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frostysh
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
WHY?
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posted July 22, 2016 06:37 PM |
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Francis Collins talking - looks like a total philosophical nonsense and the road to nowhere.
I cannot see the video for myself, but in the time when Christianity has been born, in this time were almost ZERO knowledge about Neurology and the Human Brain Evolution - so the any philosophical arguments from the Christian Theologian against the Human Mind Evolution/Human Brain Evolution explanations by Neurology/Psychology will be ridiculous 
Anyway, I like some Christian things like a "Charity, All-Goodness, Justice" etc..
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted July 22, 2016 09:06 PM |
bonus applied by Corribus on 26 Jul 2016. |
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Since my writing an article seems to be becoming a tome, I will say something very general here at HC about Christ of the Gospels versus the history of the modern Christian Churches.
But first: “Enter by the narrow gate, for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction and many are those that enter by it.”
{Jesus from Matthew 7:13}
All of my life I have heard that Rome was the reason for the spread of Christianity and to that I will say; The roads were nice but what sort of Christianity was spread?
Very briefly: A Timeline
1. Jesus hit's the streets and begins his ministry and who is soon hot on his heels? The folks on the streets? No. The rich & powerful? Yes.
2. Christ is betrayed by whom? Judas Why? Because Judas wanted an earthly-King. He wanted a powerful Monarch welding a potent military force to take revenge on Rome and free the Jews. In short, the betrayer Judas felt betrayed and made some coin in the bargain.
3. Christ is tried, convicted and killed by Religious men of the day; Rome did carry out the requested execution but that was Roman law. Christ did not play patty-cake with the Sanhedrin and he paid the price.
4. Christ's resurrection sent his small band of followers on with the serious business of their personal ministries and the spread of the good news. James led the Church in Jerusalem, Paul took the Gospel to the Gentiles and Peter worked between them for the most part and of course the others went to work too.
5. The Church grows and eventually becomes a threat to Rome. Why? because the Christians will not serve the man Caesar as God. Various Caesars persecute the Christians and to varying degrees; anything from killing some that must be killed that appeared in courts, to seeking extermination across the whole empire.
6. Constantine comes along and defeats (in the end) 3 other contestants for control of the Empire. He then one day "Makes Christianity the Empires Religion" he wants absolute unity and by force if necessary. He seems a marginal Christian...at best, but his mother or mother in law is into the stuff. Btw, this pious King has no problem killing family.
7. Very important now. Constantine set a precedent with his "State-Religion" and this high-jacked Christianity. With little effort, this can be understood. Again, why did Judas betray Christ? Answer; because Christ was a Spiritual King and not an Earthly one. For Jesus, the only conflict about Rome was the face on the coin brought to him by his enemies. Those lovely men wanted Jesus to defy Caesar and then they could “run to Pilate” and have him killed as a threat to Rome, just like they later did. But how did Jesus respond; "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's".
Now what did that lead too? The Christians lived peaceably under Roman rule but finally when demanded to name Caesar as their God, most could not and would not and were killed. Despite this, Christ's early One church grew despite all the slaughter.
8. Important Now we have the 1st Throne to become heavily identified with our Faith.
9. Constantine does what next? He goes into Turkey (not Italy) and builds a city named after who? Himself and it is named Constantinople. What a pious and humble fellow. Our Lord never lived in anything remotely resembling a Palace and sure never declared a city should be named after him.
10. What Christian Churches comes into existence next? The Roman Catholic (Rome) and the Eastern Orthodox. (Byzantine Empire) Keeping this brief, both were “Empire-Churches“. And both were personally used and controlled under different guises and to kingly or imperial purpose.
11. Ok, focusing on the Pope in the west, what then happens? That Church grows in worldly riches and power and through the centuries there can be no opposition. The Word is completely controlled by the Church because why? "The average person will not be able to understand it."Which just happened to lead to unbelievable excesses, abuses and total power over the masses. The bottom line is that the One Church of Christ was shoved aside for Politics, profit and power, with maybe a wee bit a piety thrown in for good measure.
12. Thankfully, there were men and women that did see something horribly wrong and did something about it in their own way. Francis of Assisi was one, there were many others. However, these folk had to get permission to do their work (even if living as beggars without power) and of course could not challenge the power of Rome. Better to silently help lepers than be made human toast.
13. The Crusades. Who called the Crusades? The Pope Urban II (of noble French birth) and who answered the call to lead the Crusades from men and women i.e. Bernard of Clairvaux? Kings & Nobles of all kinds. Muslims were overrunning Christian lands in the east and the west fought back. At that time Military Orders, like the Order of Malta & Teutonic Order, were established. (I have to leave this issue alone for my true topic)
13. Move on in time and what are the centuries filled with? Kings using this Church for their State purposes and further because of this status of being joined at the hip, church leaders become very Kinglike. Prestigious families gain high-honors in either Church or Nation and often...both. i.e. A King will have an heir to his throne and make another son "a spare-son" a Bishop etc. Also, i.e because a King built a Church he and his family have the high privilege of honored burial and if the King leaves a widow? A safe place for that widow to live out her days in an abbey or monastery.
