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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 12, 2016 08:57 AM |
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Usually people asking such questions come with a gotcha attitude, so I must say that I really appreciate the inquisitive tone and I believe the brothers above answered quite nicely. Personally I didn't know about the translation error Markkur highlighted, thanks for that bit.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted November 12, 2016 04:18 PM |
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Stevie said:
Personally I didn't know about the translation error Markkur highlighted, thanks for that bit.
TY Stevie but I must confess I didn't. I just pointed out that any time anyone is reading a translation of any document it is a good habit to investigate with the tools we have available today. (I have a scholarly-committees' Greek N.T. for reference and accuracy) Anything taken from one Language to another is obvious but we also have to consider the "Age" in which the document was written and how the meaning of words can change. i.e. My kids grew up "Hating" which meant "they didn't like something" = "I hate green-beans" or that they did not want to do something = "I hate to go to school". Their case was of course...I want things my way.
In this case no text was controversial to me, or appeared out of place but there has been a few others in the past that I've discovered that had fairly serious errors and even a few possibly intentionally chosen. i.e. for obscurity or support for some intent.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted January 26, 2017 09:44 PM |
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Surely I can get some brothers & sisters here to see why we need to defend each other no matter what we believe?
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Folks remember my writing "my article" in this very thread about Christ vs The Modern <Christian> Church? And Hopefully also...that I pointed "my" finger of scorn directly at the leadership of the Church?
Related: Maybe a few might remember when I began to explain in a later thread, stopping when I realized - I would not be believed, nor what I said even...accepted, about the BS censorship going on in the West and the degradation of my Christian Faith?...and was met by a shared rigid-bias by a few unconvinced but "usually" reasonable minds?
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What this link reveals is an Intentional-Bomb dropped inside the Anglican-Church and the atrocious end-result. What happened is a important matter that you should care about, as I care deeply that NO Religion of any type is forced on YOU.
FYI, It is a huge seed of misguided destruction, planted by weak-minded and dictatorial masters, who do not even understand what they claim to believe and certainly are not going to upset the Golden-Calf that provides them the life of a glorious-parasite strutting in Golden-Halls amid inherited lift-styles, for all the world to see. "Inner-closet" my backside!
Priest out/dismissed after objecting to Muslim prayer in church
UK
Please be real and type nothing without listening first. Do NOT assume what the prayer was. Listen & Read...or you willingly shut down simple Reason.
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I don't know which angers me most, the fact that Muslim leaders were ignored in their "understanding the stance of this one Priest" or the fact that the "powers-that-are" that were given the responsibility, are nothing better than "wolves in sheep's clothing" hell-bent on the total destruction of the Church...while they PLAY Church. Dammit! "Blind-Guides" indeed. Probably the latter makes me the most war-like. The former runs a close-second though, because imposing anything in the NAME of some other group, when they sought no such thing? ----Well, at least so the <clears throat> fair & balanced Media reports. Which, may be telling truth, this time, but it cannot be auto-trusted anymore, by anyone without diligence on the part of all listeners.
On to the huge stinking pile of Dung. Imagine this happening ANYWHERE but in reverse and maybe a new picture will finally come into view.
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Btw, about WAR, I will post a Christian response to modern-war and an "idea" for a way out for all of us around the Globe no matter what we believe.
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"Do your own research"
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tSar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted January 26, 2017 10:20 PM |
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Disregard for now i will edit the whole thing just had to put some thoughts down. This post is still in alpha and subject to revision once i watch the vide (don't have sufficient mobile data)
I can't help but reply even with my limited means (phone). The church is a special place of routine for Christians it's a place to enhance and to develop and to affirm/reaffirm, whie I have a deep love for the Muslim faith a muslim prayer in a Christian church is a force of disruption, that is not the place for it.
As for religious war i did a lot of research on this pope Gregory was an extremely prudent pope, the crusades were never meant to be a conquest but that of defence, peace and power in Europe. Once i get açcess to a computer I will elaborate further, but how Gregory and his successors chose to implement the Peace of God was a marvellous strategy that historians fail to grasp the true scope of the renewed church of the 11th century.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 26, 2017 10:37 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 23:51, 26 Jan 2017.
