave room for a lot of possibilities.
4d isn't that difficult, by the way. 
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Homer171
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted July 21, 2016 12:45 PM |
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I have christian friends that fully support big bang idea, one of them being priest. Evolution in another hand has controversials with the bible and to my knowlage there are some loose ends with it. Don't go for details now, it's boring. About the explosion it wonders me why some planets spin in different direction than the ones in very close by, spinning motion would be the same if the direction is the same after the explosion but now they say planets formed and connected from smaller rocks in the space. This in another hand has nothing to do with creation, where there a Creator in begin with. Something has always existed, has it been God who put the motion on the run is debatable but is it really that hard to think everything in the existence comes from the same source. No, apparently. The nothing created itself from nothing and that nothing is deffinetly not God, because God does not exist, yes very logical indeed.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted July 21, 2016 02:20 PM |
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Zenofex said:
Quote:
Where exactly have you heard me say that I know? I have never said that once. No one can answer that question.
You realize that you contradict yourself? The Bible gives a pretty straight-forward explanation how the world was created - you either believe in it or not. The subtleties differentiating between believing and knowing don't matter in this case because you accept that book to be the source of truth (or if you have doubts, I don't know why are you arguing in the first place), i.e. nothing written, or said, or encoded, or whatever anywhere else can be any more true.
I just love how non-believers are experts on what a believer must believe.
I am a Christian under the New Covenant not a Jew under the Old.
I'll give an example of what the O.T. means to me today. For probably the first half of my Christian walk I studied the N.T. and just listened to Pastors etc. giving sermons based on the O.T., my interest never has been on Jewish Law & Tradition more than as a backdrop for the emergence of Christ.
However, I did go back and read Psalms and Proverbs and enjoyed both but no matter what I find in the O.T. Christ is Lord. Not Moses etc.
As far as Creation...I know what is written and do not get that. Do I NEED too? No. Why? Exactly. I do not, no matter how that happened. You see there is no proof in the Story of Adam and Eve, and there is no proof today from anyone how life began. You see the world & universe as a chance thing I think that is absurd because we have and are discovering that the life on this planet is an incredibly complex thing. But again, I care about my Spirit and how I treat others more than I do anything else. I don't knock others that feel the need to debate life, it's just that ever since my salvation my heart has been on Christ's ministry and living that in my home and near community. Personally I believe that is the Christian calling.
<imo>The world is going to earthly-hell in a hand-basket today and what we need is people right here, right now that want to get off themselves, get their heads out of the clouds and love, forgive and help those around them...friends, family and strangers...NOW. Before it is too late.
"How can you ask the Father that you cannot see for forgiveness, when you cannot forgive those around you whom you can see".
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted July 21, 2016 02:51 PM |
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Homer171 said:
I have christian friends that fully support big bang idea, one of them being priest.
They are not alone.
Francis Collins
DNA
Critics hear me clearly, these are my thoughts...the Faith of one man. It is not an indictment on the rest of Mankind, no matter the positions.
My problem with Science be it done by Christians, or otherwise is that Science is not my Faith. Had I have waited for Science, no matter who is doing it, to prove the big questions and done nothing within my Faith? Then for the last 35 years I would not have been at work on myself and learning to know, love and understand those around me in both my near community and also the greater community.
However, I DO understand ALL people are different and have different gifts and passions and I think that is both needed and intended.
My own calling has been to the Streets where people are and not to buildings no matter the purpose. i.e Sending Trillions of dollars into Space and to High Tech companies while we have millions and millions of people on THIS planet starving, dying of controllable disease or thirsting for a clean drink of water is not only misguided but heartless and blind.
Rather, I felt lead to care about communities and to sing songs or write poetry etc. so my calling was never one of position, organization or power. i.e. Being a Pastor sounds like a scary proposition to me. Being responsible for others (in that way) is no small matter as evidenced by many arrogant & self-centered men and women that went there and wrecked havoc on their own souls and many others.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 21, 2016 03:11 PM |
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Edited by artu at 16:59, 21 Jul 2016.
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Homer said:
The nothing created itself from nothing and that nothing is deffinetly not God, because God does not exist, yes very logical indeed.
As I already stated, a "god" with a personality coming out of nothing is much more absurd and saying "God doesn't have to, he's God, he's special, etc" is not an actual argument. IF everything has to have a start, logically, that also includes theistic entities, if not...
