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JollyJoker
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posted November 05, 2019 11:35 AM |
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I suppose he is bored and trolling around - wouldn't be the first time.
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Neraus
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posted November 05, 2019 11:54 AM |
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Or he fell off a horse and got enlightened, wouldn't be the first time.
About the Papal infallibility, ironically enough it can be circumvented if a special commission finds the Pope guilty of heresy, deposing him and thus making his teachings null.
And that's something that could have happened today against the current Pope, since he sometimes does get a bit too close to certain things...
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artu
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posted November 05, 2019 12:29 PM |
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Neraus said:
Or he fell off a horse and got enlightened, wouldn't be the first time.
I guess, that’s a reference to Paul the Apostle. Come to think of it, head injury would indeed explain a lot when it comes to history of religion. 
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JollyJoker
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posted November 05, 2019 01:13 PM |
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Come to think of it: Isn't religion just a pre-scientific way to explain the world and its forces? And isn't "worshipping/praying/sacrificing/religious ritual" just a pre-scientific way to try and influence the course of things?
Wouldn't that mean, "religion" is a natural and necessary development?
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Neraus
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posted November 05, 2019 01:20 PM |
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artu said:
Neraus said:
Or he fell off a horse and got enlightened, wouldn't be the first time.
I guess, that’s a reference to Paul the Apostle. Come to think of it, head injury would indeed explain a lot when it comes to history of religion.
Well, at least if it was the product of head injury then it means it had a positive effect on the minds of the first fathers of the Church.
Now, as for Protestants, I'm now convinced they were hit on the head by heavy mallets, especially the guy that came up with Mormonism.
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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Blizzardboy
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posted November 05, 2019 03:35 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
Come to think of it: Isn't religion just a pre-scientific way to explain the world and its forces? And isn't "worshipping/praying/sacrificing/religious ritual" just a pre-scientific way to try and influence the course of things?
Wouldn't that mean, "religion" is a natural and necessary development?
Of course.
While there is a lit bit of overlap, such as etiological stories that are meant to explain an origin, religion and science mostly serve separate purposes though. The conflict between science and religion is an artificial construct and it is mostly a problem with certain individuals. It was never an issue in the Middle Ages, for example.
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Blizzardboy
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posted November 05, 2019 03:37 PM |
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@JJ
Sure there are large portions within the tent of Christianity that don't acknowledge the Pope, but large portions do. The point is that for anybody who cares, there has been a "Peter" around since the 1st century up to the present day, and there will be one for future centuries. That way people aren't left to the whims of subjective interpretations which ultimately leads to chaos.
There's not really any other equivalent. The Dalai Lama sort of comes close but his authority isn't institutional the way the Pope is. Yes, shamans served similar purposes in tribal societies. Humans logically understand the need to have a spokesperson or a central voice versus a free for all.
Protestant Christianity, Islam, and Hinduism (to name three big ones) are all in the same boat in that there isn't really a central authority in the religion. This means you ultimately have scholars, preachers, and public opinion deciding on the religion and religion simply becomes a reflection of popular norms in society. That's why Swedish protestants were 98% similar to Catholics 400 years ago and today they're non-practicing and almost a mirror of secular Swedish society. There was no instrument in place to prevent that from happening or to maintain any sense of integrity within the tenets of their beliefs. That's also why the number of denominations number in the tens of thousands.
Mind you, societies with Islam or Hinduism are FAR better off than an atheist state, which is the peak of widespread human misery and sadism. The existence of these belief systems still provide many critical benefits to the population.
Basically, the predictions of the Protestant Reformation from Catholics in the 16th century were completely accurate and we are living with the unfortunate consequences.
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JollyJoker
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posted November 05, 2019 04:29 PM |
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Blizzardboy said:
@JJ
Mind you, societies with Islam or Hinduism are FAR better off than an atheist state, which is the peak of widespread human misery and sadism. The existence of these belief systems still provide many critical benefits to the population.
Okay, you ARE trolling, because that is plain dumb polemic nonsense that has nothing to do with the matter at hand and is probably just supposed to provoke.
Really, what is the matter with you?
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blizzardboy
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posted November 05, 2019 04:42 PM |
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I would like for it to be a polemic, but it's just a factual statement of any country that has experimented with state atheism.
The only reason you are even protesting what I said is because public education institutions teach about stuff like Nazis, but they conveniently gloss over ideologies of the 20th century that were even worse. It is on par with Holocaust denial, except it happens from the top down so that makes it seem okay. I believe this makes such institutions in the West to some extent illegitimate.
And the reason it is relevant to the topic is because I wanted to show gradation. I don't believe all religions are the same but I do think religions are valuable and they should be respected. Islam and Hinduism were both able to repel the communists, so tens of millions to hundreds of millions of lives were sparred and billions of people were sparred a lot of misery.
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JollyJoker
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posted November 05, 2019 04:54 PM |
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There is no difference between state atheism and state <religion>. State atheism is just antitheism substituting theistic religion with a quasi-religion - say communism.
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blizzardboy
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posted November 05, 2019 04:58 PM |
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Countries organically evolved over time and certain religions were officially recognized and integrated with the state. This was the norm of history. I'm not saying this model is ideal but it is how human civilization worked as people went from small tribes, to cities, to kingdoms, etc. It was this way everywhere in the world. There wasn't really anything malicious about it, per se.
