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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 27, 2017 09:14 AM |
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His point is that church leaders are hell-bent on destroying the church - and I say to that, so what. It's a rotten apple for a long time and SHOULD self-destruct.
I also think, that markkur has a way of quoting doubtful sources, and his bold print isn't what happened (priest not dismissed, but resigned in order to be able to say what he wanted to say).
Churches were never about belief or faith, but about power - the high priests of A.D. are no different from the high priests of B.C.
Anything else?
@ Salamandre
Your usual bias.
There is no limitation period on murder. No matter how long ago murder happened, it's always prosecuted. If there is someone to prosecute, that is.
And as usual you have no idea about my opinion. I have no sympathy whatsoever for Islam - but Islam is no wolf in sheep's clothes as Christian belief is. Christian SOUNDS fine - but they stab you in the back. Islam? Well, it's OBVIOUS that it's misanthropic and especially misogynic. There isn't anything to discuss about that mess called a religion because everything is clear.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 27, 2017 09:35 AM |
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JollyJoker said:
His point is that church leaders are hell-bent on destroying the church
There's more to it than your oversimplification to reach your overarching point. He's already summarized it.
markkur said:
The point should have been easily stark. The entire reason for that Church was usurped and it was done under the banner of the olive-branch of an "Inter-Faith function". What happened was 1-Faith, was highly "shielded" (for some bizarre reason) while the very foundation of a old Western Religion was dismissed. And this Duplicity is happening all over the West today.
This is why I'm not inclined to participate in such conversations. There's always someone with crude views and melting pot arguments.
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted January 27, 2017 09:42 AM |
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JollyJoker said:
There is no limitation period on murder. No matter how long ago murder happened, it's always prosecuted. If there is someone to prosecute, that is.
Thats not true, most countries have a ~25-30 years statute on murder prosecution.
What about what consists the cement of our European culture and spirituality, geniuses directly nurtured from Christianity, as Bach, Handel, Mozart, Raphael, Giorgione, Michelangelo, the list could go for hundred of pages. But how would you know, those are levels ahead from your Metallica aspirin.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 27, 2017 09:46 AM |
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Salamandre said:
those are levels ahead from your Metallica aspirin.
hey, let's not go dragging metallica into this... metallica did nothing wrong here... 
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 27, 2017 10:02 AM |
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Salamandre said:
Thats not true, most countries have a ~25-30 years statute on murder prosecution.
What about what consists the cement of our European culture and spirituality, geniuses directly nurtured from Christianity, as Bach, Handel, Mozart, Raphael, Giorgione, Michelangelo, the list could go for hundred of pages. But how would you know, those are levels ahead from your Metallica aspirin.
Very much this. Was attending at a conference and the speaker, Vishal Mangalwadi, gave us a brief synopsis on just how much of an impact Christianity had throughout the millennia. The west and the modern world in general is very much shaped in its concepts. Being an Indian, he also pointed out that the cultural and social progress his country has made in the last centuries was also under the tutelage of core Christian doctrine.
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 27, 2017 10:14 AM |
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Salamandre said:
JollyJoker said:
There is no limitation period on murder. No matter how long ago murder happened, it's always prosecuted. If there is someone to prosecute, that is.
Thats not true, most countries have a ~25-30 years statute on murder prosecution.
Not in the case of genocide (or "war crimes", systematical crimes against humanity) - which is what we are talking about here.
Quote:
What about what consists the cement of our European culture and spirituality, geniuses directly nurtured from Christianity, as Bach, Handel, Mozart, Raphael, Giorgione, Michelangelo, the list could go for hundred of pages. But how would you know, those are levels ahead from your Metallica aspirin.
Well, then, light a candle for everyone on that list and say a prayer. The guy's name is Händel, by the way.
And as usual you don't understand the difference between ideology and organisation, that is, the difference between, say, communism, and the communist party - or in this case the difference between the religious theory and the body of the church.
It is one thing to believe in a certain idea - ideology - or at least vital parts of it, but the ADMINISTRATION of said ideology, that is, the entity that claims to "enact", "spread" and "protect" it from erring and falsehoods, is quite another.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 27, 2017 10:19 AM |
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Edited by Stevie at 10:23, 27 Jan 2017.
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Define body of the church.
And how is an ideology "administered", what does that even mean? How can an organization patronize a concept to administer it? You do realize that the teachings of Christianity are something to ABIDE to, not something that is owned by the Catholic Church or Orthodox Church or the KKK or whoever, right?
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 27, 2017 11:27 AM |
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Edited by artu at 16:14, 27 Jan 2017.
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Salamandre said:
What about what consists the cement of our European culture and spirituality, geniuses directly nurtured from Christianity, as Bach, Handel, Mozart, Raphael, Giorgione, Michelangelo, the list could go for hundred of pages. But how would you know, those are levels ahead from your Metallica aspirin.
That is a very different topic.
