|
|
Svartzorn
Known Hero
Dead struggling with death.
|
posted November 27, 2015 03:53 PM |
|
|
Not true, lemmy.
Here are a couple of differences from what I can quickly remember:
I - procedence of the Holy Ghost (question of the filioque);
II - use of fermented bread in Communion;
III - Different ways of proceeding to the Chrismation;
IV - Different saints;
V - Different conceptions of sin;
VI - The orthodox do not believe in purgatory;
VII - Regarding the Most Holy Theotokos, the orthodox do not believe in Immaculate Conception or the idea that she acts as co-redemptrix as some catholics say;
VIII - Different Church structure and different patriarch prerrogatives (there's no such thing as the Pope in the Orthodox Church, and the orthodox reject the idea of infalibility);
IX - different fasting rules;
And so on...
I recommend that you check it out, if it's your purpose to seek Christ in your life.
Checking it or not, rock out 
____________
Death to the world.
|
|
Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
|
|
posted November 27, 2015 04:37 PM |
|
|
Thank you. And my point was that we cannot be One Church again with the West, you elaborated. 
|
|
Neraus
Promising
Legendary Hero
Pain relief cream seller
|
|
posted November 27, 2015 06:17 PM |
|
|
Svartzorn said:
VII - Regarding the Most Holy Theotokos, the orthodox do not believe in Immaculate Conception or the idea that she acts as co-redemptrix as some catholics say;
Pretty ungrateful, we won at Lepanto thanks to her praying to her Son, also, the Pope was once asked personally by her to do a special prayer with all the Orthodox patriarchs to save Russia from its errors and the spreading of said errors.
____________
Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
|
|
Kayna
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted November 27, 2015 08:56 PM |
|
|
I read the bible ( even though it's not my kind of read and forgot most of it ), and to me, it was a story.
At first, humans tries to explain their reason for existence and come up with god. The little books piles up. At some point, someone writes laws in it and says to obey or else you go to hell, bringing a form of crime control. Later on, the concept of the son of God ( Jesus ) is introduced. Various powerful Jew came up with the idea and the intention of one day bringing a divine king to rule over all. Someone else understood the scheme and either passed himself as Jesus or brainwashed his kid that he was Jesus. Thus Jesus did not come from the house of David, like the Jew wanted.
Jesus traveled around and did his thing, convincing everyone that he was Jesus. Then ended up crucified by the Romans and Jew. And that's when the Jew plan for divine domination was thwarted and Christianity became for the people. It worked for I dont know how many years, maybe 100 or 200, ask someone knowledgeable for a precise answer, and kings considered divine and appointed by God started showing up.
Jesus was a godless genius that saved many lol
|
|
Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
|
|
posted November 27, 2015 08:59 PM |
|
|
|
Interesting opinion Kayna. I disagree, but it's still a position I can understand.
|
|
Homer171
Promising
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted November 27, 2015 09:58 PM |
|
|
Thanks for your opinions kayna. True that people have always beliaved there is a God/s. Many old cultures proves that people have worshiped idols and some sort of religions have been around. The existence of humankind and how we ponder these things and how there is even life, has always made me think there is a God. We know that our universe is not forever but there gotta be lifeforce before that. Nothing comes alive from nothing. If there where some lifeforce an a meteor what striked the earth and all life grow up from that dna, what created that lifeforce in the begin whit?
That all convinced me that there can be a God. Younger, I tough as many others, that all religions are little fragments of the truth. But after I found the truth in Christ Jesus there was no any question about it. Or let's rather say He founded me. All that are searching the 'truth' He has promised to reveal it who seeks for it.
