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Drakon-Deus
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posted November 04, 2019 02:54 AM |
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@Blizzardboy
Regarding the Pope, that is where Orthodox and Catholics separate. As for me, I believe that as long as the current pope does the work he is supposed to do and shows great devotion, I recognise and respect him.
I agree with the rest of your post.
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Blizzardboy
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posted November 04, 2019 03:31 AM |
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Well, to be fair, there were occasions where the Pope or his representatives did a very scandalous job at their role and that is partly why there are Catholics and Orthodox to begin with. I don't think that way about any of the Popes of the 20th century but it wasn't always that way.
But yeah, I definitely believe in the need for a Papacy even though Catholics and Orthodox are almost identical and they both have the sacraments. Maybe that's not the point of the thread though. I just bumped in a few pages ago.
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JollyJoker
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posted November 04, 2019 07:39 AM |
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Blizzardboy said:
The Bishop of Rome was granted singular, divinely protected authority to keep people from serious error.
Hahaha, sure, god needs the help of a man to make sure the understanding of their godly words is error-free.
As I said, I expect a certain standard from an entity to worship. That one is falling short a tad.
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Neraus
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posted November 04, 2019 08:39 AM |
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Friggin' Popes man. Actually I should say friggin' French, but that's the problem with representatives they can muck things up. The patriarchs definitely had their own faults, like not being able to lead their subordinates well, but there are far too many examples of the Pope's behaviour being the source of needless division.
It's unforgivable what the Popes from the XII-XV century did, by bowing down to the French they single-handedly caused the decline of the HRE, the fall of Sicily and Constantinople, ruined any chances of reconciliation, and heavily contributed to the loss of authority and the schism in Northern Europe.
It shouldn't be ever forgotten that the Paleologians came to our doorstep multiple times to attempt reconciliation, and the Pope's response always meant humiliation and total submission, so that the Eastern clergy couldn't ever accept union, heck, the very moment Michael VIII retook Constantinople from the Latins he attempted reunion, he was excommunicated some years later for not accepting the pro-French politics of the Pope.
And that's as somebody who recognises the supreme authority of the Pope.
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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JollyJoker
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posted November 04, 2019 09:13 AM |
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It's God's fault. Holy Spirit on the office didn't work, obviously.
Ah, wait, I forgot, the devil had a hand or two and somehow corrupted the weak humans, so that the Holy Spirit didn't work as intended.
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Neraus
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posted November 04, 2019 10:15 AM |
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Or more accurately, the Holy Spirit said something and the Cardinals decided for themselves.
Simply put, during a conclave (although at the time there was no conclave) the cardinals pray, ask for illumination, and then vote whatever the hell they want because there is no magical indication falling from the sky.
And then you get those that wouldn't even vote for the Holy Spirit's candidate anyway because they were paid off by the French.
So yes the devil had an hand in it, a devil called France.
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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JollyJoker
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posted November 04, 2019 10:35 AM |
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You mean, France was stronger than the Holy Spirit?
That would be kind of sobering, wouldn't it?
And it's a pretty crappy way to make sure God's representative on Earth would actually keep to their job description.
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Neraus
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posted November 04, 2019 11:27 AM |
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If you want to look at it that way sure, I mean, it would be kind of out of character for God to send us a written note with the best candidate's name. Well, if that happens then the cardinals are big dicks ignoring the will of God, it's all behind closed doors, they could be plotting to overthrow the Big Man in Charge!
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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Drakon-Deus
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posted November 04, 2019 12:40 PM |
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I would say that God does not contradict Himself. He lets us, namely, the people who receive the word, have a choice. And man is capable of great evil in this fallen state.
I know that does not solve your question about the Bible JJ, but that's what I believe about the problem that Neraus is addressing.
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Blizzardboy
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posted November 04, 2019 12:56 PM |
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Nah, things worked out. The Papacy has never officially taught against doctrine before, not even from Popes who kept mistresses and ran the office like a business mogul. The example of the bad Popes actually strengthens and reinforces the point rather than weakens it.
Moving the Papacy to Avignon did damage which is why it eventually went back to the Vatican. The Bishop of Rome is the seat of teaching authority but the area hasn't always had much temporal power behind it. There were similar problems near the end of the Roman Empire. The western empire had declined for various reasons - getting sacked and whatnot - and the eastern half remained pretty rich and powerful, which led to some people in Alexandria or Constantinople wondering why they had to listen to a guy from an inferior state. France was the most prominent Catholic state during the Avignon years and they had a lot of sway.