They are not exactly nurtured "directly" from Christianity but from specific conditions that also involved Christianity. Religions were embedded in everything in the past involving culture and in cases like Renaissance or Classical Music, lots of artists were devoting their work to their faith, yes, but it was not the Church which had created Renaissance or Western Classical music, had it been, they wouldn't be so distinctively periodic or regional (when it comes to music, think of the enormous gap between, say, Vienna and even a metropolis such as London.) Christianity is much older and its area of influence is much wider, nowhere else we see similar results. So, this is really not much different than saying Islam is responsible for Fuzuli or Sinan (who are just as universal) or with a more modern example, communism is responsible for Charlie Chaplin, Pablo Neruda, Pablo Picasso who were all self-claimed communists, at least at some point in their lives. Artists are inevitably influenced by their surroundings and zeitgeist but it is not the zeitgeist which makes some people more talented than others. Zeitgeist can cause creativity to flourish above a normal level and zeitgeist had involved religious elements historically, but in most cases, zeitgeist determined how the religion was going to transform, not the other way around and that's why something as concentrated as the Renaissance for instance, can be observed as a tsunami of creativity that came and went, leaving behind an impact of transformation.
Stevie said:
You do realize that the teachings of Christianity are something to ABIDE to, not something that is owned by the Catholic Church or Orthodox Church or the KKK or whoever, right?
What is specific in the relationship between the Church and Christianity are concepts such as trinity, the original sin, the Bible itself. These concepts are canon and dogma to almost all Christians because of the Church. (Except a few sects of minor influence that are mostly considered heretic after Rome or considered revivalist or anachronic today). Such dogmas were all implemented as a doctrine by the Roman Church since 4th century and through a selection of texts edited by THEM, not Christ. The historical Christ's teachings or even existence is a matter of debate among scholars, following his time of death, just as it happens to any tradition which spreads out orally, his story and teachings got modified and synthesized with other local beliefs, there were many "versions" of Christianity which held onto totally different, even contradictory assumptions. It was after the institutionalization of the Roman Church that you had a "universal" Bible, a book that people (the clergy at first of course) had a consensus on. With minor editions afterwards, the Bible and the theology did continue to change with historical impacts, but the level of change was nowhere near as ontological as debating "if there was a trinity" or "was Jesus the son or the messenger" which had all been heated, live arguments among believers before the Church put an end to them.
Markkur said:
I am sick to death of the West, it's leaders and it's sold-out Media stomping on Christian rights while supporting everyone and I mean everyone esle's...
But when I ask you, as a faithful Christian living in the U.S., which of your rights can't you practice, you can't seem to come up with something that is directly oppressive. On the contrary, U.S. is a country with some very powerful Christian lobbies and political influence, usually, they are the ones pushing the boundaries of separation of the Church and the State. For instance, you don't see Hindus demanding reincarnation should be thought in biology curriculum, do you. The reason there is more objection towards Christian groups in the U.S. is because they are the ones who are the mainstream conservative force in the country, not because they are the oppressed ones. Don't get me wrong, I don't think the priest did anything wrong in this particular example, (that is the U.K. anyway), however, jumping to your already arrived conclusion that the Christians are the ones being silenced in your country from such an example is not accurate.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 27, 2017 11:41 AM |
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Stevie, please. The "teachings" of ANY ideology are not self-evident, considering that they have to be taught. The printing press has been invented in the 15th century. (Public) Education is a fairly new concept. The ability to read as something fairly new to the masses of the people - still, Africa is a continent with high rate of illiteracy even today.
So historically people depend on other people TELLING them stuff.
Any kind of active "spreading" of an idea, religion or else, needs people telling other people the whats and whys and hows. And in earlier times people needed PRACTICAL stuff, that is, daily life stuff. You'd spread ideas by telling people what to do in specific situations, how to behave in this and that case and so on.
All this needs ORGANISING. People who do the spreading (and would be educated in what they are supposed to spread). And after the spreading it needs ADMINISTERING and ADMINISTRATION. Holding masses, celebrating the rites; collecting the dole; forgiving of sins.
In short, God's (Christ's) representatives - or deputies - who spread the word of god and, well, advise people in all things spiritual.
In earlier times people wouldn't even get the idea that the teachings, the pure ideas behind a religion, and the "church" (the organisation just described) might not be in harmony with each other - that's why Luther's reformation and subsequent split was such a big deal. The (non-Anglican) reformation is the REACTION on acknowledging that the "church" was a criminal organisation that did NOT follow its own ideology (anymore - as if it ever had).
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Baronus
Legendary Hero
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posted January 27, 2017 03:55 PM |
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Edited by Baronus at 15:56, 27 Jan 2017.
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90% people maybe in fact live worst than animals. Sex, drugs and rcknroll. No depth in his life. Animals are only animals without depth in life. So if we tell about peple we should tell rather about 10% people with depth in his life. The same in religion. Yes if we tell about science we should tell about Einstein. He is idea of scientist. The same saints in religion. Science is good and religion is bigger good. But both of it we have criminals and beasts like islamists. It doesnt mean if scientist is perverted, science is bad.