14. Jan Hus raises issues about all this and what happens? He is told he can come to Rome in safety and is then burned at the stake. So Jesus-like! John Wycliffe rebels against what Rome has and is pushing and comes under intense Roman scrutiny. Had he no Royal King's son to protect him (rich and powerful...John of Gaunt), he too would have been burned. Wycliffe may have escaped the flames, however, after his death, "he was declared a Heretic and his bones were dug-up and burned".
Luther, like Wycliffe and others, had come in contact with the Word of Christ in Greek and Luther, after a visit to Rome, set up a debate about what he reads and what he sees the "Unlike-Christ" Church doing. (It was common practice in a university town to nail a debate upon the Church-door) Luther, with his 95 thesis, was not looking to establish a new Church but he did want serious discussions and corrections based on scripture not privilege. i.e #82 “Why does not the Pope empty purgatory from Charity?” (my words here…and not money)
Rich and powerful Kingly or Papal favorites could buy Bishoprics and own more than one. One man, his name escapes me, had three at the time of Luther's protestation. These guys would "sometimes" find some lesser prelate to do the work in a Bishopric while other times, seats were chiefly empty. The tithes keep rolling in though, that was always enforced.
15. What happened next? Rome tries to nab Luther and like Wycliffe, Luther is very fortunate to have a protecting Noble, the German Elector Frederick the Wise. If not for Frederick, Luther would have been burned just like Jan Hus before and many more after he died.
16. Now, a very fortunate invention now took center-stage, Gutenberg's Printing-Press. Dutchmen, risked their lives and printed Luther’s objections in the German tongue and with Calvin taking the Greek to French and Coverdale & Tyndale taking the Greek-text and translating into English and others, the Reformation was born. It is important to say, that Rome would not give an inch and would have killed all of these men; had Rome made Christ 1st …a lot of horror would not have followed.
The Pope named Henry VIII as "Defender of the Faith" before Henry would eventually murder Tyndale. What a wonderful, model human-being. Killing Tyndale (hiding on the continent) was Henry's duty as he saw it. You must remember, reading the gospel for oneself was Heresy, let alone making it so everyone could read or listen to the Word in their own language.
17. I'm trying to keep this short. What happens next is the "Civil-war of State-Churches" between Nations and their own dissenting people?
a. First Germany and later France implodes to eventually include all of Europe.
18. Let's look at Henry VIII very closely. As I said; the Pope announced Henry as; "Defender of the Faith". What happens with this KING?
a. Henry's brother Arthur soon died after marrying Catherine of Aragon.
b. Henry then marries Catherine, for the same reason Arthur had, she is daughter of the Spanish joint monarchy of Ferdinand & Isabel. Henry & Catherine, as almost all Royal marriages was about possible Kingdom/Nation-creating and creating protective alliances.
c. They are married nearly 20 years but Henry has no son and heir.
d. He wants a son! To hell with his wife, that grew old with him and had several heartbreaking miscarriages trying to please her husband.
e. Henry appeals to the Pope for an annulment, after nearly 20 years! He bases his case on an OLD, not New Testament verse. Leviticus 20:21, which reads; "And if a man takes his brother's wife, it is an unclean thing, he has uncovered his brother's nakedness; and they shall be childless." You see, Kings found the O.T. very handy when needed.
Henry had a daughter, Mary by Catherine and he thought that verse freed him from his marriage to Catherine & Mary. He did not want to admit that his girl was in fact a CHILD, instead he wanted some excuse, any excuse to...get his way! Nothing more. He sure was not about to follow Christ, he had to have a son for his Kingdom's dynasty and nothing more.
f. However, the Pope bent to hear this stuff but did not break.
g. Henry became irate and divorced himself from his wife and then the Roman Church and made himself Pope (in essence) of England. And from then on, through his two daughters and son, all hell broke loose in all of Britain. For the next centuries, a combination of fighting for religious freedom and the heavily mixed up interest of Nations & Thrones killed a lot of people.
I am stopping here because I know this is already long. Any person seeking the truth about Christ and his one church need only read the New Testament and it is very easy to see that his church was taken over and since the masses could not resist anything (for most of this time they could not have known to) on pain of death, this usurpation continued for much of our history.
Today, after the unfortunate but necessary Protestant Reformation, what happened? All kinds of separate denominations were created and that has just meant all kinds of men creating DIVISIONS of Christ’s One Church.
I follow Christ alone and that Faith puts me inside his One Church.
Peace, Love and Joy of life to you, your family, your friends and your neighbors.
____________
"Do your own research"
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 22, 2016 10:32 PM |
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Edited by artu at 22:44, 22 Jul 2016.
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Well, some of the early parts in your post are, of course, biblical history, which is not agreed upon with a consensus from impartial historians but I won't get in to that, since, for you, it's a question of faith.
Two things though:
Markkur said:
Constantine does what next? He goes into Turkey (not Italy) and builds a city named after who? Himself and it is named Constantinople.
Both Italy and Turkey was Roman territory at the time and the decentralization of Rome begins much earlier, right after the times of Julius Caesar. Basically, the empire got too big to rule over from a single point. It's indomitable rise was also the beginning of it's decline.