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The entire scenario is a comedy of the absurd. A Muslim is invited in a "Christian" church to read from the Koran on a special occasion. He selects a verse that denies Jesus as the Son of God, knowing what that meant. The priest defends his faith which is not only an imperative as a Christian, but also a legal right. He gets sanctioned and loses his job. I have to admit, this is even stupider than forcing pastors to officiate gay marriages.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 26, 2017 11:45 PM |
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Just a SLIGHT correction.
The priest RESIGNED. He wasn't dismissed. HE found it unbearable that a muslim read the part of the koran that says that Christ shouldn't be worshipped.
Now - what did he expect a muslim to say? He's a muslim for a reason.
And by the way. The church is a criminal organization that should be prosecuted, because murder is a crime that doesn't lapse. Same is true for all religious institutions. Muslim, Christian, whatever.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 27, 2017 12:15 AM |
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Quote:
“After a conversation instigated by officials at Buckingham Palace, I decided the most honourable course of action was to resign,” Reverend Ashenden wrote.
“I have held the position for the last nine years. But over the last few years people who objected to my defending the Christian faith in public wrote to both Lambeth Palace and Buckingham Palace to try to get the association ended.
“When I was confronted with these attempts to silence or defenestrate me, my reaction was to ask ‘in what way is a priest defending the faith on behalf of a monarch who was Defender of the Faith, incongruous or improper?’
“I have come to see that the situation is more complex than that.”…
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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frostysh
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
WHY?
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posted January 27, 2017 01:08 AM |
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Edited by frostysh at 01:19, 27 Jan 2017.
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Mr markkur -
You are paying too much of attantion and emotions to such pathetic incident in the ocean of the everyday madness of the human civilization events.
It is looks like a , not a religious beginnings of your reaction, but a pure-psychological stuff. You are living in your country, I remembered that you said something about US, in the Earth with ~8,5 billions of the humans. And you are one of them.
And you looks at yourtubes.video stuff, and starting a very predictable reaction about something that located hell amount of miles from you. . . And the hell, I have doubts that this event somehow will make the direct influence on your life. For an exception, about your reaction on the video, of course  .
It is looks like you are bored of your everyday life, mr markkur, and just want to be a "part of something great" . Which is common desire, but this can play a bad joke in some cases... The history of human civilization is a confirmation about that. <imo>.
Still, I not denying any beliefs of humans, especially if humans believe and aware about they believe only because they want, because of their choice, and not making a proofs for their beliefs .
I am from that category of peoples, I believe in the thing that I cannot prove or disapprove in the any possible way - the justice and allgoodness  .
Well about a war. Just remember, that religious peoples along with the "straight-no-doubtsideologically-ones" was always a poor pawns on the wars...  In My Humble Opinion.
tSar-Ivor -
tSar-Ivor said:
. . . the crusades were never meant to be a conquest but that of defence, peace and power in Europe . .
And you are sure about that? Because the same speaking the officials from Vatican, and their historians. But as for myself.. , I usually trying to check something, before to accept it as a true, with no disrespect of course .
Well for an example, why this protectors of Christians use their enemies as food - . Siege of Ma'arra? And it is looks like a for the religious reason this delicious species were
Also there is a lot of examples of a massacres . . . And the other stuff.
But yeah, probably I may agreed with you, mr tSar-Ivor, that no conquest were. Because of so pathetic results . The arabs were in the many conflicts, including vs mongols and their blitzkrieg war machine, and the crusaders with their hundred of thousands peoples of the any kind (poor dirty peoples and braindamaged religious fanatics + cannibals including, it seems so) managed to conquer only
 Quote:
Route of the First Crusade through Asia - Wikipedia: Crusade
 Quote:
The Near East in 1135, with the Crusader states marked with red crosses - Wikipedia: Crusader States
Comparing to their colleges, mongols.
 Quote:
Expansion of the Mongol Empire 1206–1294. - Wikipedia: Mongol Empire
A thin red line comparing to the ~ one fifth of the ground surface of the Earth *facepalm* . Indeed Christians (I have nothing Christians, just an example and facts) sux hard before Renaissance in terms of conquests.
But the huge irony in the things, that Renaissance actually was little "jump off" from the religious dogmas in the every sphere of the life, The military included Whahaha... What the irony indeed.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted January 27, 2017 01:15 AM |
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JJ you are evading the reason for my post and purposely it is "seems", since you are no dummy.
So just in case your rage carried you well past listening to the content of that "unifying Muslim prayer"...please chill and pay close attention...