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tSar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted January 27, 2017 06:54 PM |
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To die for your faith is the easiest and most significant form of expression. It terrifies us to know that there are those in the enemy ranks that are so devoted to their faith, our object should not be the eradication of Islam but to learn to stand strong side by side as rivals and honoured friends. That's what 300 years of Ottoman occupation taught us, our faith and culture was strong and we could proudly stand as equals.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 27, 2017 07:06 PM |
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Wonderful tsar, that's what the world needs, more fanatics who's only "virtue" is to die for something, not to mention the superficial anaysis of the current world politics as some dualistic religious war. That's so reading things in reverse, I wonder if you're just messin' around.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted January 27, 2017 08:25 PM |
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Edited by markkur at 20:29, 27 Jan 2017.
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artu said:
But when I ask you, as a faithful Christian living in the U.S., which of your rights can't you practice, you can't seem to come up with something that is directly oppressive. On the contrary, U.S. is a country with some very powerful Christian lobbies and political influence, usually, they are the ones pushing the boundaries of separation of the Church and the State. For instance, you don't see Hindus demanding reincarnation should be thought in biology curriculum, do you. The reason there is more objection towards Christian groups in the U.S. is because they are the ones who are the mainstream conservative force in the country, not because they are the oppressed ones.
I will answer you this one time Artu. I mean that in no arrogant way, it's just that I have ALWAYS faced two debating-foes on that topic, Atheists and Christians at the very same time. I don't expect you to understand Artu, you believe in yourself alone, so you seldom slow down to see my points...much like JJ has this last time with my entire reason for my last post.
My Faith changed my life and in an incredible way. People say Faith is worthless today and I say that is arrogantly foolish. Just because one person cannot understand something does not mean that another cannot. Simply said, I not only understood Christ but adore his message. If you think Miracles do not happen, consider that minds can be born-again overnight. That is what happened to me and it was wonderful. In short, one evening I did not know how to love and before I went to bed...I had a blueprint.
You must accept the above because it was my personal experience. None of that is up for debate.
Now let me give you a concrete example of discrimination. I've met them all my life and have been verbally abused and mocked more times than I can count but I will focus on one glaring example of my public chastisement. Remember, I had a hateful Atheist Father and everyone else was also "doing their own thing". "If it feels good...do it".
At the time of this incident, I was pretty much a housebound "Elder" that had been on a three year Sabbatical. I lived alone and was nearly alone in the new State where I lived at that time because of Medical reasons.
I kept seeing Ads, about the NEED for Big Brothers & Sisters in this State. I have always held a belief more akin to Mother Teresa about a person's purpose as a member in the ONE CHURCH, only minus the Pope and all the fanfare.
However, I KNEW it was a STATE-CONTROLLED ORG. but decided I MUST try to help. Now, understand once I am onboard I will spend money out of my own pockets because this service is not about being compensated but actually requires my SHARING of my resources if I have any to spare. I did at the time and would have helped one young MAN at least, as I have done many times. Important point here - only under the greater umbrella of the Church have I ever been allowed.
I contacted Big Brothers & Big Sisters and a brief conversation began.
Me: I've seen your Ads saying you are in desperate need of VOLUNTEERS because of having so many kids taken off the streets? (I had worked alone (helped not preached) on inner-city streets several times before)
Rep: Yes we are very short of staff.
I answered every question asked and the conversation flowed well. The female on the other end of the phone was pleasant, even laughing and the long story is I was on my way to sign up.
However, a reality within my own changed life struck me; What if I met a young man much like I had been? iow If I met a younger ME...on the streets...could I FULLY be the MAN I am now in trying to help someone off the ground? Could I share what changed my life?
She was about to give me directions when I interrupted her and said;
Me: I have one question I need to ask. If I have tried about anything to help someone and see a need where the problem is inside, am I allowed to mention Christ as a possibility? I emphasize that because I've never been a Crusading-Zealot. "The Spirit goes where it will".
I have never been its master.
There was a very long silence before a very changed voice replied;
Rep: I'm sorry but that is NOT ALLOWED.
You see Artu...I had to be stripped of the central heart of me. My Faith was banned from any conversation between myself and those I would attempt to help.
I will make a minor jump and I hope and think you will hang on. "You cannot serve God & Money"
I see the error of the State (in this case) Because it was a MONEY organization banning Faith, <imo> my most potent weapons are and were Love and Hope and believing in something greater than myself. Visualizing the road ahead, if you will, and helping this person with any resources I had to make a new start. Had it been a teenager? How about getting him off the streets and under a very nice roof and sharing everything I owned with him, teaching him the ARTs, MUSIC and the importance of SERVING OTHERS etc.
That is one example and it covers others.