Markkur said:
Today, after the unfortunate but necessary Protestant Reformation, what happened? All kinds of separate denominations were created and that has just meant all kinds of men creating DIVISIONS of Christ’s One Church.
Do you really think, it's possible for people or communities to interpret the teachings of the NT in a unanimous way? Even with an alternative history purely based on speculation, let's imagine that Romans had not transformed Christianity the way they did and the reform movements had not occured (at least not against a state-religion). Do you really think it's possible for people who live in overwhelmingly different cultures, social conditions, different historical ages, different information or education levels to read a book full of metaphors and symbolism and arrive at identical conclusions? I mean, about the prevalent themes such as "Jesus thought love," it can be achieved to a certain degree. But how about social norms such as slavery, equality of men and woman, treatment of non-believers, divorce in a marriage etc.. How do you apply "the love." There are gay bishops now, they say that the NT is about love, compassion, forgiveness and they see no contradiction between that and their orientation. Do you think somebody from 16th century England could arrive at the same conclusion just by reading the NT? Do you think any church would have allowed it back then, even comprehend to allow it? Was there any reason to doubt the historical factuality of Genesis in a medieval town from 8th century?
Don't you think, the (mostly gradual) reinterpretation of any religion is inevitable at some point? How will you prevent people from understanding "the one true Church" according to their own perspectives? If we were to ask both you and Elodin about the death penalty and what is the Christian perspective on it, both of you as believers of "the one true Church" would hold opposite arguments. Not because you belong to different denominations, because you both find verses in the book that you think supports your existing position. Actually, religions ramifying into denominations is a direct result of that on a greater scale. Various social conditions and infrastructure causes various perspectives and when these perspectives are sociologically similar enough to create a hub, a denomination or sect is born. So as long as a religion is ORGANIZED in some sort of social structure, the social structure will inevitably produce it's sub-categorical theological interpretation. This happens to every religion that spreads around over various cultures and stay around long enough.
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frostysh
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
WHY?
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posted July 23, 2016 12:12 AM |
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Obviously.
The Scientific and technological Progress < = = = > The population rise = = = > The Human Society Progress (Democracy, Free Religion, etc..) = = = > 90% of human population do not care about any theological philosophy nonsense , they have an Internet, TV, and hell lot of a thing to spent a day. = = = > Religion is going down. . . and down. . . and down . .
In general, IMHO the more population the highest technological level of society the less religious folks there.
The religion is no need anymore, even in the meanings of Humanism, because Humanism is now separated from religion.
Kingdom-Nations/Monarchy/Zoroastrism/bla-bla-bla is now obsolete.
None religion can stand popular more than few thousands of years, and After the Scientific Method , and the Education implemented to the society - this time period much more less...
And this is not just words, this is statistic 
Religion only works on a stupid foolish societies, with a low education level - i.e. Pakistan  .
Tech Tree
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted July 23, 2016 07:13 PM |
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Edited by markkur at 19:17, 23 Jul 2016.
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artu said:
Well, some of the early parts in your post are, of course, biblical history, which is not agreed upon with a consensus from impartial historians but I won't get in to that, since, for you, it's a question of faith.
True but there are others that can make a case. I found the link below interesting and there are Archeologists that are making very important finds. I have read most of it before in books but thought I would share the following. My text is valid as "historical-evidence". It does not "prove anything about what happened" and I don't think it ever could.
The Resurrection Argument
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ay_Db4RwZ_M
artu said:
Markkur said:
Constantine does what next? He goes into Turkey (not Italy) and builds a city named after who? Himself and it is named Constantinople.
Both Italy and Turkey was Roman territory at the time and the decentralization of Rome begins much earlier, right after the times of Julius Caesar. Basically, the empire got too big to rule over from a single point. It's indomitable rise was also the beginning of it's decline.
I agree completely, except for one "all important aspect". Rome was in Turkey and ruled...Christianity did not and then Constantine built a "new city".
As I've said, Christ's simple Church of the Heart&Spirit was usurped by an aggressive war-machine called Rome that took over lands all through the M.E. Think about that for a bit and let the ramifications soak in and then think...today.
artu said:
Markkur said:
Today, after the unfortunate but necessary Protestant Reformation, what happened? All kinds of separate denominations were created and that has just meant all kinds of men creating DIVISIONS of Christ’s One Church.
Do you really think, it's possible for people or communities to interpret the teachings of the NT in a unanimous way?
Artu, I can only speak about the West but I believe it is in the West where the problem mostly is today although mainly because of America's sinful society, i.e. it's complete self-focus & the soft-porn embedded in everything (like Zsars' "absorbing sex from the atmosphere" I smiled at his wit but not his topic) while in the general East people in communities are based on community first thinking, I hope that never changes. Christianity is a community based Faith not a Religion based on hermits doing their own thing.
"For wherever 2 or 3 gather, I am in their midst"
Another very, very critical issue (red alert)is this; I found nearly all Christians that I have come in contact with are going to a Church to be SERVED, not to SERVE. What is monumentally sad about this to me, is the selfish individual is not reborn. In essence they've put on a Jesus coat entirely for their own needs. That is not all bad but the baby must grow up or forever remain a babe in swaddling-clothes.