And rest of what I'll say now is also about some of JJ's comments. The thing is, quantum physics is quite weird, things like something acting both as a particle (like an atom) and a frequency (like sound) at the same time seem like they contradict with our common sense and semantics, which obviously isn't developed to understand the sub-atomic dimension. For example, I remember Lawrence Krauss saying there are two kinds of nothing, now this is not something that makes sense by every day logic and you may refute it "Ancient Greece forum style" by saying if something has two kinds, they must have different qualities and hence, they can't be nothing because nothing cant have qualities etc.. But quantum physics isn't something that our language as a system and its semantics is sufficient enough to correspond to all the time, it's like a different language that operates within a branch of advanced math. So, things become additionally complicated for us lay men.
Homer said:
Evolution in another hand has controversials with the bible and to my knowlage there are some loose ends with it.
Man, I hate how both Christians and Muslims are like 5 year olds when it comes to this. There are no "loose ends" and evolution is a fact that is accepted by any scientist (or any person without religious bias). It is backed up by COUNTLESS amount of evidence from various fields including genetics, molecular biology, paleontology, geology, biogeography, comparative anatomy, phylogenetics and many more... Keep in mind that the evidence from all these different branches are also in sync, they match like a glove. This is not the String Theory with just probable equations on paper, we are talking about an overwhelming amount of hardcore evidence and observation. If anybody is telling you there are loose ends with evolution, there are 3 possibilities:
1- They are deliberately lying for an agenda.
2- They are ignorant about the subject on a "medieval paesant" level.
3- They are confused because of the pseudo-scientific crap on the internet spread out by creationist lobbies, which imitates the scientific lingo but in fact has zero scientific credibility in reality:
Nearly every scientific society, representing hundreds of thousands of scientists, has issued statements rejecting intelligent design and a petition supporting the teaching of evolutionary biology was endorsed by 72 Nobel Prize winners in US alone.
The existence of evolution, in today's world, is not a debate. And to pretend it is, is not much different than arguing about if the heart is actually an organ that pumps blood or if the world is really not flat etc.
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frostysh
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
WHY?
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posted July 21, 2016 06:45 PM |
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Edited by frostysh at 18:46, 21 Jul 2016.
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Baronus -
1) The Christianity before Humanism, was, hmm, little bit non-humanistic. A perfect Historical example is a Crusade with historical evidence of religious oriented genocide, and even mass-cannibalism..
2) "Hitler", be more well aiming - the Nazi itself, using the Christianity in their own propaganda stuff goals, you can easily read about such evidence in Wikipedia, and there many sources.
3) The Communistic Party of SU, CPR, etc... Using the Christianity, Confucianism, etc in their own goals too... of course after "the great purges"...
4) Yeah the "West" made a great jump in the past. I think the formula of this great jump will be next:
The Egypt, Persian, and Greece Science-oriented texts translated by Arabs (and of course the Arab-Science things like Algabra, Mukabala bla-bla-bla..). And the China technology. All this stuff came from Spain, Crusade, and Mongols to the Europe.
The Roman Laws - this is a pretty different from a Sharia of Arabs, i.e., Because there a "Civil Laws" and the "Law of God" were separated more strongly.
The Christianity Itself played a role - Almost the all modern Europe Universities made on the place of Monasteries (I have no proper word in English..), there was Libraries and stuff. And obviously usually only priests can read and write in that time lol.. I am joking.
The Black Death and Great Starvation - makes a , somekind of "refresh" to the European folks minds, because the "Lay on Hands" skill was almost absolutely useless against the Bubonic Plague , I am sorry, and the clean hands was not... I the European folks was a smart, and they realize it's a very fast (after 60% of European town-folks died..).
European cattle, and husbandry - played a great role there. Europeans folks have a lot of food,almost always , and that because their "Man of Science" have a time to do the stuff ;P
Perhaps there was some more factors. In the sum, all this stuff caused a "Great jump by West folks" . IMHO.
artu - I like a multiUniverse theory too.
Homer171 - "Praying, Angels, another person, bla-bla-bla and stuff..." this is looks a pretty boring,
but I am always tried to have a respect to folks that believed in something not bad. But I will never trust the human "only because he is a Christian", (and especially Muslim..).
For myself I believe in the choice, I always making a choice, perhaps sometime a very hard choice, perhaps sometime I must to "shut-off" my emotions (in my case this is almost impossible ), but still there from my frigging childhood I have no step away from my darn way of justice and allgoodness (that's because I am in such ... now, but still, the things may be a much more worst.. or I am just a crazy . I am joking.)
