|
|
markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
|
posted January 30, 2017 04:38 PM |
|
|
frostysh
I read that post and all I can say is you have the world you foolishly want and will get what you did not expect but deserve. And you are heading fast to a non-utopia. If we do not get out from underneath The Machine Minds, some day soon, people just like you, will have a Robot that can destroy them and anyone else...keeping the Peace. And whoever, controls the Robots controls everything.
|
|
fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted January 30, 2017 09:26 PM |
|
|
i... want to be that robot.
|
|
markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
|
|
posted January 30, 2017 10:13 PM |
|
|
fred79 said:
i... want to be that robot.
No fred...trust me here...you are lousy Robot Material.
Your mind still functions even if a wee bit toward aggression. Better to imagine being the terminator instead of being the terminator. At least in the doom's day survival games you play...you get to VENT in your fashion.
|
|
frostysh
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
WHY?
|
|
posted January 31, 2017 01:50 AM |
|
Edited by frostysh at 02:04, 31 Jan 2017.
|
markkur said:
frostysh
I read that post and all I can say is you have the world you foolishly want and will get what you did not expect but deserve. And you are heading fast to a non-utopia. If we do not get out from underneath The Machine Minds, some day soon, people just like you, will have a Robot that can destroy them and anyone else...keeping the Peace. And whoever, controls the Robots controls everything.
mr markkur, usually religious like peoples shouting and trying "to rid off", from the frostysh presence in the real life, same as natio-, commie-, and other similar guys, but you trying to make a conversation with frostysh  . This is the almighty sacred Internet, but still - lot of laugh. from my life-experience, the conversation between the religious guys and frostysh can bring nothing good for a both sides, but, as you wish  .
Yes indeed, I am not a very bright and a smart person, but at least I am not trying to explain the things, that is , ahmm, is not so easy to be explained with a simple, religious-like explanations. 
1) Yes. The world, to be more preciously - the Earth civilization of the humans (very soon, will be Earth/Mars civilization...), this world is not a very good. Well, in the many places it is like a hell itself for a living beings.
2) The reasons of such poor situation, perhaps even more complicated than a situation itself. This is my explanation - the peoples through a history, have made a many bad choices.
3) What a solution to current situation? - Well I have no solutions. To be more preciously I see no real solutions.
But what about, solution from the religious peoples. In this case - the Christians, and particularly, mr markkur - the Christian. So I will try use my "machine-mind" to predict something about this solutions . . .
a) Trying to solve a global problems, such as military local-region conflicts, by inventing a "pact" with the all good and kindness humans. - 
So ahh, how do you want to implement such pact. Or do you think, you will stand as a tribune-prophet and shout "All good peoples (mostly Christians, this is obviously ) we must collaborate to stop those wars!" And ahh, the all peoples around the world we listen to you? .
Well, mr markkur, perhaps such stuff was more effective, a few thousands of years ago, when Christianity has been born, in the modern world, I think maximum that you will get - some likes a views on the youtube.video .
What do you think about that?
b) You mr markkur, trying to explain this frigging world, by warfare between good and evil (Well I am totally agree with you, in this case ). But about about the Lord, the God, The Christ? And the all stuff that is connected?
You see mr markkur, all those information, to be more preciously - a text and verbal information, about a Lord, a God, the Christ, you have obtain from a sources. What a kind of this sources was? Is this sources has been created by a God? - Yes of course But ahh. this sources has been ascribed by a humans many years ago . . .
And a humans, mr markkur, have some "features" - they can lie . They can create a myth, and believe into . The humans like to search a simple, the intuitive explanations for the things around, (and usually wrong -  ) Okay, the all stuff in this books is true, and those peoples were witnesses of the all of that miracles and angels.
But let us, for only one second, make an opposite conclusion - that all of that stories, nothing more than a myths. My machine mind can easily switch from this opposite explanation, to the other, and try to find a reason there. And your mind, mr marrkur, can your mind do same? .
c) You are talking about a "doomsday", degradation, lack of discipline, and stuff..
What can I say, mr markkur. I think the peoples that have "a doomsday" weapon, there is not so many countries that have such weapons, and I know for today - only two: US, and SU. I think this peoples will not build their decisions on believes to some Lord or a Paradise, or the Angels, etc.. . And yes, Science progress is moving further, and yes, in the future will be developed a much more powerful "toys", and so what? The peoples that will be able to create those thing, may be too powerful (I hope so  ), too wise (I pray about that ), and have a lot of a bloody experience (this is obviously) to really use such toys.
This is truly different from a guys that leading by a "weird" books, that have been scribed a thousands years ago, and who hell knows by whom and why , I am sorry...