Artu, pick up a N.T. (one way or another) and make a list of requirements about what makes a N.T. church. I've done this and that list is small. i.e. Visit widows, visit prisons, see to needs, say prayers, share the word etc. You will not find most of what is in the modern churches today. Much is man-made. And Frankly too many Churches today resemble Country-Clubs; I even know of a Church with that name because the neighborhood already had that name. Those pious folks did not even pause for a ridiculous name like that.
We have the internet today. Just like the biased mainstream media can be bypassed and the Truth got out at time, this could happen in other ways but first Christians need to get back on Christ alone before they will understand.
artu said:
[Don't you think, the (mostly gradual) reinterpretation of any religion is inevitable at some point? How will you prevent people from understanding "the one true Church" according to their own perspectives? If we were to ask both you and Elodin about the death penalty and what is the Christian perspective on it, both of you as believers of "the one true Church" would hold opposite arguments. Not because you belong to different denominations, because you both find verses in the book that you think supports your existing position. .
Well in my eyes you are mixing things here.
The Death-Penalty is a sentence issued by Secular law here in the States. Are there blood-Thirsty killers in the world today? Yes. Are there innocent men that have died? Yes?
The N.T. does not address Secular Government over crime, it was never meant to. It does address the heart of the individual living in the society but now we move away from your point.
About the reinterpretation, there is no need in Christianity for what was written is simple and universal.
I can agree with a tiny fraction of reinterpretation but by far the most part there is not need. The only truly contentious area I've seen is about women and their role. However, if one remembers that Paul wrote a letter to one Church where major problems were going on and Paul knew the women, it's not hard to see he was settling a conflict detrimental to what he taught there. The Church far more battled with men and outing them in their place.
Women were in fact a part of the early church and did play important roles but it was then and is now...what sort of role and I would say Support. Before anyone bursts a vein it is because I think Women more important than Men. Why? They give birth to Life, they are the future of the Human Race. Today Mothers at home are chastised by much of modern society as low-lifes and yet in my mind, there is no more important job than raising a child. If the home is being invaded then the Father should protect his Family and for a brief moment that would be paramount but in the "day to day" Mother's rule the home and were made that way. My breasts never gave a drop of milk and I went out to earn a living.
In recent decades, women have HAD to assume more and more responsibility in the Church because Men have grown more irresponsible. They've have had no choice. Men began abandoning the home and now women have too.
When I see a conflict of belief and I turn to Christ, if he does not answer it I answer it for myself (think Holy Spirit) but I do not mandate a law about that conflict on anyone else...including my wife. She has to do the same thing for herself. Faith is shared not bludgeoned.
____________
"Do your own research"
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 23, 2016 08:12 PM |
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Markkur said:
Well in my eyes you are mixing things here.
The Death-Penalty is a sentence issued by Secular law here in the States.
Yes, the law is secular, but some Christians are against it because of their faith, while on the other hand, some Christians support it, again, because of their faith. (For example, I remember asking Elodin, if he supports death penalty because it fits the teachings in the Bible or if it's not contradictory to them and he supports it anyway, he replied "both.")
So, people can interpret the same book in a very different way. So:
Markkur said:
Artu, pick up a N.T. (one way or another) and make a list of requirements about what makes a N.T. church. I've done this and that list is small. i.e. Visit widows, visit prisons, see to needs, say prayers, share the word etc. You will not find most of what is in the modern churches today. Much is man-made.
I do have a Bible in my library, actually, I have two, one in Turkish and the King James translation. (Don't get excited though, I also have the Quran, compilations of Greek Mythology, Mayan Mythology, African Mythology and so on.. ). And let me give you an example, let's take a look at divorce, divorce was something that was frowned upon in almost any traditional society (As usual, especially for women.) And for many centuries, it remained as a strong taboo, even if it wasn't completely outlawed. Christianity was in sync with this social norm, the Catholic Church didn't allow people to divorce but then the Reform came and changed that a little bit, we both know King Henry's story etc etc. But those were aristocrats and a divorce was still a very extraordinary and unwanted thing in general. The real change came, after the industrial revolution, as more women started to work, have their economic independence, go to school etc, they also started to demand equality, the right to vote, the right to work under same conditions, the right to make their own choices about their own lives. And once that happened, divorce got more and more common and it slowly ceased to be a taboo. In today's world, most Christians won't think of divorce as something desirable but they wont loath it either. So, there are various theological interpretations about it. Now, let's say you had a divorce. (Maybe you actually did, I remember you talking about a first wife and a separation at some thread but I'm not exactly sure, if it was you.) Now, as a Christian who's a follower of the N.T., you are having a conversation with one of your Christian fellows and he says to you, "how can you do that Markkur, don't you now our Lord forbade it. Matthew 19:9 - Now I say to you that whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another commits adultery. You tell him that there are different interpretations of those verses and that you think it's not against Lord's Command but he insists, the word of our Lord is simple and clear: They are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.