And I hell do not like the religious folks, because I saw from my darn eyes how the stupid religion and the idiotic political ideas can make from good humans, from a idk a proper word in English, from a sensible human, the darn enemy of justice, the evil human that is hurting the innocent peoples, etc...
So I have do not understand your blind "believe".
JollyJoker
JollyJoker said:
FRostysh, there are a couple of problems with all these, except for trhe balloon analogy, which you yourself linked to. The specific reason why we discuss this at all in this thread is the question, "where does it all come from/originate?", and if you take the big bang theory then that question isn't answered, because taken at face value, everything must have been there "somehow", but not there either, a 0-dimensional ultra-dense point of a black hole that everything contained and then somehow "exploded" to create the spacetime.
Of course the "singularity" cannot be explained in the Modern Science, perhaps in future will be a light on this question.
By why our Universe cannot be in the singularity many years ago? - This is a very good idea, at least I think so.
And this idea has some sense in the General Relativity, so , WHY NOT?
Do you have a more good idea how to explain this stuff? O_o
And why "created" the spacetime, space time can be "bented" into singularity and then it can free of the singularity through an Inflation.
JollyJoker said:
This is of course a bullcrap idea - and it can't be right, because if it had been so, there would be a center of the universe, even if the inflation theory had something going for it, but it doesn't.
The bad idea about what? The balloon model? - Nah, this is a cool model. At for myself.
JollyJoker said:
This is of course a bullcrap idea - and it can't be right, because if it had been so, there would be a center of the universe, even if the inflation theory had something going for it, but it doesn't.
Instead, it makes a lot more sense to use the balloon image, just with one more dimension, because that explains what we observe: a) no matter where you are in the universe, everything moves away from there (like on the surface of a balloon that's blown up, just with one more dimension); b) we observe that the farther a galaxy is away from us the faster it moves (away); that is also in keeping with the balloon model: if you assume that galaxies aren't moving in space for a moment, but instead consider them as coins on the balloon. Imagine five coins in a row, each 100.000.000 light years farer away. Now blow up the balloon, until everything is now 200.000.000 light years away from each other. Consider yourself being in the first. After a given time, the first has moved 100.000.000 light years, the second, though, which is not twice 200.000.000 light years away instead of twice 100.000.000 has "moved" double the distance - so it moved double as fast, and so on.
B) So if you are on the First and looking to the others - the distance define a speed, of which the things flying away from you. But you actually are stand still, only the balloonUniverse is flying away from you.
But if you switching up "the God eye", and you looking to the balloon from a side, the all coins have a same speed?
This is what do you want to say?
JollyJoker said:
Which means, there has been no EXPLOSION-like bang. Instead, space is behaving like an expanding gas or a membrane that is stretched, with mass being something that "keeps the gas or membrane of space tight".
So why not explosion? O_o. There was a singularity-like stuff, and then "bOOM!" the Inflation, the cool firework show, and then viola. - some humans looking at the dark and dangerous space from the Earth.
As for me it is looks like an explosion.
Why not to call this stuff - The Big Bang? Because there was something great (big,) and there was something bang-like.
The more idiotic, and myself hated name is a "Black Hole" - this pathetic name for such incredible object in the space... 
JollyJoker said:
The relevance for this thread is that there is obviously something that is (still) beyond our capability to directly observe (which is no wonder, given that we are 3d. Which would leave room for a lot of possibilities.
4d isn't that difficult, by the way
Of course this hard to observe, perhpas the humans need some advanced technologies that will help.
And my poor and lazy mind, cannot imagine 4D box, my mind will burn from the inside in the process .
Homer171 said:
I have christian friends that fully support big bang idea, one of them being priest. Evolution in another hand has controversials with the bible and to my knowlage there are some loose ends with it. Don't go for details now, it's boring. About the explosion it wonders me why some planets spin in different direction than the ones in very close by, spinning motion would be the same if the direction is the same after the explosion but now they say planets formed and connected from smaller rocks in the space. This in another hand has nothing to do with creation, where there a Creator in begin with. Something has always existed, has it been God who put the motion on the run is debatable but is it really that hard to think everything in the existence comes from the same source. No, apparently. The nothing created itself from nothing and that nothing is deffinetly not God, because God does not exist, yes very logical indeed.