In a Mass (((I am a Christian and do not believe in Denominations))) based entirely on "Christ as the Son of God" and his gift to the Church...the chosen-Koran-text was the point blank disavowal of his status under God and the complete dismissal of the entire reason for the existence of the Christian Faith and the ground for which the prayer was uttered.
Do not tell me that if a large group of Atheist Women got together to celebrate whatever the hell floats their boat and once assembled for whatever "their" special purpose, some MAN rose and stated the Women are misguided to even consider to gather under such an error.
JJ I do like you and often appreciate what you have to say but in this instance you just had an major-fail of fair-reason. You appear to NOT be interested 1 iota in protecting what I believe as I am in protecting what you believe. Please learn to respect a sincere practicing Christian,(not the same as acceptance you know)and not lump all of us in the same boat, no matter the historical-age. As far as the Sins of the (general) Christian Church, you are not nearly as invested as I am with the necessary and important criticisms (for we, inside the Church must take ownership of past and present corruption) and once again, that post should have made that very clear.
The point should have been easily stark. The entire reason for that Church was usurped and it was done under the banner of the olive-branch of an "Inter-Faith function". What happened was 1-Faith, was highly "shielded" (for some bizarre reason) while the very foundation of a old Western Religion was dismissed. And this Duplicity is happening all over the West today.
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted January 27, 2017 01:25 AM |
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Please move on frostysh, unless, you can begin making short, concise posts to an opinion or two of what you believe, without painting the world as you see it. Though, in this thread Christianity IS and I am interested in explaining or critiquing it and not like in every other thread in the place...defending it once again. I generally don't even bother in any other thread @HC.
This thread is the one place where a Christian can explain or defend Christianity and it is NOT your stage to pull yet another Tidal-wave-post. I mean this kindly but you really need to take a step outside of yourself and learn how to connect to all the other minds here without overrunning anyone's interest to reach common-ground.
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frostysh
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
WHY?
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posted January 27, 2017 01:41 AM |
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Edited by frostysh at 01:43, 27 Jan 2017.
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markkur said:
Please move on frostysh, unless, you can begin making short, concise posts to an opinion or two of what you believe, without painting the world as you see it. Though, in this thread Christianity IS and I am interested in explaining or critiquing it and not like in every other thread in the place...defending it once again. I generally don't even bother in any other thread @HC.
This thread is the one place where a Christian can explain or defend Christianity and it is NOT your stage to pull yet another Tidal-wave-post. I mean this kindly but you really need to take a step outside of yourself and learn how to connect to all the other minds here without overrunning anyone's interest to reach common-ground.
Well, I though I explained my feelings about that video, after your name, colored in blue, and your mr markkur, reaction to that video. This is not a "defense", this a common, and a very-well predictable reaction - "just a new topic to talk with a friends in the internet-cafe". As I said, it is a truly psychological stuff. The event depicted on the video, will do zero harm to the Christianity. Like the from beginning of the Christianity and the Islam - this two religions was in something similar, in something different. And always will be a peoples that will act like that guy, from a video, from a both sides.
Through a history, were billions of such events, and will be. The only difference to the above mentioned event, that you, mr markkur were not aware about such events through youtube-video
About the pictures - well if somebody saying that Crusader was a defense, in this thread, I have a natural question - Why that was so? So why I cannot use the historical data from the wikipedia to ask such question in this thread?
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted January 27, 2017 01:56 AM |
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Edited by markkur at 02:00, 27 Jan 2017.
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frostysh said:
The event depicted on the video, will do zero harm to the Christianity.
Rethink that single line...please.
Until you realize your error. we really can have no common ground on equal-terms as human-beings.
frostysh said:
About the pictures - well if somebody saying that Crusader was a defense, in this thread, I have a natural question - Why that was so? So why I cannot use the historical data from the wikipedia to ask such question in this thread?
I accept that explanation, but with reservation, because you do not need charts and graphs etc. to converse with me. But since you were also talking with tsar, I indeed was a wee bit rough on you.My apology_ However, <imo> you still need to understand your posts about everything are pretty much the same barrage making casual conversation nigh impossible.
Listen to what I am explaining about communication...or not of course. But I mean it absolutely in good motive behind a sincere message to help you...and by not deciding to ignore your posts like many have felt they have had to do. Take the hint and then we can have a chance to better know each other...granting you would need the desire.
Edit = Bold
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"Do your own research"
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frostysh
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
WHY?