Now, in a society where he is the extreme majority, divorce will keep on remaining a religious taboo and a strong one, and interpretations like the ones in the link above such as Many modern teachers of the Bible find it easy here to interpret Jesus as implying that, since “God has joined” the partners, Jesus is saying that marriage was originally made a permanent institution. The verse teaches nothing of the kind. Jesus does not say, “Since what God joins together is permanent, don’t get a divorce.” To have said that would have been to say exactly what the Pharisees wanted Him to say. It would have shown Him to be teaching contrary to the Old Testament by adding to it (or would that have been a taking away?).342 Jesus affirmed as strongly as possible (without abrogating any teaching of the Law) the obligation of marriage partners to stay married. He said that it is immoral to sever the marriage bond, but not that it is impossible to do so. He does not say, “Since God insures marriage, you should never get a divorce.” won't even be existing because that society won't be needing such an interpretation. However, when it becomes a common thing (painful maybe but common) to have a divorce, more people will demand a church that allows it, which will bless a second marriage and its ceremony etc. So, now you'll have at least two denominations, because on the other hand, you'll also have people who wish to remain loyal to their traditional church, maybe even thinking the new one is twisting the Lord's word for populism and so on. If you apply this situation to many customs, traditions and laws from hundreds of cultures over centuries of social change, you will see that denominations, theology and interpretation of a religious scripture is something that will always ramify like a trees branches.
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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frostysh
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
WHY?
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posted July 24, 2016 03:30 AM |
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Edited by frostysh at 03:34, 24 Jul 2016.
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WOW.
The look from a side:
The artu's arguments is more sane and good, than markkur's stuff, so +1.
. . . more people will demand a church that allows it . . . - The progress of human societies leads to the reformation of religion itself, or the religion itself will be banished.
there With marriage - a very good example.
The Christianity now is a VERY different from the Christianity in the time of a Jesus Christ i.e. that is including the all traditions and stuff...
The all this changing, makes me feel like Christianity has been made by not a God, a Deity, but by a humans.. actually a very creative humans with a good imagination, and perhaps some portion of a proper mushrooms  .
The Psychedelic Origin of Christianity
"Haleluah ma' sisters, haleluah ma' brothers! .. you Mar' drop the next one holy mushroom into fire..."
I am sorry, the inside troll of mine, is somehow triggered on, if this information is too, is a too, too bad, too offensive, I can delete its from post.
P.S. The artu's posts damaging my eyes, so many text.. but I hell do not understand how artu can read the markkur's posts that is actually theological , ..huh, theological text. This can leads for someone will need to use a glasses .. :/
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Baronus
Legendary Hero
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posted July 24, 2016 12:50 PM |
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1) The Christianity before Humanism, was, hmm, little bit non-humanistic. A perfect Historical example is a Crusade with historical
evidence of religious oriented genocide, and even mass-cannibalism..
...
Cannibalism? You read something wrong. Hardest genocide was in XX humanistic-science century.
Humanism in XVI is a facination ancients Greeks and Romans and eg. acception SLAVERY! Situation poor poeple was better before humanism eg. peasants and workers. Slavery in colonies was genocide. Pope was first who condemn slavery. See pope Leo about 1515 year.
Communist is ideology which crimininalised christianity.
Ancient philosophy and law was importatant in West jump but most important was christianity. Ancient civilisation collapsed between 400 and 500 year. Reconstruction Western civilisation was on christianity between 500 and 1500 y. THOUSAND YEARS! In 1200 year all western scientist are priests and monks! Monks copied ancient text because paper is weak.
...
Christianity in Africa looks completly another with comparision eg, with Poland where we have present Youth Days. But it is the same religion! INCULTURATION! But it is the same Evangelion. The same Dekalog... No changes.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 24, 2016 02:14 PM |
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Edited by artu at 14:17, 24 Jul 2016.
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Slavery didn't start with colonialism, it has been around since ancient times in various forms, and side by side with Christianity through out most of the history of Christian nations just the same. When it had started to be seen as something that needs to be abolished, this was due too much different reasons than religion and as usual, both sides of the argument among Christians, pro-slavery and abolitionist, tried to support themselves with verses from the Bible (and not just the Old Testament.)
Christianity is also not the reason behind Western rise during and after the Enligtenment, obviously it was the Enligtenment itself that was case-specific to that rise, not Christianity, which had not gave the same results anywhere else or through the medieval times which some historians even refer as the dark ages. And the characteristic of the Enlightenment is to abandon dogma in favor of reason and secularize the political system and law by limiting religious influence.
In pre-enligtenment times, it would be expected that many scientists came out from monks or priests because the church owned the libaries, books, scrolls, all the data. And scientific cosmology at that time, was not on a level to contradict with mtyhological aspects of the religion. Similar thing happened with the Arabs during 12th century, Muslim scholars started translating Ancient Greek texts and they came out with things such as algebra, chemistry. That doesnt mean that Quran produces science though, does it.
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted July 24, 2016 06:29 PM |
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Artu, Did I not say that the N.T. needs no interpretation and about divorce Jesus is very clear.
Easy divorce in modern American society is more like the Jewish law pre-Christ FACT and not the N.T. There is a reason for that and if I write "part-2 of "my Timeline" I will explain that reason.
Very briefly; and I'll explain...GENERALLY
1. Putting SEX first in creating relationships is NOT love it is lust. The cart of Attraction does come "before" the horse of True-Commitment but it must be disciplined and not become the 1st foundation of a relationship.