If you have read the New Testament letters. It's obvious that the writers do know the resurrected Christ or they are completely insane. Persecutions and all that hardships in life, no one would stand it if they really beliaved it. What's the gain if all just ideals? No they'fought' for their faith. Many christian today have experienced persecutions aswell. I have witnessed in my own life it really is real but that don't alone convince others, of course they need to 'experience' them selfs. I remember when somebody asked me to come some christian meeting to hear 'God's Word' and to be SAVED. I was so annoyed about, saved? Little did i know, it changed my life completely and hopefully the coming one aswell 
____________
Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.
|
|
Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
|
|
posted November 27, 2015 10:07 PM |
|
|
Homer, I agree about the New Testament epistles as the very least thing that should make one wonder, but of course some will deny their authorship or that they were written in the 1st century AD... not gonna go there. 
|
|
Svartzorn
Known Hero
Dead struggling with death.
|
|
posted November 27, 2015 11:21 PM |
|
|
Neraus said:
Pretty ungrateful, we won at Lepanto thanks to her praying to her Son, also, the Pope was once asked personally by her to do a special prayer with all the Orthodox patriarchs to save Russia from its errors and the spreading of said errors.
You said it. Thanks to her praying to her Son.
Are the prayers of our heavenly Mother effective? Yes.
Does she have powers granted for her obedience to God's will? Yes.
Is the Virgin Mary the most perfect human being, standing above all celestials hosts and angelical orders, being only under the Holy Trinity? Definetly.
But she does not bring redemption as Christ does. Her power does not come from her, but from God. She was not, as Christ, born without sin, bur rather erased sin from her since an early age.
I think catholics exaggerate her role, even though it's already a pretty big one.
@kanya: I think your position is pretty... naive.
God is not some invisible guy made up to justify human existence, it's a logical consequence of this question. Besides, your position makes no sense:
Do humans come up with God to justify their existence or is this concept introduced later?
The "little books" actually come after the connection to God is already weakened, since oral tradition is superior to written tradition.
"Hell" is not intended as a form of control, it's a logic consequence of a departure from God. Besides, that allegation does not take in account religious beliefs in which Hell is a strange idea.
The lineage of Christ is pretty solid. It's not your suppositions that are going to change that.
____________
Death to the world.
|
|
Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
|
|
posted November 27, 2015 11:32 PM |
|
|
|
Werll of course nothing can change what Truth is but people can choose not to believe it.
|
|
Homer171
Promising
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted November 28, 2015 12:11 AM |
|
|
As a protestant aim completely unware of any catholic or orthodox traditions. To me they are puzzling because i don't find them in bible, i don't say they are all wrong, just that i don't understand them or see need for them. Like example:
1. Virgin Mary: I have never prayed at her and I don't see why should we incording to bible that is. We pray the Father tough Jesus in Holy Spirit.
2. Saints: Now i understand that we should respect them, what they stand for in life. Paul and Peter for instance what great men of God, it's good we charice those memories what they and all saints in the past have done. But what's whit the praying in their name or collecting their bones and thinking they do something? Some early bishops or i don't know the right word for them, christian leaders even wanted to their execution to be burning or something that does not leave a body that their followers, disciples would not start worshipping their bones etc.
3. No doctorines outside the Holy Bible. Of course every church has it own 'rules' i suppose. Jesus where very clear on this, why do neglet the law of God by making your own rules, it is the same today unfortunately.
These are just my opinions. This is somewhat protestant view of things but important for me here is what does the Holy Bible say of these things.
Please don't stone me 
____________
Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.
|
|
markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
|
|
posted November 28, 2015 09:22 AM |
|
Edited by markkur at 09:41, 28 Nov 2015.
|
For me there is nothing more real than Christ and this is for a very simple reason, everything he said was important is very important to the actualized progress of mankind...only if followed.
People look at the Bible and see a book of laws and in it's entirety, there is much truth in that observation. But Christians are suppossed to be following Christ alone and he was only foretold in the O.T. and then becomes flesh and blood in the N.T.
This has been and is a huge problem not only for Christianity but for the world. There has been too much un-Jesus behavior that has came from clinging to O.T. teaching. i.e. "eye for an eye". Christ did not teach "eye for an eye" and yet in Northern Ireland for decades we had two denomiations living by the age-old creed of Revenge; btw, which is the typical knee-jerk response for all mankind...all people. If I say I follow the Good creed but I live as Baddy's act without thinking and constraint, than my claim to being a member of the Good creed is merely a wish and no fact.