These days a lot of the retiring European cardinals are being replaced with Asians or Africans or from the Americas, so there is a wider distributions of voices. In the past the influence sometimes became so lopsided that it led to turmoil.
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JollyJoker
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posted November 04, 2019 03:33 PM |
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Papal infallability is considered valid only in extremely rare cases - when the Pope DECIDES to speak ex cathedra - in all other cases, including preaching and teaching the Pope is considered fallible and will confess, too.
However, that concept is officially only 150 years old, when something like a more careful take on things was discussed and concluded.
It's also a HINDSIGHT definition, obviously devised in a way to make sure the behavior and technings of the Popes before that would not fall back and bite them.
The question has been discussed earlier, though, and much more absolute. In earlier times the idea of Papal infallibility was a lot broader and more general.
The Church tried to cover their collective behinds here, not more.
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Blizzardboy
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posted November 04, 2019 04:14 PM |
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Nah, I think it mostly happened because of the aftermath of the 1st Vatican Council IIRC and the discussion among the bishops. Like most other major events, it was an internal affair. As a general rule the Church doesn't try too hard to impress outsiders. They literally allow entire nations and empires to break away from them before conceding on a doctrinal issue. Doctrine becomes more clarified over time as civilization develops and becomes more complex.
Catholics have never understood the Pope to be a literal God-figure. Even in the 1st century writings you have incidences like when Paul criticized Peter because of the way he was treating the Gentile converts, and Peter ended up being the one to change his behavior. Merging Jews with Greeks and Romans and other ethnic groups was one of the big challenges in the 1st/2nd centuries, and then by the 4th century one of the big challenges was Arianism, etc. When the Catholic Church encounters certain problems it is forced to clarify itself, which is something that continues to happen in the present day.
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Neraus
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posted November 04, 2019 04:47 PM |
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Papal infallibility as a concept was around since the first centuries together with the concept of the centrality of Rome, even in writings of the 3rd century the latter idea was discussed and considered "valid", although at the time Episcopal autonomy was at its highest point, so Papal authority was more nominal than in later times.
The Church is the slowest institution to adopt novel ideas, consider that certain central doctrines were accepted or made into dogmas only in the latter half of the second millennium. For example the Immaculate Conception was made into dogma just in the XIX century, despite being object of theological debate since much earlier and one of the biggest points of contention between Franciscans and Jesuits for example.
Most of the time it's because it isn't deemed necessary to set in stone something, unless controversies arise, of course. For example the Virgin Mary was officially given the title Mother of God in the V century just because there was a controversy with the Nestorians.
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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JollyJoker
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posted November 04, 2019 06:49 PM |
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Yes. And blizzardboy has to study the issue some more.
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Blizzardboy
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posted November 04, 2019 07:12 PM |
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JollyJoker
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posted November 04, 2019 07:26 PM |
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Maybe you have to study even more than I thought. I yessed Neraus' post which is definitely not agreeing with you.
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blizzardboy
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posted November 04, 2019 11:35 PM |
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No JJ, I'm pretty sure he wasn't talking to me.
Or if he was it was a simple misunderstanding. My point with the Peter & Paul example is that a Pope can still make mistakes or sin. Peter "outranked" Paul, but Paul was right and Peter was wrong. This is still in harmony with a Pope's ability to speak ex cathedra.
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JollyJoker
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posted November 05, 2019 07:58 AM |
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This is all beside the point. We are talking about the word of god here, and it doesn't matter what some bishops decided upon 1870 and how things were handled before that (differently, not the way you say - papal infallability as a concept was around way longer, even infallability of the church in general). Because everyone can SAY, "the Pope is rigt when it comes to interpretations of the word of god".
That's the same thing medicine men said thousands of years ago: THEY communicate with the gods (and so everyone must listen to them).
However. You know 1 John 2.4: "Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person."
And that is surely true for a lot of representatives of God, pope, bishop or priest; there have been many liars among them, still are, apparently, and that is certainly one reason why a large part of what is called "Christianity" doesn't accept the pope or the Catholic way. You know, it's a majority of the CHRISTIANS who defy the pope and the catholic interpretation of the Bible.
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artu
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posted November 05, 2019 08:29 AM |
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Yeah, pretty basic stuff. But the minute I realized “that’s why you have the Pope, so we will always interpret the word of God correctly” wasnt a joke, and that took me a while, I gave up. Either we are being trolled real good or some very very heavy brick fell on head of blizz we used to know.
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Drakon-Deus
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Qapla'
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posted November 05, 2019 08:33 AM |
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I on the other hand am glad to welcome Blizz into the group. There are few of us left on HC anyway.
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This thread is pages long: 