2. When two people have sex that naturally creates a cheap intimacy. But it is a shallow intimacy based on emotions and to a degree...release of nervous tension. The bio-drive to procreate is there too but let's face it...this feels good and costs nothing without commitment.
3. Then the couple says, let's live together.
4. For the record, sex can make babies.
5. Man usually but sometimes woman says I need "some strange". Because after all, the relationship was based on sex and if all that was really going on was orgasm then...the grass gets greener on the other side of the fence and fairly quickly. Especially when Pornography is involved, because the sacred-fence is already broken in mind and not long after, the body will follow.
6. Because the get-together was based on sex and not decisional love it ends and someone has a kid or two out of wedlock to look after.
Now, there are exceptions but they seem to be getting rarer today. A couple may have sex first, get married and last or live together and last which is (actually in-effect) married also. You see it's the Commitment. Deciding to love some one "no matter what comes down the path of life" is true love in action....period.
What has been the result of easy divorce? A growing plague of our precious children being raised by 1 Parent...IF THAT now. Children need both a mother and father and for very different reasons. Women and Men are different in many ways (usually) and they both bring very good stuff to the table for the kids as well as each other. I am a more balanced human-being because of my wife and she would say the same. Our union created one greater person in mind, body and spirit.
Modern American society has largely destroyed the Family and it's no surprise that casual sex outside marriage is the chief culprit. Instant gratification takes many forms and the fast-food, buy it now, me-first mentalities and "can't wait or work for anything" is responsible for much of what is wrong in society today. Having people change partners in life as fast as they see movies or buy games and phones will lead to total destruction once society has reached a point where no one has any memory of what Marriage & Love both meant.
However, when you are crappy to the people around you, you will lose friends or not make any, but when you have a child & divorce your spouse and have abortions you destroy the nation, one small child at a time.
You can see this result real-time in the West today. Life is NOT sacred, millions of human-life have been killed and what is that result now? "We need more taxpayers!" Oh yeah? "We need more workers" (supposedly) and now what? Bring the rest of the world in "at once" WITHOUT any controls and we will be one happy family. Yeah...right.
Christ was correct in what he mandated. EOS
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted July 24, 2016 06:51 PM |
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Edited by Gryphs at 18:53, 24 Jul 2016.
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markkur said:
Life is NOT sacred
You act as if this is a new concept. Keep in mind how many lives your god has ordered executed or damned to eternal torture for meaningless "crimes".
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"Don't resist the force. Redirect it. Water over rock."-blizzardboy
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 24, 2016 07:08 PM |
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Edited by artu at 19:12, 24 Jul 2016.
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Quote:
Artu, Did I not say that the N.T. needs no interpretation and about divorce Jesus is very clear.
Yeah, Christians with quite different perspectives on many issues including divorce, are all certain "Jesus was very clear about it and supported their side" though. That was the point.
For the rest of your post, let me briefly say:
1- A long-term marriage, especially one that lasts because divorce is a taboo does not mean there is love in it. And the idea that love is the main reason to get married is actually quite modern. In older days, aristocrats mostly married for alliances and common folk married "because, that's just what you do when you reach the age of 16." Marriage was mostly seen as an institution of division of labor, rather than romantic love. And of course, today, if you insist on a marriage even if the love isn't there anymore, what you'll get will be resentment on both sides, rather than commitment. You know those couples who practically hate each other...
That being said, I agree that people are generally way too consuming when it comes to relationships these days. Married or not, I really don't care about that part.
2- In countries where the local population is decreasing, the ratio of aborted fetuses are a very insignificant part of that. Even if you ban abortion, most people will use protection and still have 2-3 kids tops, unlike the crowded, agricultural families of old times. Every children's education and upbringing is quite expensive now, you can't just put 6 of them in the same room, and tell them to start plowing the fields and be a farmer like the rest of the family when they reach the age of 10.
Also, it's quite an inconsistent position for you to complain about many contemporary issues in other threads, which are highly related to population growth and then also stand up against people giving less birth.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted July 25, 2016 01:24 AM |
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Gryphs said:
markkur said:
Life is NOT sacred
You act as if this is a new concept. Keep in mind how many lives your god has ordered executed or damned to eternal torture for meaningless "crimes".
Christ killed no one. His only referral to death is the 2nd death in the after life. Keep it straight.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted July 25, 2016 01:29 AM |
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artu said:
Also, it's quite an inconsistent position for you to complain about many contemporary issues in other threads, which are highly related to population growth and then also stand up against people giving less birth.
Oh good grief. There is a big difference in Total-freakin-prevention and not giving a damn about human-life after creating a baby after unwed-lust...and killing it. You are smart enough to understand that Artu.
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted July 25, 2016 01:29 AM |
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Edited by Gryphs at 01:36, 25 Jul 2016.
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markkur said:
Gryphs said:
markkur said:
Life is NOT sacred
You act as if this is a new concept. Keep in mind how many lives your god has ordered executed or damned to eternal torture for meaningless "crimes".
Christ killed no one. His only referral to death is the 2nd death in the after life. Keep it straight.