However, how am I today about the USA and it's different peoples and ideas of what life is?
Just like the 50% of woman that do not believe in Aborting their babies are not represented by the recent <ahem> "Women's March" I am not represented anywhere. Because, don't forget, all I have been saying about an ill, misguided Christian-church; I have always focused on that and the madness that is now underway. i.e. the Legions of "Name-it Claim-it" preachers duping greedy masses that look for a Santa-Claus type gain, where all they had to do was wake-up and look under the tree, no effort...just a present. However, they cannot "wake-up" until they choose to serve something other than themselves.
I would absolutely thrive if we could actually have ONE "Christian-State" out of 50! to live in. Where Pornography is NOT (at least) in the Public Sphere in any way, shape or form. Where sex is not the eternal God of society.
Where if I "by habit" say God Bless You, it can actually be understood as a very nice thing to say without a truckload of BS waiting behind it.
Where the taxes taken from me do not support, Terror, War, Corruption, Drug-Addictions of all kinds or supporting lazy self-centered people that want to sit on their assess all day, every day playing games and demanding everything from those who work, while doing nothing, for even those that depend on THEM.
One last thing, about the <ahem> Morale-Majority. Trump is making sure he pleases that MOB with his heavy use of Church-Rhetoric. Do you honestly think that means a damn thing to this Christian? If you do, then I have utterly failed in every thing I have shared with you for years now. Or, you have not been listening.
The "Way" of Christ is long winding road of Spiritual Maturity. It is "spiritual-wounds" accepted even from those you would lay down your life...on your brow, your hands, your feet and most importantly smack! in the center in your one and only heart.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 27, 2017 09:08 PM |
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Edited by artu at 21:10, 27 Jan 2017.
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I don't mean this in an arrogant way either but you seem to be mixing apples and oranges here. So the problem is not me believing only in myself but rather a perception of false asymmetries here. Let's go step by step:
1- An organization that lets people take care of children in need may have a policy of not allowing them to indoctrinate the children with their own religion. That would make sense in many ways since, a) thats how cults work and recruit b) it may cause pressure on the kid if he's from a different background c) such a thing's content can be controlled with private schools to a degree but not on an individual level, so the indoctrination can be a radicalizing one.
If same policy applies to any religion, I see no double standard here and I doubt the person on the phone would reply any differently to a Muslim or a Scientologist.
2- There are pro-life protests and demonstrations in the U.S. all the time, the reason they are not called something such as "women's march" is because abortion is about a woman's control over her own body, pro-choice people don't intervene in pro-life women's life choices and any Christian is free NOT TO abort because of her personal faith, even if she is pregnant with her 15th child. So, this is just a perfect example of what I mentioned earlier, it is not the non-religious party that is interfering in other people's choices, it is the religious party and then they ironically victimize themselves over with a rhetoric of "how about anti-abortionist women, aren't they women too?" Well, da, nobody's forcing them to abort. Btw, your new president just stopped funding international aid programs with policy involving abortions which means a lot of unnurtured children will be born in third world countries into starvation, disease and poverty.
3- Pornography is not something they shove down your throat forcefully. Actual pornography, I mean. Although much easier to reach after the internet if you SEARCH for it, mainstream broadcasting doesn't do porn. However, if you are significantly sensitive about this and have a larger definition of "pornographic" and you even get disturbed by shampoo commercials because a woman makes "orgasm sounds" in the shower, I'm sure you can pick yourself one of the zillion Evangelical networks in the U.S. to watch, I'm sure they pick their commercials according to their target base.
One last thing, This may be true or not, I'm just pulling a "what if" here but have you ever considered that your "journey" may have a lot to do with a subconscious reaction to your "hateful atheist father." Because, unlike what you think, I listen to things you say and you bring him up A LOT. And although not a miracle, kids going the opposite direction of their parents if they think they were wronged by them is quite a common psychological phenomenon. 
Stay in peace, dear friend.
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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frostysh
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
WHY?
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posted January 27, 2017 09:16 PM |
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artu -
artu said:
The internet is a mess for the last few days here and I have not watched the video, however if the summary above is accurate, to my understanding, this occasion was supposed to be a gesture of good will between the two communities. So, I think it is a very jerkish and idiotic move by the Muslim preacher to pick the verses he did among all the ones he could from the Quran, especially if he was invited. He could have easily gone with:
Is they took another moves?  Whahaha... I am joking.
artu said:
It is not a secret that Muslims believe that Christ is the prophet of God but not the son of "him" and if I put aside the context, I think it's beyond absurd to even consider debating if somebody is "the son of god" or nephew or whatever. However, if you believe your own prophet got on a winged horse and went up to the sky to visit Allah, you certainly lose the privilage to criticize such things and shouldn't be throwing stones from your glass house.