1) The Nature and the Logic - it is a barely connected things. I.e. the Special Relativity
2) The "planetary Genesis" (at least for human-beings star-system) and the "Big Bang" is hell separated in the "time" things, ~ 10 billions of Earth-years difference. In this time period, a many things may happened that cause one piece of dirty swamp spinning in the one direction, and it's neighbor in the opposite, i.e. the clash of a space junk may caused this .
3) The "nothing" in Science can have the some abilities too i.e. Vacuum, in general "nothing" it is means "nothing" before the Scientists will not detect another particles or such around flying junk.
markkur - "My own calling has been to the Streets where people are and not to buildings no matter the purpose. i.e Sending Trillions of dollars into Space and to High Tech companies while we have millions and millions of people on THIS planet starving, dying of controllable disease or thirsting for a clean drink of water is not only misguided but heartless and blind." - Wow, this make a sense for me too. But I have doubts that the Global Problem so easy to resolve..
artu +1 for a an Evolution Theory, IMHO this Theory is much more easy to be confirmed then a General Relativity.
Obviously when the objects and the subjects of the theory have a similar place, and you can make a direct access there, this make a confirmation is far more easier. I.e. DNA of the African Apes and DNA of a Modern Humans.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted July 21, 2016 07:49 PM |
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@markkur, I didn't exactly ask you if you believe in the Christian Creation Myth. Do you believe that God created the Universe, no matter how exactly he did it or in what order?
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Homer171
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted July 21, 2016 09:28 PM |
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It's good to hear you have strong morale frostysh. If everyone would live incording their good judgement, this sure would be better world. Speaking of judgement, those crusaders and more you mentioned made "in the name of christianity" are all horrible, wrong and need to be judged as that. Christianity what is displayed in new testament could not be further from it, still evil and sick man's have used it as an horse to their own ends.
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frostysh
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
WHY?
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posted July 21, 2016 10:18 PM |
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Homer171 said:
It's good to hear you have strong morale frostysh. If everyone would live incording their good judgement, this sure would be better world. Speaking of judgement, those crusaders and more you mentioned made "in the name of christianity" are all horrible, wrong and need to be judged as that. Christianity what is displayed in new testament could not be further from it, still evil and sick man's have used it as an horse to their own ends.
Whahwhah. This "morale" is a such thing in ma' life that without it I would rather to blows up my brains with a bullet instead  . I am joking. . .
Anyway, I realized that I do not need either any religion or a more important a brainwashing political ideology just to be "on ma' way".
Perhaps I saw (I mean I have an experience with) to little of them in the real life, there was: 1) Christianity, 2) Islam, 3) Nationalism, 4) Communism .
Perhaps the Jewish stuff is more cool, or Buddhism, I have a hell no idea about Buddhism, I saw the pictures (when my internet was not so bad as it is now..), where the Buddhist monk making a self-burning.
This is left a huge , idk a proper word in English, a strong memories from my childhood.
Thích Quảng Đức
This was someking of a protest against a "Vietnam Madness", and perhpas there was a propaganda, but anyway I do not know how to make a an explanation of his , of this monk self burning .
In the one side - this was a pretty self-destruct action, and maybe a pretty stupid.. Or he was just a to bothered by a madness of Vietnam Var, and suffering a Vietnamese folks..
In the other side - this is looks like an almost perfect propaganda against the "free-mass-media" countries, obviously such act is useless if you want to make the communistic countries stop a war, because they do not care about "free-mass-media" ...
Perhaps the Buddhism is a crazy too, and it can be easily used in propaganda stuff..
I do not know why I have posted this stuff , perhaps I must to sleep more.... 
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 21, 2016 11:16 PM |
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Edited by artu at 23:25, 21 Jul 2016.