His father did. Are you denying the existence of the old testament? And do not say that this is just about Christ because anything that involves him involves his master too. Just because Christ was sent to redeem a small portion of the population and preach love does not change what his father did before that.
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"Don't resist the force. Redirect it. Water over rock."-blizzardboy
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted July 25, 2016 02:04 AM |
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markkur said:
artu said:
Also, it's quite an inconsistent position for you to complain about many contemporary issues in other threads, which are highly related to population growth and then also stand up against people giving less birth.
Oh good grief. There is a big difference in Total-freakin-prevention and not giving a damn about human-life after creating a baby after unwed-lust...and killing it. You are smart enough to understand that Artu.
Well, you don't seem to lack the common sense to realize that abortion is not some regular birth control method, it's not something a woman takes lightly, neither physically nor psychologically. Women have abortion under exceptional situations, and it's not always about "unwed-lust" either, married women also abort. They certainly don't have unprotected sex, night after night, and go to a clinic three times a month afterwards like they are having a wax. So,
Quote:
Life is NOT sacred, millions of human-life have been killed and what is that result now? "We need more taxpayers!" Oh yeah? "We need more workers" (supposedly) and now what? Bring the rest of the world in "at once"
is not an argument right on the spot, is it.
I won't get into why abortion isn't murder, because I've said enough about that in the related thread.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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frostysh
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
WHY?
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posted July 25, 2016 03:44 AM |
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Baronus said:
Cannibalism? You read something wrong. Hardest genocide was in XX humanistic-science century.
Humanism in XVI is a facination ancients Greeks and Romans and eg. acception SLAVERY! Situation poor poeple was better before humanism eg. peasants and workers. Slavery in colonies was genocide. Pope was first who condemn slavery. See pope Leo about 1515 year.
What a hell similar you have found in the dominant mass-control political ideologies of XX c. and Humanism O.o?
Quote:
Goebbels and General Steinmann in the Vatican.
Nazis and Catholic Church - spirituallysmart.com
BEWARE: The resource itself looks like a hard propaganda. I have no time to read it.
The anything has been banded under the political ideology, the churches is not an exception.... The same as in was in the time of "West Roman Empire/East Roman Empire" etc...
1) A very remarkable Historical event of a mass-cannibalism, and perhaps even with religious nature - Siege of Ma'arra - "Eat my flesh and drink my blood" . I am sorry...
2) The "Humanism" of the Ancient Greeks and Romans, was a little bit.. hm, "inhuman" . Or more preciously a very close to the pathetic human nature . The Greeks and the Romans was no different from a "barbarians" in that case. Only little bit more organized.
3) 1515 year , ~1,500 years of a slavery acceptation and only then disagree with it, when the Enlightening has been in the roll . Of course the Christianity was a milestone to the Humanism itself, but this was hell not a cause... And of course humanism like things make a HUGE influance on the society = = = > on the Christianity itself.
IMHO the Christianity was a very sharp milestone to the Humanism, and it's actually the reason of a many horrors through the History of Mankind. . .
I.e. After the "Black Death of Europe" no more "healing with Lay on Hands skill" was in the roll, only the clean hands and the Medicine . The Christian priests using only in case of a , of a the human is almost dead cases.. Before it they was like a doctors..
Usually anything that Church prclaimed as "bad" suffers. so i.e. if someone wants to study an Anatomy to help the peoples, this someone can have a problem with Christian Church, because of Word of God... -
And what about nowadays - pffffffff. Nobody cares. The Progress.
Quote:
"[Slavery] was established by decree of Almighty God...it is sanctioned in the Bible, in both Testaments, from Genesis to Revelation...it has existed in all ages, has been found among the people of the highest civilization, and in nations of the highest proficiency in the arts." Jefferson Davis, President, Confederate States of America
XIX c, A.D.
Chirstianity and Slavery - www.religioustolerance.or - The resource itself is looks a weird, perhaps a hard propaganda.
Just for an example..
Baronus said:
Communist is ideology which crimininalised christianity.
Yeah, almost the same with a Nationalism Ideology.
Baronus said:
Ancient philosophy and law was importatant in West jump but most important was christianity. Ancient civilisation collapsed between 400 and 500 year. Reconstruction Western civilisation was on christianity between 500 and 1500 y. THOUSAND YEARS! In 1200 year all western scientist are priests and monks! Monks copied ancient text because paper is weak.
"Reconstruction of Western Civilization" - what a hell is that? O.o The attempt of Nazis to make a 3rd Raich, or what? Please explain it in the more "normal" terms.
Yeah, there was priests, and monks, and even some-kind of a scholars, and stuff... And why this "great jump" is take so long in time...? Perhpas because of Christianity too . Or perhaps of problems of translating texts fro Arabic to the Latin?
Baronus said:
Christianity in Africa looks completly another with comparision eg, with Poland where we have present Youth Days. But it is the same religion! INCULTURATION! But it is the same Evangelion. The same Dekalog... No changes.
Yeah, and the almost "same" history... That including the colonization, slavery, genocide (as you have mentioned), and using of the whole populations like goods supply for a Europe + Islam there, the concurrent . The almost all the "same"...
The Africa itself is a FAR more unpleasant for the any monotheistic , centralized religion like a Christianity or the Islam than well connected in the all cases Europe.