I am particularly agreed +1. Just do nto forgot, that Islam today - it is a Christianity of few hundred years ago. or I remembered that all this madness with marriage and stuff persist in some Europe countries till 18-19th century? .
markkur -
markkur said:
Earlier it was pointed out as some sort of Golden Truth that the Priest Quit but what the hell? He was forced to either become some other freakin' creature and shut his mouth or...as he had and chose to do to hold a shred of self-respect...he had to walk away. And frankly I think he will soon understand it was the best thing he ever did to leave that misguided and mislead institution, that was never meant to be in its present form.
Mr markkur, what a problem? If someone idiot trying to replace your Christian truth, with his Muslim lie , inside your sacred place - the Church. Just politely drag-and-drop him/her away  And then you have a topic for talk with your friends, for a long time, this will make you and your friend closer, and you will know better each other - this is a psychological stuff 
If you want to act, like those ISIS-guys % Co: to cut a legs and arms because of the single bad word into the side of HIM . Not a problem - just be sure that police will not expose you and your friends . You will bring Christianity then, to the level of neo-nazies, and red-radicals. The good company you will have in that "underground"
I have no doubts, that Christianity in that case, will have a bright future and will be a powerful part of the society. .
JollyJoker -
JollyJoker said:
So. What?
You are outraged about the behavior of the muslim and his choice of text? You are aoutraged about the behavior of the church in reaction to it?
Is it really new to you that churches and members of churches, especially those two in question, have done outrageous, criminal and daft things over the last millennium (and a couple of centuries more)? I haven't got a iota of respect for THEM - and frankly, I don't respect faith when it rears its head PUBLICLY. On an individual level, faith is something I do respect a lot: as something personal that may fuel something, whatever that something is. Everyone is entitled to believe whatever they want.
+1, particularly agreed.
But who is Albert Schweitzers, nevermind, I will look at almighty Wikipedia .
Salamandre -
Salamandre said:
Religions (almost all) evolved and adapted to the moving world, which also gives a picture of the character of peoples following them
Yeah, same as well-oriented ideologies. There is almost no diferences between .
Salamandre said:
Also try to go in any Muslim country, at the mosque, then claim Allah didn't exist, you will find yourself either lynched in the second or in prison 2 minutes later. If you can't comprehend this decisive difference between religions . .
+1, but do not forgot, that Christianity was the same a few centuries ago, for the single word against HIM , the particular person can be easily harmed or in the little bit worst case - executed as a heretic or a WIZARD/WITCH!
Stevie
Stevie said:
. . .Vishal Mangalwadi . . .
I know a song, of a rap-singer VISHAL. From the" Aqua Teen Hunger Force" tv-series, and it is ICE .
JollyJoker -
JollyJoker said:
Stevie, please. The "teachings" of ANY ideology are not self-evident, considering that they have to be taught. The printing press has been invented in the 15th century. (Public) Education is a fairly new concept. The ability to read as something fairly new to the masses of the people - still, Africa is a continent with high rate of illiteracy even today.
So historically people depend on other people TELLING them stuff.
Any kind of active "spreading" of an idea, religion or else, needs people telling other people the whats and whys and hows. And in earlier times people needed PRACTICAL stuff, that is, daily life stuff. You'd spread ideas by telling people what to do in specific situations, how to behave in this and that case and so on.
All this needs ORGANISING. People who do the spreading (and would be educated in what they are supposed to spread). And after the spreading it needs ADMINISTERING and ADMINISTRATION
Almost fully agreed +1, yep this guy is know about some drill from the ideology-stuff . <imo> Indeed, the history of mankind confirming such stuff, and indeed all this "straight" ideologies, that appeared through history. is basically the same. IMHO.
Baronus -
Baronus said:
90% people maybe in fact live worst than animals. Sex, drugs and rcknroll. No depth in his life. Animals are only animals without depth in life. So if we tell about peple we should tell rather about 10% people with depth in his life. The same in religion. Yes if we tell about science we should tell about Einstein. He is idea of scientist. The same saints in religion. Science is good and religion is bigger good. But both of it we have criminals and beasts like islamists. It doesnt mean if scientist is perverted, science is bad.
You just have not seen the animals for too close .
Science = Religion : Muhha! A poor living beings! Tremble before the mighty prophets! Mendel, Vavilov, Schrodinger, Einstein and others! Your mortal sins shall perish in their footsteps... You must lay on the ground and preach the Gods! The holy equations and almighty constants!! Doomsday is coming! The all heretics will face the horrific fate! The will read the Landau' stuff, and the other books till eternity will end Doomsday is coming my brothers and sisters! So let us again to remember Holy-Maxwell-Equations of doom! MUahahhawhahhaa! Muwhahhahha! .
artu -
artu said:
Wonderful tsar, that's what the world needs, more fanatics who's only "virtue" is to die for something, not to mention the superficial anaysis of the current world politics as some dualistic religious war. That's so reading things in reverse, I wonder if you're just messin' around.