Maybe revenge is <ahem> 'normal' but it is the best mankind can do? Jesus said it is not and had many men and women that lived out that he told the truth. Many of those folks are still remembered today and not because they did as they wanted or reacted but because they had learned to become human-beings of <hmm> say, higher-quality.
The greatest part of the message of Christ is Love and as imaginative as I am I cannot think of a better force to drive the universe than Love. It always dismayed me to walk into a church (any) and see the usual scene; lots of folks depending on someone else (usually a pastor, priest etc.) to read the Word of Christ to them and not bring their copy with them to Church, to at least...read-along. At minimum, the N.T. should be in their own hand. And at minimum they should be ready to question what they hear. You see, every person needs to understand Christ for themselves and not discharge that duty to any other soul.
Another aspect that "babes in Christ" often have is wearing the "Jesus-coat" and doing nothing more. Putting on the Jesus-coat Sunday morning and taking it off Sunday afternoon. This is mere folly. Change comes from practice and obediance never from "nice-thoughts" alone.
Another newer development in American is the prosperity-Gospel where the claim to fame is wish-fulfillment in a nursery school setting. Today the masses are being deluded by the "have it all now" soothing sermons from pipers that are worse than the whited-sepulchurs Christ revealed. He said we would see "wolves in sheeps clothing" and he was not joking. He was dead serious because this is a deadly matter to many lives.
He promised a hard narrow-way, among other things and <imo> the most important thing that anyone here or anywhere else can do, is "read Christ and Christ alone for a good stretch of time", for themselves.(nothing esle in the Bible) Unless a person is incapable of simple learning, each person will make their own connection to God and if they practice more than preach that connection, they will be much better off and therefore so will friends and family around this person because they will be living as a Christian and not some misguided religious nutcase. They will know when someone else is spouting error and also smell the wolf when it nears and be cautious.
The following is not very good but I was a new poet then but much more important I had the right purpose. We have to walk before we can run. Or as Paul said master milk before venturing to eat meat.
"Wolves"
It is obvious who they serve,
and it's not the Lord above.
Money is their master,
and not the kingdom of love.
They need more and more,
as they bleed God's children dry.
They are on a selfish trip,
to build mansions in the sky.
Like stray bullets,
they hit were they can.
Building an earthly empire,
is the fruit of their master plan.
To whom much is given,
all will be accounted for.
It comes from the faithful,
who are often very poor.
They make crystal cathedrals,
and schools that bear their names.
What will they teach the world?
pride and begging games?
Their monogrammed monuments,
soak up more and more.
Like an onrushing monster,
and we can't close the door.
Wake up you people of vision,
look away from you're own dreams.
Can't you see the real needs?
can't you hear the children scream?
Wolves in sheep's clothing and false preachers,
the good book says beware.
Only God knows your heart.
A voice in the wilderness says take care.
Markkur 1984
____________
"Do your own research"
|
|
fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted November 28, 2015 11:10 AM |
|
|
@ markkur: love is a good base to build oneself from, but love alone will not work without wisdom. the bible states that man has dominion over all things. and he does. but mankind has taken that and run with it. mankind forgets what keeps them alive: the environments around them(be it by gods or science, take your pick). the life on the planet itself; live that is given by the sun. if any gods are in charge of that, is besides the point of how someone should conduct themselves while alive.
i can't be on board with something that doesn't take practical responsibility into account. which is why the closest thing to my beliefs are a mix of laveyan satanism and the church of euthanasia. both teach that one's self is the utmost responsible for one's own life. both teach(if you see through the hype), that stupidity is the worst sin anyone can commit. and i wholeheartedly agree with that.
as i said, love is a good base to build oneself from. but it has to be practical in nature. loving your enemies can get you killed, should they want to use your weakness(or strength, if you want to view it that way) against you. loving oneself, and not the environments that sustain you, is a fool's outlook; and one that i see far too often with people(and is a flaw i see in laveyan satanism as well, but nobody gets it just right). the earth is not a playground to be used however people want, and the bible pretty much teaches that(as for other religious texts, someone will have to inform me).