The was a many hundreds of years for a rural tribes on some territory at the Africa to be converted in some one religion...
Even in the nowadays, with a cars, with a aircraft, with a mass-Christian-propaganda-media , it is not such easy task...
Quote:
A map of the world, showing the major religions distributed in the world as of today. A different type of map which views only the religion as a whole excluding denominations or sects of the religions, and is colored by how the religions are distributed not by main religion of country etc.
Major Religious Groups - Wikipedia
I like the idea about the psychedelic origin of the Christianity! I have hear about this before, But I was too lazy to investigate it, perhaps now is the time!
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Baronus
Legendary Hero
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posted July 25, 2016 11:08 AM |
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Edited by Baronus at 19:36, 25 Jul 2016.
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Where in Bible you find cannibalism?
"Eat my flesh and drink my blood"
!!!!
YOU THINK IT IS PRAISE OF CANNIBALISM? REALLY?
It is bread and wine!
Its to hard to understand for you if christians dont understand. It is mystery of Jesus transformation.
Dont read literal Bible its wrong interpretation. Catholics dont eat people. They receive bread and wine. And this bread and wine is Jesus Flesh. Real Flesh but its not cannibalism. Its hard. You can read Rene Girard "Sacrificed goat".
Dont read idiotic sites:
http://spirituallysmart.com/nazi.html
WHAT I READ!!!
Poland – Frank !!!!!
FRANK FROM POLAND???
Hans Frank was a GERMAN NAZIST! He murdered polish people!
This site was prepared by bad liar people.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Frank
Beware of internet lies.
True is here:
http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xi/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xi_enc_14031937_mit-brennender-sorge.html
Mit brennender Sorge encyclica by Pius XI IN GERMAN LANGUGAGE!!! Standard is latin! Condemnation of nazism.
Sorry im wrong. I found better data:
http://walkinginthedesert.com/2015/05/05/the-popes-against-slavery/
Pope Eugene IV and the start of the condemnations
Pope Eugene had condemned the slavery which was to come about during the Age of Exploration and the Atlantic slave trade as soon as it was discovered. Pope Eugene had issued a papal bull Sicut Dudum on January 13, 1435 in which he condemned the enslavement of the Guanches and other peoples of the Canary Islands which had started to be colonized. Pope Eugene IV wrote to those who had allowed themselves to be involved in this slave trade:
“We exhort, through the sprinkling of the Blood of Jesus Christ shed for their sins, one and all, temporal princes, lords, captains, armed man, barons, soldiers, nobles, communities, and all others of every kind among the Christian faithful of whatever state, grade or condition, that they themselves desist from the aforementioned deeds.”
....
JANUARY 13, 1435 HISTORICAL DATA! FIRST OFFICIAL DOCUMENT WITH SLAVERY CONDEMNATION BECAUSE MORALITY!
Others can fight with slavery if... it destroy their business. Bible is only one reason to this condemnation. For ancients and humanism people it was business as usual...
In 400-600 was civisilisation collapse. Between 600 and 700 we have 1! chronicle in Western. BARBARISATION! 700-1300 was a reconstruction.
Evangelion in Africa is the same like in Europe. Religion is spirit question. Not food, clothing, dancing...
...
I like the idea about the psychedelic origin of the Christianity ! I have hear about this before, But I was too lazy to investigate it,
perhaps now is the time!
.....
Dont read idiotisms you harm your spirit and mind. If you want know about christianity you must read Christ. Simple and logical.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted July 25, 2016 06:42 PM |
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artu said:
Well, you don't seem to lack the common sense to realize that abortion is not some regular birth control method, it's not something a woman takes lightly, neither physically nor psychologically.
What I think is not law and what the people want dictates but for me human life is more important than about anything else on the planet.
I will say one last thing about "pre/born babies". If your girl gets pregnant and you do nothing to harm that fetus you will generally have a baby in about 9 months. And married women killing their babies is not an argument against my POV...it bolsters it. When things go wrong in society they progressively get worse and it's called...growing-acceptance put in practice. However, in the event of true "oops" and I mean TRUE, (defective rubbers or missed pills etc./people are human afterall-makers and users) there are people than cannot have babies and that should be made much easier than it is today.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted July 25, 2016 07:09 PM |
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Edited by markkur at 19:11, 25 Jul 2016.
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Gryphs said:
His father did. Are you denying the existence of the old testament? And do not say that this is just about Christ because anything that involves him involves his master too.
OLD is the key word here.
If one actually follows Christ, God is much different. When he spoke of the Father, he spoke of "reflecting the Father" and what Jesus said and did...reflected our new Faith. He healed people and what was the condition for the person every time? "Your Faith has healed you." He went Spiritually head-to-head with those of dead religion wrapped in priestly-robes for earthly gain and in the end Christ laid down his life and that is the true reflection of God and Love. Christ was freedom for the masses and still is.
Christ gave us only 2 Laws and if you will see the depth of those two laws,(the 2 absorb the OLD 10 and universally a lot more to come) you will realize there is no need for other "natural laws" between people.
Christianity is about the New Covenant and the New Testament and about a historical Jesus. So if you want talk Christianity I will continue.
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