+1 As I said before, the religious, and the ideology-guys, only a poor pawns on the War.  . There was always like that, the history of mankind is a confirmation. <imo>
____________
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted January 27, 2017 11:00 PM |
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artu said:
One last thing, This may be true or not, I'm just pulling a "what if" here but have you ever considered that your "journey" may have a lot to do with a subconscious reaction to your "hateful atheist father." Because, unlike what you think, I listen to things you say and you bring him up A LOT. And although not a miracle, kids going the opposite direction of their parents if they think they were wronged by them is quite a common psychological phenomenon.
Stay in peace, dear friend.
Doctor Artu,"
A lot"? Goodness...yes I have mentioned it before but review this thread and tally your "A lot".
And your post may have been a step by step for you but it in itself makes apples and oranges of what I shared. This is why I hesitated to explain even one example...we are apples and oranges Artu.
As far as the Father-connection...your guess is not without minor merit but it is only a very small part. I was a rebel, and still am, in a sense, because I will not accept much of what is accepted today. I suppose I have, like you, arrived at my place as we type, by reasoning, logic and far more important by the results of my Faith.
I will not continue further since you must see all of life thorough the lens of a test-tube. I agree with that method to some degree but I think the better part of my life will not fit under the lens of Modernity. Frankly, I have no wish for it. Freedom for anyone, is to choose their "own World-view" and clearly ours are very different.
My being free to help another soul in my own way, with my own time and resources...you believe must be cut-out from a Nation because of your Ideology and the rule of Separation of Church & State but I will never accept that. What you call indoctrination, as if you are not brimming with it...is what I call Love. If someone near me is Spiritually drowning, if they will accept it, I will throw them my life-line and become very focused on earthly-issues that have nothing to do with my intent. I live in freedom and protect freedom.
Understand...being me is not a matter of STATE. Just like being me is not a matter of what passes for Church today. So I am cut both ways.
I knew it would be nigh impossible for me to help you to see my long predicament. But you cannot now say I did not try. Although, were you an insider?, I think you are the kind of person that I would not have needed to try. 
Blessings your way...whatever good you can make of that.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 27, 2017 11:39 PM |
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Edited by artu at 23:40, 27 Jan 2017.
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markkur said:
I will not continue further since you must see all of life thorough the lens of a test-tube. I agree with that method to some degree but I think the better part of my life will not fit under the lens of Modernity. Frankly, I have no wish for it. Freedom for anyone, is to choose their "own World-view."
It's a common misconception of religious people to assume ones who don't believe in the super-natural are all Mr. Spock but that's really not how it works. And ironically, the policy of the big brother/sister programme you mention that does not allow religious interference is probably basing that policy on the exact same principle, that the kids should pick their own world view. I'm aware that you are not talking about grasping the kid with a trembling shake on the shoulder and start preaching "come to the light lost one, come to the light," what you meant was casual conversation, not indoctrination. However, here's the thing, if you had exactly done that, I mean, brought up Jesus casually as a personal experience which helped you in your life, I wouldn't assume suddenly cop sirens would tear the conversation apart and you'd be charged or anything like that. When you ask on the phone to a social worker "Can I bring in Jesus" though, it probably sounded like you were some kind of weirdo.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted January 28, 2017 12:51 AM |
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Edited by markkur at 05:09, 28 Jan 2017.
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artu said:
I'm aware that you are not talking about grasping the kid with a trembling shake on the shoulder and start preaching "come to the light lost one, come to the light," what you meant was casual conversation, not indoctrination. However, here's the thing, if you had exactly done that, I mean, brought up Jesus casually as a personal experience which helped you in your life, I wouldn't assume suddenly cop sirens would tear the conversation apart and you'd be charged or anything like that. When you ask on the phone to a social worker "Can I bring in Jesus" though, it probably sounded like you were some kind of weirdo.
Thank God  You "partially" nailed-it about my experience. And I agree, with what you said there but revisit my desire of what I was willing to give and share.
What I did not add about my experience, is that I well knew the Heretic-playing-field, in this case reversed and explained to her what I meant, as I did you. However, "I" was banned by black and white rules without further interview etc. No one pursued me a single step to understand what experience I brought to the table and consequently neither could they learn my service would not be paid for by Taxpayers...and yet youngsters were in freakin' trouble!
Further, about "weirdo". What I find sadly Ironic, is you and others have always said, as you just did "How powerful the Christian (fill-in-the-blank here> is here in the States. Hogwash, it is just another term, like Liberal, Conservative, Right, Left and ying-yang label (old ones have been corrupted here and new ones are being conjured all the time) and ALL are populated by cookie-cutter "weirdo's" seeking the power of any banner they choose for salvation = A purpose for their lives.
For the record; Do I have the right to mention that Christ's-message was good medicine for me? and that you might investigate for yourself? to someone that I take off the streets, when a State-Agency is utterly failing to take care of the youth of our inner cities?
I continually hear that "my brand of kindness" is some vile form of Indoctrination and may I ask what is not today in Society?