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Markkur said:
Francis Collins
DNA
The name rang a bell but I wasn't sure from where. When I checked up on him and saw the Genom Project, the rest was easy, I remember him from the Christopher Hitchens book Mortality,the one he wrote on his death bed:
I have saved the best of the faithful until the last. Dr. Francis Collins is one of the greatest living Americans. He is the man who brought the Human Genome Project to completion, ahead of time and under budget, and who now directs the National Institutes of Health. In his work on the genetic origins of disorder, he helped decode the “misprints” that cause such calamities as cystic fibrosis and Huntington’s disease. He is working now on the amazing healing properties that are latent in stem cells and in “targeted” gene–based treatments. This great humanitarian is also a devotee of the work of C. S. Lewis and in his book The Language of God has set out the case for making science compatible with faith. (This small volume contains an admirably terse chapter informing fundamentalists that the argument about evolution is over, mainly because there is no argument.) I know Francis, too, from various public and private debates over religion. He has been kind enough to visit me in his own time and to discuss all sorts of novel treatments, only recently even imaginable, that might apply to my case. And let me put it this way: He hasn’t suggested prayer, and I in turn haven’t teased him about The Screwtape Letters. So those who want me to die in agony are really praying that the efforts of our most selfless Christian physician be thwarted. Who is Dr. Collins to interfere with the divine design? By a similar twist, those who want me to burn in hell are also mocking those kind religious folk who do not find me unsalvageably evil. I leave these paradoxes to those, friends and enemies, who still venerate the supernatural.
So, a Christian rejecting Intelligent Design (he explains why he does that in Markkur's video, starting from 52:40) got me curious, and I watched the link above. A smart man indeed, he starts with defending a deistic God at first, he is also aware of that and at some point even mentions it, the jump to theism (with the guidance of C.S. Lewis) comes with what he refers as the Moral Law. And after that, anything that justifies theism over deism (according to him) is mostly based on this:
According to Collins, if altruistic behavior is involving our friends or close group members we share a common interest with, it can be explained by evolutionary dynamics, however, when the distinction between right or wrong and self sacrifice becomes more universal, we must conclude that a God blessed us with the ability and motive to have that.
The problem with this argument is that it ignores once a notion of altruistic sacrifice is triggered by evolutionary dynamics, a high mammal capable of abstract cognition can carry it to levels where it is no longer actually "serving the genes." In fact, you can even feel empathy for an animation character which you happen to know for sure, does not exist in reality. I actually remember sharing a very related video about this here, years ago: Robert Saposky - The Uniqueness of Humans
Come to think of it, you don't even need a very sophisticated level of abstract cognition. Think of dogs, dogs are social mammals that are capable of affection and loyalty, a dog can behave incredibly altruistic, even sacrifice his life for his owner. Now, doing that for a human certainly has no evolutionary genetic advantage for the dog, but his genetic behavior still functions the same under new circumstances. And since they are not capable of making deliberate moral choices, it is impossible to attach it to any "moral law."
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted July 22, 2016 12:56 AM |
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Zenofex said:
@markkur, I didn't exactly ask you if you believe in the Christian Creation Myth. Do you believe that God created the Universe, no matter how exactly he did it or in what order?
I accept that what little we can see and know about the Universe could have been created by a higher order of life. But again, Faith is belief in what is not known, Knowing is not Faith.
Some Christians think that the very start of the Universe, as man is trying to understand it today, is a good sign of God taking that action of creation but, for me, I do not need that for my Faith in my daily life. Frankly I think too many people today are not "free to live" for one reason or another and I am no fan of chaining others, physically or mentally.
As I said and will say again, <imvho> Christianity should take me to the streets where there are needs and not to sitting on my duff in cozy retreats nor Theological Fortresses discussing the Word meant to be lived and in the end dodging it's true gift to humanity.
You know exactly what I mean Zeno and most others here will too; "Walk the walk, not talk the walk"
It has also been said another way; "Be ye doers of the Word and not hearers only"
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Homer171
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted July 22, 2016 01:08 PM |
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Can't say aim big fan of liberalism myself but I want to keep my mouth shut, when it comes down how they should think, beliave how God created everything. I like the fact, people can have their own mind even if it's different than mines. I have heard some "hate talk" from conservative christians towards free minded thinking and I don't want to be any part of it. Liberalism what shakes the very foundations of fate, church and grace are destructive to itself. These days in europe "you can't" say anything about Sin and most deffinetly not Hell. It's not considered very civilized these days. If you read new testament it does not shame to put names on the wrong-doings, it displays great image what christian life should be like. Markkur seem to grasp the essence of the it. Let Christ fill your heart with love to help those around you. We may not save the world but maybe we can make a difference for some.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted July 22, 2016 04:46 PM |
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Edited by markkur at 21:06, 22 Jul 2016.
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Homer171 said:
...Let Christ fill your heart with love to help those around you. We may not save the world but maybe we can make a difference for some.
Absolutely my friend.
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This thread is pages long: 