As I said, you need to look "Fail Safe", 1964AD. There is some stuff about a Holy Bible, to be more preciously - the Old Testament
____________
|
|
markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
|
|
posted January 31, 2017 03:24 AM |
|
Edited by markkur at 03:25, 31 Jan 2017.
|
frostysh said:
So ahh, how do you want to implement such pact. Or do you think, you will stand as a tribune-prophet and shout "All good peoples (mostly Christians, this is obviously ) we must collaborate to stop those wars!" And ahh, the all peoples around the world we listen to you?
The idea has nothing to do with my Christianity in the way you suggest. How about people being made to see the sufferings of where WAR has been the last 10 years.
My statements are not about beating people over the head with my...get this...personal Faith. What I want does not figure into the conversation past...that a supposedly modern and advance society is not supposed to view human suffering as entertainment, or sighs at the distant horror between lattes.
frostysh said:
Well, mr markkur, perhaps such stuff was more effective, a few thousands of years ago, when Christianity has been born, in the modern world, I think maximum that you will get - some likes a views on the youtube.video .
What do you think about that?
I am not interested in click-fest-emotional-likes.
|
|
frostysh
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
WHY?
|
|
posted February 01, 2017 07:10 AM |
|
|
markkur said:
The idea has nothing to do with my Christianity in the way you suggest. How about people being made to see the sufferings of where WAR has been the last 10 years.
My statements are not about beating people over the head with my...get this...personal Faith. What I want does not figure into the conversation past...that a supposedly modern and advance society is not supposed to view human suffering as entertainment, or sighs at the distant horror between lattes.
I am not interested in click-fest-emotional-likes.
Mr markkur - the wars is real, the geopolitics is real. The suffering is real. But not anythings that is scriben on the paper is real, even if those something is 2k years old. . . .
Well, as the above picture posted by frostysh - it is only expression of events that appeared in the past, the expression that appeared in the mind of painter, nothing more. Perhaps this painter was right, perhaps not. But this is not a video-evidence or something like that...
And obviously, your metaphoric-philosophical solution for the global problems, is looks not a very real as fro myself. But perhaps I have read too much of mr phe, which is proclaiming even more .. not so real things .
____________
|
|
Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
|
|
posted February 02, 2017 06:49 PM |
|
Edited by Mytical at 18:55, 02 Feb 2017.
|
Religion itself is not bad.. in fact a lot of our history would have been lost if not for Monks who knew how to read and write, writing down things when the vast majority of people were illiterate. What corrupts religion is the people in it. Trying to force THEIR views on everybody else. Worse, what they try to force on other people makes no sense sometimes.
Let us take for instance nudity. We were born nude, are supposed to be in the image of god, yet some in religion see nudity as bad or immoral. What sense does that make? Not a bit. Some claim that marriage should be one way or another, but marriage existed before those religions .. so.. *shrugs* On one hand they claim to have a loving god, yet hate those who follow a different faith... sometimes going as far to kill them. I know some very intelligent people who are religious, and they make some good arguements.. but some .. I don't know.. if it doesn't fit their view it is ignored. That goes for atheist as well though. Or all humanity for that matter.
Here is something to digest. Just to think about. At one time we could not see cells, DNA, or chromosomes .. does that mean they did not exist until we could? Now absence of proof something does not exist is not the same as proof it does.. but just because we can not see the proof yet.. that doesn't mean there is not proof out there.. somewhere.
____________
Message received.
|
|
tSar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
|
|
posted February 02, 2017 07:39 PM |
|
|
But Mythy that has little to do with religion from a theoretical standpoint, religion as a concept and the function it serves does not revolve around the perception of nudity (that's a possbile value of the church that has emerged much like their tolerance for homosexuality from adapting to the people and their laws, so as much as the church would like to educate, they get their power from upholding the social structure by supporting laws).
____________
"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
|
|
AlHazin
Promising
Supreme Hero
النور
|
|
posted February 02, 2017 07:43 PM |
|
|
Mytical said:
Here is something to digest. Just to think about. At one time we could not see cells, DNA, or chromosomes .. does that mean they did not exist until we could? Now absence of proof something does not exist is not the same as proof it does.. but just because we can not see the proof yet.. that doesn't mean there is not proof out there.. somewhere.
You mean like, God?
____________
Nothing of value disappears from this world, it will reappear in some shape or form ^^ - Elvin
|
|
Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
|
|
posted February 02, 2017 07:54 PM |
|
|
AlHazin said:
Mytical said:
Here is something to digest. Just to think about. At one time we could not see cells, DNA, or chromosomes .. does that mean they did not exist until we could? Now absence of proof something does not exist is not the same as proof it does.. but just because we can not see the proof yet.. that doesn't mean there is not proof out there.. somewhere.
You mean like, God?