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posted January 27, 2017 02:24 AM |
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Edited by frostysh at 02:28, 27 Jan 2017.
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markkur said:
frostysh said:
The event depicted on the video, will do zero harm to the Christianity.
Rethink that single line...please.
Until you realize your error. we really can have no common ground on equal-terms as human-beings.
Through a history of Jewish_stuff/China_folk_stuff/Christianity/Islam/. Christians were slaughtered by Roman-Empire-guys, Communism-guys, Muslims by Christians guys, this Jewish guys (I do nto know ho proper to call their religion - Judaism perhaps) slaughtered by Egypt-guys, Roman-guys, Christian-guys, then Nazi-guys (many of which were Christians ). China-religion guys were slaughtered by Communism guys, etc, etc and So what 
Christianity is alive, Islam is alive, China-folk religion stuff is alive, this Jewish crazy stuff (I have no disrespect, I just so exited) is alive too. And you are trying to expose a single, common event of the religion-religion conflict (the examples of which were billions through history, I have no doubts, but I have doubts that many of them were exposed through youtube  ) as a danger to the entire Christianity beliefs itself ... Are you frigging kidding me mr markkur... What a poor beliefs Christians have, that tremble before such "danger" Whahhaa..
Well nevermind, all is fine . May be you are right, and ahh, I think the defense and ahh, all this stuff must be, from such believer like you, mr markkur. So take my apologizing.
markkur said:
I accept that explanation, but with reservation, because you do not need charts and graphs etc. to converse with me. But since you were also talking with tsar, I indeed was a wee bit rough on you. However, <imo> you still need to understand your posts about everything are pretty much the same barrage making causal conversation nigh impossible.
Listen to what I am explaining about communication...or not of course. But I mean it absolutely in good motive behind a sincere message to help you...and by not deciding to ignore your posts like many have felt they have had to do. Take the hint and then we can have a chance to better know each other...granting you would need the desire.
Well I am truly trying to be well readable, and stuff. I will improve my grammar. But about another stuff. Well, what can I say mr markkur, I have some ... "problems" in my real life, because of my style of ..., my style of life. This is who I am. I cannot be changed so easily. As crazy russians saying "Gorbatogo mogeela ispraveet" which is means "To fix the bunchy (camelback) guy can only a grave".
And I have doubts that I want to know someone better.
But anyway, thanx for the advice.
P.S. Blast it! I need to kill a bird today, its sux.  .
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 27, 2017 02:30 AM |
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The internet is a mess for the last few days here and I have not watched the video, however if the summary above is accurate, to my understanding, this occasion was supposed to be a gesture of good will between the two communities. So, I think it is a very jerkish and idiotic move by the Muslim preacher to pick the verses he did among all the ones he could from the Quran, especially if he was invited. He could have easily gone with:
And do not argue/dispute with The Book's people (Jews and Christians) except with which it is best , except those who were unjust/oppressive from them, and say: "We believed with what was descended on (to) us, and was descended to you, and our God, and your God (is) one, and we are to Him Moslems/submitters ."
It is not a secret that Muslims believe that Christ is the prophet of God but not the son of "him" and if I put aside the context, I think it's beyond absurd to even consider debating if somebody is "the son of god" or nephew or whatever. However, if you believe your own prophet got on a winged horse and went up to the sky to visit Allah, you certainly lose the privilage to criticize such things and shouldn't be throwing stones from your glass house.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted January 27, 2017 07:24 AM |
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Edited by markkur at 07:25, 27 Jan 2017.
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artu said:
The internet is a mess for the last few days here and I have not watched the video, however if the summary above is accurate, to my understanding, this occasion was supposed to be a gesture of good will between the two communities. So, I think it is a very jerkish and idiotic move by the Muslim preacher to pick the verses he did among all the ones he could from the Quran, especially if he was invited. He could have easily gone with:
And do not argue/dispute with The Book's people (Jews and Christians) except with which it is best , except those who were unjust/oppressive from them, and say: "We believed with what was descended on (to) us, and was descended to you, and our God, and your God (is) one, and we are to Him Moslems/submitters ."
It is not a secret that Muslims believe that Christ is the prophet of God but not the son of "him" and if I put aside the context, I think it's beyond absurd to even consider debating if somebody is "the son of god" or nephew or whatever. However, if you believe your own prophet got on a winged horse and went up to the sky to visit Allah, you certainly lose the privilage to criticize such things and shouldn't be throwing stones from your glass house.