i am a practical person. i don't have faith, because it has been systematically destroyed over the years by people in general, as well as by simply reading religious texts and finding flaw after flaw. that people take the words of a book as the words of a god, is beyond my understanding. to me, it's a fantasy world they're living in, much more so than the "society" illusions. i think it's a dangerous way of thinking; to those who think that way, to others who don't, and to the world at large(and this is easily evident to anyone who has even a basic grasp of human history). religion, for me, doesn't teach responsibility. it teaches that what you do in this life has repercussions in the afterlife; which is an abstract idea to most human minds, and one i feel, they don't really take seriously anyway. i see people hiding behind that excuse, in case they do something bad. i see the whole "jesus forgives as long as you accept him" thing to be an utter cop-out; and the opposite of personal responsibility. that teaches people that they can pretty much do whatever they want, and as long as they say sorry, it's ok. and it's not. it's SO snowing not.
i can't have faith in anything that strokes the already flawed human ego; that tells people that they are first and foremost in this world, above all else(instead of just another cog, if even that, in a delicate natural machine); and tells people that whatever they do, they can be forgiven. the consequences of such a way of thinking... well, we've all seen them. and we'll continue to. it has been, always WAS, and always WILL BE, irresponsible; for a supposedly "advanced" race of semi-intelligent mammals. it's child-think(and what adults are teaching their children nowadays, which is frightening for the future of mankind), plain and simple. it's not how a responsible adult should ever be.
there are consequences to every action. you may not see them, but things tend to have a ripple effect, that is slow or quick, depending on the action, and the environment. whatever mistakes you make, you may not see in time, but others will; because your mistake will end up involving them. just like the generations before us, what we do, how we act, will be felt for generations afterward. you can't just write that off, for whatever reason. the mistakes or abuses people make, don't die when they do. those mistakes carry on.
|
|
Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
|
|
posted November 28, 2015 11:33 AM |
|
|
Like I said:
"Do unto others..." isn't popular, and yet the Bible says: Faith without works is dead.
|
|
Neraus
Promising
Legendary Hero
Pain relief cream seller
|
|
posted November 28, 2015 01:09 PM |
|
Edited by Neraus at 13:22, 28 Nov 2015.
|
Svartzorn said:
Neraus said:
Pretty ungrateful, we won at Lepanto thanks to her praying to her Son, also, the Pope was once asked personally by her to do a special prayer with all the Orthodox patriarchs to save Russia from its errors and the spreading of said errors.
You said it. Thanks to her praying to her Son.
Are the prayers of our heavenly Mother effective? Yes.
Does she have powers granted for her obedience to God's will? Yes.
Is the Virgin Mary the most perfect human being, standing above all celestials hosts and angelical orders, being only under the Holy Trinity? Definetly.
But she does not bring redemption as Christ does. Her power does not come from her, but from God. She was not, as Christ, born without sin, bur rather erased sin from her since an early age.
I think catholics exaggerate her role, even though it's already a pretty big one.
Well, we had a revelation, she herself stated to us that she was the Immaculate Conception.
She is called co-redemptrix because she by herself cannot bring redemption to men, but rather because, as you said yourself, she is one of the most powerful figures, so her prayers have a special place in God's eyes, and her being the advocate of mankind to God gives her this role, in fact, there is a huge number of revelations attributed to her that talk about our state and what should we do to avoid utter destruction.
There is this misconception that we Catholics worship The Saint Holy Mother of God as a goddess herself, I don't know of an appropriate analogy, but she is both extremely important, but still a mortal graced by God, so not a goddess, but rather the being with most grace unto God.
The whole point of praying to either her or any saint is sorely in virtue of them being in the highest graces to God, so they should be able to "put a good word about us".
But I'm happy nonetheless that you still attribute to her an important role, unlike certain folk which believe she was simply a woman...
This is, by the way, one of the reasons why I believe the Orthodox to be almost in the right, and are the ones I tolerate the most, but still, you should return to Rome, with your help we may restore tradition and finally banish those boyscouts that invaded our Churches...
Homer171 said:
3. No doctorines outside the Holy Bible. Of course every church has it own 'rules' i suppose. Jesus where very clear on this, why do neglet the law of God by making your own rules, it is the same today unfortunately.