Yes. No. That there is something out there more 'evolved' then humans. That we are not the top of the food chain. That something exists that is greater by far, and may have existed before everything else did.. might have even made everything that exists. Perhaps even that this universe existed before, died heat death, and was reformed.
I don't know.. that is the thing. Its not something we can quantify, understand, or observe.. yet. That does not mean we will never be able to do so however.
____________
Message received.
|
|
AlHazin
Promising
Supreme Hero
النور
|
|
posted February 02, 2017 08:43 PM |
|
Edited by AlHazin at 20:44, 02 Feb 2017.
|
Scientifically, we humans always analyze a phenomenon, clearly positioned is space and time, according to a former one. So we always use a reference to the fact we are studying, and that reference is located before the one we study. According to that, I don't think we'll ever get to the first point, be it Big Bang or something, at least, not with science, because this is where science fails. That's where for example theology plays a role, mathematics, philosophy, metaphysics.
In our philosophy, what we don't know, we don't know it because we don't need or have to know it.
Quote:
Say He is God the unique, God the "withstander", He didn't engender and wasn't engendered, and He never had a similar any.
Chapter of the sincerity
This is the definition of God according to God.
When the prophet (SAAWS) was asked: Where was God before He created the universe?
He answered: He was in a blizzard, above which was air, below which was air. A subtly romantic way of saying: I don't know.
So there's probably a limit, that we can't reach in this realm with our means.
____________
Nothing of value disappears from this world, it will reappear in some shape or form ^^ - Elvin
|
|
markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
|
|
posted February 02, 2017 09:39 PM |
|
|
Mytical said:
Yes. No. That there is something out there more 'evolved' then humans. That we are not the top of the food chain. That something exists that is greater by far, and may have existed before everything else did.. might have even made everything that exists. Perhaps even that this universe existed before, died heat death, and was reformed.
I don't know.. that is the thing. Its not something we can quantify, understand, or observe.. yet. That does not mean we will never be able to do so however.
Well said Mytical. The door for us to walk through is still open.
For me the most troubling aspect regarding evidence of thinking by the "general" public I encounter, is what used to be called (very accurately) a type of self-righteousness, that used to be the domain of elitist churchmen. IDK, "maybe" due to the Internet and info, good and bad...at a fingertip? without any work or effort by the seeker? That is not discipline and we all should know about the "Disciplines" called higher-learning.
I am sure you and I see eye to eye about that single point because we have witnessed shallow-thinking inside and outside of the broader label of churchyness.
I not only have used Science in my past profession for decades but used the scientific method in improving our production process; I was very good at identifying all possible contributors to our problem-solving within the world of our manufacturing processes.
However, though I vigorously still believe in proper identification, accurate statistics, reason and logic in critical review, I think most dialogue today is far too often very arrogant and imo, does great damage to what I recognize as "the evolution of human-thought".
i.e. While we should be at a great height in thought, evidence seems quite divided, with some smattering of well-reasoned thinking but too frequently for comfort, there are many people at various sites I follow today, who appear have not been taught critical thinking or are so indoctrinated in an ideology that can not or will not get out of their own mental-box...so to speak, to even see what may be important for sound argument.
Everyone should know that if Science begins with an Agenda, then factual Science will be corrupted. For a time, I considered Global-warming - which I've since given-up pursuing the argument because at a quick-glance, I don't "always" see Science at work but instead I read or watch single-presentations that are <imvho> incomplete. i.e. All possible impacts are not included in the lecture or analysis. Maybe that was my bad luck or maybe someone has put all possibilities in a single-basket now but IDK.
Sorry, to my main-point now, I do not think that what has happened to all of our Institutions is an accident, I think it is simply the "natural" result of Mankind getting lost in itself and becoming corrupted in its ethics at minimum, morals in general and probably worse, sometimes, even the original purpose of whatever institution.
I first became aware of what I "think" is a universal malady inside today's world by waking-up and seeing what happened to something I hold dear..."my" greater one Church.
However, because I accepted the errors and responsibility (if we do not, who will?)for the serious injustices "my" Church-history, past and present and after being forced to deal with that mess, a universal reality affecting everything soon came onto my radar-screen.
What is the problem in Politics today? The Religions? Legal systems? Diplomacy? Banking and Finance? And even in Charity-groups? (Power and Greed strikes there too) Well, it's truly a no-brainer (though I didn't see the connection for a while) and my present opinion both reads and seems silly.  Human's are Humanity's most serious problem; always has been, always will be. However, how do we end that self-worship forever?
When any man or woman in any walk of life executing any world-view and working at any purpose is basically self-centered? We have exactly what we have in the world today.
I know "my" answer to that question but maybe for the purpose of trying to be more helpful in a small way; how about getting away entirely from these two default paradigms so prevalent today?
When things are going well, I'll not take a vacation on "ME".