Well Artu, my ire was not even directed at Islam. As I pointed out, according to the report, it was 1 person that decided to derail that "outreach", the travesty began after, when a Priest insisted what happened was terribly done and offensive and (in my words) nothing at all like a move to human-unity. I don't expect you living in Turkey to agree with me because I doubt not seeing what I am pissed about happening all around you, will exactly help you see how damned serious this crap has become. I am sick to death of the West, it's leaders and it's sold-out Media stomping on Christian rights while supporting everyone and I mean everyone esle's...that's it. And what was my target?...once again the Church! Hell at the source of the true story...how messed-up is that? But by God, let a pampered "STAR" have an idiotic arrogant bold statement to make and all the stinking cameras are rolling baby! It's a growing sickness it seems.
Trust me I want to see compassion when it concerns any person's personal beliefs and I emphasize it because Christ DID. I do not want anyone thumped by anyone's bible or "whatever else fills that bill in this world today". NOT ONE PERSON.
Earlier it was pointed out as some sort of Golden Truth that the Priest Quit but what the hell? He was forced to either become some other freakin' creature and shut his mouth or...as he had and chose to do to hold a shred of self-respect...he had to walk away. And frankly I think he will soon understand it was the best thing he ever did to leave that misguided and mislead institution, that was never meant to be in its present form.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 27, 2017 08:16 AM |
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Markkur, I didn't watch the video - I looked up the newspaper articles in the serious publications.
And what happened is that after the incident the priest resigned in order to be able to rail against what happened; he wasn't agreeing with how his principals commented and reacted on the incident.
That is what happened.
So. What?
You are outraged about the behavior of the muslim and his choice of text? You are aoutraged about the behavior of the church in reaction to it?
Is it really new to you that churches and members of churches, especially those two in question, have done outrageous, criminal and daft things over the last millennium (and a couple of centuries more)? I haven't got a iota of respect for THEM - and frankly, I don't respect faith when it rears its head PUBLICLY. On an individual level, faith is something I do respect a lot: as something personal that may fuel something, whatever that something is. Everyone is entitled to believe whatever they want.
But as thoughts are free, they also don't count. It's the ACTIONS that count, and once "faith" spurs people to DO things, to start spreading their faith in order "to make the world a more likable place for God", my respect vanishes into thin air.
Churches? The problem with communism was, they tried to banish RELIGION. They should have just dissolved all religious ORGANIZATIONS and left it at that.
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Baronus
Legendary Hero
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posted January 27, 2017 08:17 AM |
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If someone want to know true he must use precise language. If you tell ,,christians" you tell about who? To be christian is enough to tell ,,Im christian"? If I tell Im master of english language its enough? No. I really must be master. Its the same with religion. Christian must be christian. But a lot of people live in hipocrisy. They tell, dont do. So dont give us examples those hipocrits as christians because in fact they dont be christians. Really christians are saints. Eg. saint Francis from him is actually pope.
St. Francis
And people like he are base to discusion about.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 27, 2017 08:21 AM |
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In that case you don't need religion at all because when we talk about "humans" we should just talk about the Einsteins and Albert Schweitzers. The rest are no humans, but just animals.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 27, 2017 08:52 AM |
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Edited by Stevie at 08:54, 27 Jan 2017.
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JollyJoker said:
You are outraged about the behavior of the muslim and his choice of text? You are aoutraged about the behavior of the church in reaction to it?
Is it really new to you that churches and members of churches, especially those two in question, have done outrageous, criminal and daft things over the last millennium (and a couple of centuries more)?
Is that how you go on a tangent to derail from the point? If Markkur wanted to talk about anything else than the event in question, do you believe he wouldn't have opened the subject with that? Or do you really want to profess your hatred so much that you just have to get into the criminal things that the church did in the past millennium?
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted January 27, 2017 09:13 AM |
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Religions (almost all) evolved and adapted to the moving world, which also gives a picture of the character of peoples following them. If we were to put aside the lists of murders from today, carried in the name of Islam, then Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism and whatever, Jolly Joker will be very embarrassed, unless -as usual, he just plays deaf and blind when Islam is criticized.
Also try to go in any Muslim country, at the mosque, then claim Allah didn't exist, you will find yourself either lynched in the second or in prison 2 minutes later. If you can't comprehend this decisive difference between religions, then only your ignorance is bigger than your mouth.
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