Not gonna stone you, don't worry, but.
The problem lies with the concept of Sola Scriptura, it also depends on the canon books, but the point is that the first Christians, so the men who were either in contact with Christ Himself or the Apostles, made up a tradition, if those who were ordained by God to spread the word and convert the masses didn't go against them there is a reason.
And it's not like it's a lack of punishment, the very first misconceptions and disobediences were indeed punished.
There is also the problem of God's language, did you really think that a God that gave you the choice to follow him would spell it clearly that He exists?
That is the reason why we have to interpret things, it's not a coincidence that the Apocalypse of St.John is considered one of the most difficult books to understand, due to the obscure language that God uses to communicate with us, so you need a correct interpretation of every passage.
There is also the problems of parables, metaphors and allegories. Christ cursed a fig tree, going literally God seems a bit crazy at that point, but, interpreting correctly, and considering that the fig tree not giving fruit was the symbol of Israel (as I've read) it was a warning to the Jews.
The people at the time also had a different understanding, and the Aramaic speaking people had also special patterns of speech, and so on...
That is the reason why we reject the notion of Sola Scriptura, and instead we aid ourselves through tradition and theology, and, if we're lucky even through divine revelation.
____________
Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
|
|
Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
|
|
posted November 28, 2015 03:16 PM |
|
|
I understand sola Scriptura, solus Christus, soli Deo gloria and specifically the lack of saints to a great extent, even if others can't but... "sola fide" and "sola gratia" are misleading a little to me, since the New Testament says clearly that faith only won't get you far... unless it's true faith.
That is, you also need to practice what your preach, grow in faith as they say, and thus do what's right in the eyes of the Lord.
And of course it's called Christianity for a reason to me personally: Look to Christ and then the disciples first and foremost, and not what people later said about it. That can also be good, but it also gave way to differences... 
|
|
markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
|
|
posted November 28, 2015 05:06 PM |
|
|
fred79 said:
if any gods are in charge of that, is besides the point of how someone should conduct themselves while alive.
I totally disagree. For me the acknowledgement of the Spirit within each of us is self evident, for we are filled with the unseen. We might be able to talk about love but you can't fill a cup with the stuff or hate for that matter. However, back to our needing instruction, look at it this way; I believe with all that I am, that what Christ taught is what we were made to be and not self-centered and self-focused pleasure maniacs only after a buzz. I think this IS the "natural" central law behind human life. Just like Newton's law of gravity or any other natural law this is the way it is because it is how we were made. i.e Christ said; What does it profit a man to gain the world and lose his soul" I know my friend with all you rage against about this world you have seen this very thing; people having absolutely no limits to their greed.
However, the world is mostly teaching SELF. Me, Me, Me, and it has been for quite a spell now and on that note we agree. But you acting ignorant when it comes to painting all people of faith as selfish; on the contrary, we have had to forgive people for their best interest and in the end our own. That is a spirit of understanding and unity, not of division and just rewards.
Accountable for actions? I don't know what Jesus you read, or if you read but because of Him, I am accountable for everything thing I think, let alone what I do. Doing is the easy part.
|
|
Homer171
Promising
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted November 28, 2015 05:12 PM |
|
|
I like the statements of belief apostolic and nikean but those are lined whit the Word of God.
Quote:
That is the reason why we reject the notion of Sola Scriptura, and instead we aid ourselves through tradition and theology, and, if we're lucky even through divine revelation.
That's dangerous for my knowlage. Because Jesus teached when Holy Spirit comes He will teach you everything. All that is in the Bible are good for us and God has promised Holy Spirit will teach us to know the truth and all the truth. Revelations and theology are both fine, i have use for them both but we need to combare everything incording to Bible.
Bible says if even an Angel from heaven breaches different gosbel what have you got, may it be cursed. There is a warning and simple note that not all revelations are not from God. Let's take Jehovah witness for instance. They are 'good people' and they beliave in Bible aswell but they have Angel revelation what gave them a new teology and new book along whit the Bible, what really is in conflict whit the original christianity. Now they don't beliave Jesus is the Son of God rather Ark Angel Michaels incarnation and that's herecy and Jehovah witness is not part of christianity there for. My point is, if it's not based on the Bible, what God has given to us, we can get misleaded. What is the highest authority again?