And when things are going wrong, I'll not always target a "YOU".
|
|
fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted February 02, 2017 11:05 PM |
|
|
Mytical said:
Yes. No. That there is something out there more 'evolved' then humans. That we are not the top of the food chain. That something exists that is greater by far, and may have existed before everything else did.. might have even made everything that exists. Perhaps even that this universe existed before, died heat death, and was reformed.
I don't know.. that is the thing. Its not something we can quantify, understand, or observe.. yet. That does not mean we will never be able to do so however.
you could try meditating really hard, or you could try something else to attain your insight.
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted February 03, 2017 12:41 AM |
|
|
There may or may not be species out there more evolved than us, but they certainly have nothing to do with how we came into existence and how humans historically deduced "a higher existence" or how ethics or philosophy developed. The problem with this line of thinking is, unlike you wishfully assume, theology or spiritual theism or any plain mysticism in general, is not something deeper, it's NOT beyond the horizon of science. It's way behind it. We KNOW when and how monotheism emerged, we know the social-historical inspirations, we know its pre-monotheistic origins, we compare local myths, we know what's common in them and what's distinctive according to what and why. These are also science, science is not just physics.
And trying to understand how quantum physics treat "nothingness" is much more effort taking and much more sophisticated than some short-cut "God said let things be" explanation, which by the way, is an awful explanation because an entity with a personality coming into existence out of nowhere is abysmal compared to dimensions of space and time coming into existence out of nowhere. God does not have a "get out of jail free card" if "what started existence" is a question you have on your mind. Saying something exists without time and space is gibberish, it's not different than saying "this cube is not cubical." You can say it, but it doesn't correspond to anything, it's just a rhetorical gateway for people to justify a theistic perception they inherited because it made sense back in ancient times. And back then, what started it all was pretty much "street smart" thinking, not some deep philosophical journey: I have a will, I can move things, things also move in nature, so they either have their own will (animism) or -with a little more beginner level abstraction- they also have movers (polytheism). Than comes the age of empires and you have "a lord," the king of movers who rules all. Speaking through this tradition in 21th century with a sprinkle of mystification does not make theism deeper or open-minded "beyond science." There are still philosophers, of course, who tangle themselves in questions that are abstract and not exactly in the playing field of natural sciences, but the pioneers of modern philosophy today, are certainly not apologetics. And to put it bluntly, the ones who bring us new concepts, new perspectives, new paradigms only look down on apologetics, and justifiably so, because they are nothing more than a repackaged version of clergy. Do a quick search if you're not convinced by my words and look at what the philosophers of 20th Century and recent times spend their time on; structuralism, deconstructionism, critical theory, phenomenology, hermeneutics, social philosophy, theory of mind... And all of these are interlinked with social sciences like never before. Nobody is trying to decode God like Thomas Aquinas anymore. Faith in anything super-natural is insignificant in any intellectual field of work, it is treated as any other superstition.
|
|
fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted February 03, 2017 01:02 AM |
|
|
artu said:
There may or may not be species out there more evolved than us, but they certainly have nothing to do with how we came into existence
wrong, try again.
|
|
yogi
Promising
Famous Hero
of picnics
|
|
posted February 03, 2017 01:07 AM |
|
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted February 03, 2017 01:21 AM |
|
Edited by artu at 01:24, 03 Feb 2017.
|
fred79 said:
artu said:
There may or may not be species out there more evolved than us, but they certainly have nothing to do with how we came into existence
wrong, try again.
If you're trying to insert some sci-fi idea where aliens planted prokaryotic life on earth, well, nobody can say, they certainly didn't but there is also absolutely nothing that suggests they did. Abiogenesis is not dependent on aliens, and even in such a case, those aliens had to have evolved in their own habitat, too. So any abiogenesis theory eventually has to come up with an explanation that excludes interference of outsiders when it comes to the origin of life in the universe. And that would be something within the frame of NASA's definition of life: "A self-sustaining chemical system capable of Darwinian evolution."
yogi said:
does the body control the mind, or does the mind control the body?
The mind is the body.
|
|
yogi
Promising
Famous Hero
of picnics
|
|
posted February 03, 2017 01:34 AM |
|
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted February 03, 2017 01:43 AM |
|
|
How on earth did you conclude that from what I said?
Btw, a lot of our brain activity is indeed involuntary. Free will is not an absolute concept.
|
|
yogi
Promising
Famous Hero
of picnics
|
|
posted February 03, 2017 02:04 AM |
|
|
i asked which aspect of being is in control, the body or the mind, to which you replied, that the mind is a subset of the body, diverting the question of control
the amount of our brain activity that is involuntary is a matter of choice / self-control.
let me simplify this, can 'you' alter the body?
|
| |
|
|
This thread is pages long: 