You see Artu I was "judged and sentenced to confinement" and at a time when there was great need near me and also a time when I needed that outlet of service when I had none of my own at hand to utilize. Rest right there for a second or two and soak that last line up.
I could have swallowed that stupid stuff but I could not deconstruct Me to please THEM and meet the requirements of any State or Organization, to exercise my common Humanity. Artu, I am not fake in any sort of way - I personally detest evading Truth for any purpose and towards a non-person-organization based on laws and rules targeting basic human-needs especially.
What I cherish and believe is true for everyone of us is, when possible, all God's creatures should be CARING for each other. You've understood me thus far...I know you can embrace the following;
It should not matter if I am me and in a good way I want to help others. Do you suppose for a minute that I have only helped others that Chant Markkur or Shout Jeeeeaaaasussssss!? I have bought bus-tickets several times for young men strung out on the streets to get them back home where they had at least one person that gave a damn about them and yet knew full well that it was highly likely I was just being used because I had not ploughed another person's soul as if I were Gabriel and just met the persons immediate needs. Love, in all forms, is a gift and it must be given away withOUT conditions or strings or it is not Love.
One last thing...had I have ignored myself and remained mute, what if I did suggest reading Christ and that later became an issue because a God-hater wanted to intervene and spare the young-man of my terrible Faith? Who would likely have been damaged? The one I was helping. The young person "could" have been made a battlefield by the State. Of course, with that clear and present danger to a young man's soul...I would have just walked away and left him my phone-number for a later time if he needed me and not an Institution.
<Curve ahead>
I just read a study that I find both interesting and troubling. One of the chief reasons young people in the West today are embracing Islam is?
Discipline. My country is full of cry-babies that expect to snap their fingers and the world is made to "their" order.
Notice, Artu that I did not say...surprising.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted January 28, 2017 05:08 AM |
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Edited by markkur at 05:11, 28 Jan 2017.
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e'Nuff of my personal life. Here's a meaty topic for serious thinking.
This is a topic that has been on my mind for years now and watching an old program I have on DVD brought it forward in time once more.
By the Sword
Listening a few weeks back to a discussion about the destruction of Western Culture, a comment was made by a non-Christian “What I cannot accept the most about Christianity is the idea of ‘turning the other cheek’ while our Culture and Society are destroyed”.
Please, forget Western Culture, I want to focus on “his quote” because I have heard that sensible argument all my life. In fact, I years ago, wrestled with that very problem and like most people, whether behind Faith or not, I put it on the shelf. Sometimes, when cornered I had to admit; “Let anyone attack my wife and children and there are no tenets powerful enough to keep me tamed” As a matter of fact, tame was not my natural disposition.
However, behind the subject of WAR...the problem will forever persist.
Before getting to my point I need to highlight something dreadful about, not ancient times but NOW.
What I see as absolutely critical in both day to day life and the future of Humanity is “The Evolution of the Mind”. Again, we cannot stray down that road, for this discussion because this opinion is focused on one thing...The Sword.
People here have, say, once or twice a year, asked some general question regarding the “progress of the human-race.”
Let’s follow that question and zoom-in on WAR and what that meant and what it has become. People treasure statistics but for my purpose numbers are not needed because I am targeting something near and dear to my heart and likely most of yours...Ethics.
It would be nice to not discuss WAR in 2017 at all...wouldn’t it? Do not we all want Peace around the Globe? Well, I’ll be bold and say...most of us.
Go back far enough in time and we had annihilation of tribes during wars. I’m not saying that warfare ever became Noble but for a brief span of time it evolved a little more into a form of a more honorable contest between combatants. An example in history is opposing armies meeting outside of cities and few civilians being killed in battles.
However, that Ethic was a baby and was killed before it became adolescent.
At the end of the American Civil War, after many such battles as I described above, Sherman made his March to the Sea and took the war to southern civilians.
WWI’s Total-War “progressed” to kill Millions of civilians around the world.
WWII “further progressed” by TECH-fueled polices of Total-War, killing, i.e. 40 Million civilians in Russia alone, with Millions more in other countries across the globe.
Today, Buttons can be pushed and “half a Hemisphere” can be swept clear of all Human-Life.
So...can we do anything to stop this historically growing madness and eliminate the danger that a Curtis LeMay inside ANY nation (he wanted Cuba destroyed during the “Cuban Missile Crisis”) poses to the world today?
<imvho> One of the greatest mistakes possibly made about Christ and his “turn the other cheek” is the total lack of understanding the time, location and purpose of his statement.
Christ is Lord of the Spiritual World and never was the President of an earthly Nation-State. Turning the other cheek was simply to resist aggression by not embracing it in the day to day life of living with your neighbors.
However, that error became, along with others to follow and bringing the same message from other sources, implanted a crisis in ethics today. Of course War is not Ethical in most people minds but as Robert McNamera asked “What makes a person that kills thousands of civilians a War-criminal if he loses but not if he wins?” That is a stark, recent historical reality.