____________
Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.
|
|
Neraus
Promising
Legendary Hero
Pain relief cream seller
|
|
posted November 28, 2015 05:41 PM |
|
|
You seem to think that rejecting Sola Scriptura means that one may supercede the Gospel or that you may deny what's in the Bible, but that's not what it entails, it means that simply knowing the Bible literally won't cut it, you won't know the full message, and as such you need expert interpreters, and so the bible itself won't bring you to salvation alone.
The Bible is still central but we are aided by tradition, theology and divine revelation, all doctrine is based within the Bible, and our knowledge on how to interpret is aided by tradition and theology, and, in exceptional cases, like the Immaculate Conception, like I said earlier, doctrine may be revealed through divine aid.
Or the concept of transubstantiation, we accept the doctrine of the Eucharist being the true body and blood of Christ also due to several miracles showing the divine nature of the rite and not only due to interpretation or reasonment.
Jehovah's witnesses on the other hand are wholly heretical and I have a problem in defining them as Christians.
____________
Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
|
|
Homer171
Promising
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted November 28, 2015 05:54 PM |
|
|
Sorry Neraus i misunderstand. I tough rejecting notion of Solo Scriptura means rejecting part of Scriptures (The Holy Bible). This is my native language so errors happen 
Jehovah witnesses is not part of christianity.
____________
Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.
|
|
fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted November 28, 2015 08:43 PM |
|
|
markkur said:
Accountable for actions? I don't know what Jesus you read, or if you read but because of Him, I am accountable for everything thing I think, let alone what I do. Doing is the easy part.
the point i was making, wasn't against religious people, but religion itself. people have faults, everyone knows that. people have egos, everyone knows that. and people have weaknesses or strengths that can be used against them; everyone knows that too. people are afraid of dying, and of the idea that this is the only life they have, and that once their loved ones die, they'll never be able to see each other again.
religion exploits all of that. it isn't a malicious thing, it's just a soothing blanket over reality. it soothes people, and allows them to feel calm about impending death, instead of making the most they can out of this mortal life of ours. it gives people a reason to fight one another(not that they need one). it strokes the ego, and tells people that they are special, and not only that, but above the other life on earth. that they are the "chosen people".
you use the phrase ""natural" central law behind human life", to describe christ's teachings. while i agree to a point that much of what christ taught is indeed a good thing, most of it is not practical in nature. it cannot really be applied in the human world, because of errors in human design(those faults we have). and while we're on the subject, another issue i have with religion(while this is contradictory to what i just said, bear with me) is that every one i have any knowledge of, claims that "natural" things are a sin. what you see in nature cannot be condemned as sin, just because a human being does it, and not an animal. making the natural world a moral enemy is a mistake. it seperates us further from nature.
nature is perfect in design; that is, everything in nature works together. the environments of the world work in harmony, because that is how they were designed to be. everything in nature fits(even parasites, as much as i despise them). what is religion, if not a divide from the natural world? the natural world is a delicate balance. and that balance is key, to continued existence on this planet. but religion tells us that nature is wrong, and to be condemned.
my point here is, that balance is important. religion would have people above nature, and that is wrong. we should be AS nature. religion forgets that animals love and have feelings too. religion never mentioned how the environments of the world work, because back when these religions were created, they didn't know that little things outside the nature of an environment can cause drastic changes. they didn't understand the impact of mankind on the planet.
religion demonizes natural things that are required in order to restore balance. religion isn't alone in this, because now there is law to back it up. which goes to my point earlier, that religion is outdated, and has been absorbed into law.
i'm not just painting the religious as selfish, because they're not alone. all human beings are selfish; but many try to fight against it. some fight against this by helping others, caring for others, etc. but selfishness is a flaw that everyone has to deal with. if i remember correctly, it is something that even monks have to overcome, on their path to enlightenment. so it's not like this is news, we all have that flaw, and we all have to fight it.
|
| |
|
|
This thread is pages long: 