I fully realize I, nor anyone else here, can solve the terrible picture I have painted but what if each one of us, no matter the Nation, no matter race, creed or Politics could collectively make a Pact?
But let’s look at something that does relate to WAR.
“Those that live ‘by the Sword’ die by the Sword”.
What did Christ mean by this? I think it should have been clear a long time ago.
“Living by the Sword” must necessarily entail Aggression. Mercenaries (Standing Armies) may know a great deal about defending a patch-of-ground but is that actually what they seek today when Nations clash? Just like ol’ General Sherman and his ruthless march on villages and towns, defeating the enemy’s forces in foreign fields is still the ideal today. It is called preemptive...correct? Strike before Struck.
However, defending your family from those same Mercenaries and any force of invasion? I think it safe to say most of us would think something quite deranged about ourselves if we would not fight to the death to keep our loved ones from being tortured, killed and raped.
I have no answers but I am struggling to find a universal solution in a world of so many beliefs.
So, what if each one of us made a universal Human-pact around the Globe to only defend our homes? How might that unfold? Could collective Humanity dictate what Nations do around the earth?
In short, as has been asked before, what if they gave a war and nobody came? And I’ll add to that…
to fight somewhere else?
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"Do your own research"
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frostysh
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
WHY?
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posted January 30, 2017 02:32 AM |
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Edited by frostysh at 03:00, 30 Jan 2017.
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markkur -
I don't think that such wiring the religion stuff (regardless of what kind of religion it is, for an exception of the Gods of War religion whahha ) and the war, it is a good idea...
OF course this stuff were connected through a centuries, and even in present days. But the war and the religion nowadays it is a trully different thing.
In short - the war is a very materialistic. The religion is a very idealistic (for an exception of beliefs in the Gods of War lot of laugh ... ).
markkur said:
“What I cannot accept the most about Christianity is the idea of ‘turning the other cheek’ while our Culture and Society are destroyed”.
I think nobody cares about such nonsense in the wars, and even more, through a centuries, nobody cared. The Christians were not an exception from that list.
But I always thought that, Resurrection and other stuff from the Holy Bible is more unacceptable for the common humans, than this philosophical things, like "a cheeks". 
markkur said:
I fully realize I, nor anyone else here, can solve the terrible picture I have painted but what if each one of us, no matter the Nation, no matter race, creed or Politics could collectively make a Pact?
Nope, it is one of the utopias.
markkur said:
So...can we do anything to stop this historically growing madness and eliminate the danger that a Curtis LeMay inside ANY nation (he wanted Cuba destroyed during the “Cuban Missile Crisis”) poses to the world today?
We are still alive, and have no tentacles - this is the confirmation of effective work of the guys that "have a buttons" . I think the humans with such power, cannot be biased by any of the religious, or the religious like stuff. The end of story.
markkur said:
Christ is Lord of the Spiritual World and never was the President of an earthly Nation-State
And ahh, do you have clues about that? Perhaps mr Christ is a Secretary of somekind . Who hell knows.
Please, do not accept that as a trolling, and do not call the admin to ban a poor frostysh , in this way I just expressed my doubts about.. with no disrespect to you, or to mr Christ .
markkur said:
“What makes a person that kills thousands of civilians a War-criminal if he loses but not if he wins?”
Yes. But "we make", does not changing the very reality, only the expression of the large masses of the peoples.
markkur said:
“Living by the Sword” must necessarily entail Aggression. Mercenaries (Standing Armies) may know a great deal about defending a patch-of-ground but is that actually what they seek today when Nations clash? Just like ol’ General Sherman and his ruthless march on villages and towns, defeating the enemy’s forces in foreign fields is still the ideal today. It is called preemptive...correct? Strike before Struck.
Nonsense it is.
This is called - a war. If you will not attack, when it necessary, your country will die, is this simple enough? Modern toys (weapons), technologies, and stuff, will not let for your country a second chance... Well I know a good movie about that - "Fail Safe" 1964AD .
markkur said:
So, what if each one of us made a universal Human-pact around the Globe to only defend our homes? How might that unfold? Could collective Humanity dictate what Nations do around the earth?
As the collective insanity and utopia? Perhaps. But not on the Earth.
markkur said:
In short, as has been asked before, what if they gave a war and nobody came? And I’ll add to that…
to fight somewhere else?
Then, the country will be destabilized, turned into a chaos, cracked and squashed by another, more powerful country, where "came". .
And as you can see, in the modern world, the Nations is better to use in terms of "patriot citizens" but not as genetically-cultural stuff, because in that case, the total effectiveness of the state is lowered.
If you search for a confirmations of that, well, through a history, nation-guys always failed before commie-guys, because they were not so effective (this is not means that the commie-guys is better, or more good, or more kind, they just more effective. - <imo> ).
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This thread is pages long: 