Supplanting state religion with an officially atheist institution was done much more deliberately, much more quickly, and the results were unbelievably horrific.
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JollyJoker
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posted November 05, 2019 05:10 PM |
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That's a load of factual nonsense, apple-oranges comparisons and general bull.
I have no time for this crap.
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artu
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posted November 05, 2019 05:48 PM |
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@JJ
Well, of course religion WAS a way to explain the world, it was science, law, morality, art all combined into one big pile of cultural output. Today, all these things have diffenent standards and methods. The problem is religions can not adjust to or adjust very slowly to new norms and facts, they are frozen databanks. So just like everything else, they disappear when their already bulky potential to adjust diminishes and when enough time passes, each one turns into mythology and literature.
The state atheism part is non-sense indeed. Atheism itself is not a state policy. It’s like taking Nazis and labeling the atrocities they did as “horrific things people who dont believe in ghosts do.” This level of imbecility isnt even fit for trolling.
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JollyJoker
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posted November 05, 2019 06:54 PM |
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Well, it was THE wy to explain the world and read some sense into it.
The thing is that the old religions have lost a lot of credibility due to science and general enlightenment - but of course there is still a craving for "spirituality", especially since science fails to address a couple of things.
Anyway, I don't want to hijack the thread, it's about "Christianity", and I'm not part of that.
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blizzardboy
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posted November 05, 2019 07:40 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
That's a load of factual nonsense, apple-oranges comparisons and general bull.
I have no time for this crap.
Quote:
The state atheism part is non-sense indeed. Atheism itself is not a state policy. It’s like taking Nazis and labeling the atrocities they did as “horrific things people who dont believe in ghosts do.” This level of imbecility isnt even fit for trolling.
Nevermind that all of the founders and proponents of communist states explicitly and aggressively ranted about religion as a poison and mandated its persecution or destruction and explicitly put atheism into the structure of government. It is exempt from any and all responsibility. Communist state atheism simply was not a thing.
Again: Holocaust denial. That's all it is.
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artu
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posted November 05, 2019 08:15 PM |
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Communist states didnt do what they did “in the name of” atheism. Communism itself has its own metaphyisics, a deterministic dialectic “materialism” which is not materialistic at all. “Factual non-sense” fits perfectly to your reasoning. Nobody “denies” some totalitarian states did horrific things, your reasoning is the part we deny because we are not high on heroin.
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Blizzardboy
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posted November 05, 2019 08:27 PM |
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... What? Are you reading my posts?
They didn't do what they did "in the name of atheism". They did it because of atheism. The mass violence, genocide, persecution, and restructuring of society happened explicitly because according to them - and they wrote it down - A) Religion was an oppressor, and B ) Current institutions, such as capitalist society or emperors or tsars, or whatever, were oppressors, and those institutions were established largely through the endorsement of religion. Religion was the enemy and atheism was a cure because that meant you would be too informed and too clever to be fooled by the oppressive institutions of the past.
I'm not saying some random kid in a Western country is complicit in genocide because he happens to be an atheist. "Atheism" is a large blanket viewpoint that can apply to many people. I definitely think atheism in the West is a negative social agent in society and it decreases empathy, family connections, volunteerism, charity, birth rates and several other things, but I don't associate a proponent of state atheism in a communist country with a secular liberal atheist in the USA or Canada or somewhere else. They are obviously two different things. It's just basic common sense and common courtesy that you treat people as individuals based on what they do or don't do.
But, organized state atheism in various countries DID murder millions upon millions of people, more than the Nazis ever did. Atheism isn't a religion but if it were put in the same category as other major world religions it would easily make it to the top of the list by an overwhelmingly massive margin in terms of human deaths and human suffering. Not surprising, really. Human beings are biologically religious and spiritual animals and artificially removing that aspect from a person's mindset has disastrous results. What was previously inconceivable to do suddenly becomes conceivable.
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artu
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posted November 05, 2019 08:44 PM |
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Organized state atheism is not a thing, it is like saying organized state aghostism or organized state azeusism. You can not organize an epistemological position. What you’re trying to say is totalitarian state anti-theism, which has nothing to do with the subject. Recent rise in non-religousity has nothing to do with totalitarian policies. It is a natural progress. You can naturally think whatever you want about how it effects this or that but your opinions are as insignificant as one’s opinions can get and you cant make people believe in stuff once they realize such things are myths.
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Blizzardboy
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posted November 05, 2019 08:58 PM |
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Again: you're making random unsupported statements. Children in non-religious households transition to becoming religious as adults at high rates, so yes, the process is easily reversible once people become better informed on the topic and are exposed to more than a steady stream of caricature.
That isn't necessarily easy because of the alliance of pop culture and educational institutions giving misinformation, but it is still possible.
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artu
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posted November 05, 2019 09:22 PM |
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Edited by artu at 21:31, 05 Nov 2019.
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So, educational institutions are giving misinformation and I am the one making unsupported claims. It is a little disheartening to see you devolve into a trollian version of Elodin who doesnt even believe in what he says but I guess, it’s natural for “reborns” to be out of their depth. Statistics may zig zag a little in the course of 5 years or so, (but they didnt and your claim is false), yet, if you take the perspective as centruies, you will see that traditional religions are on their way out in a slow but steady fashion anyway. Repeating non-sense from evangelist sites wont change the course of history. And I already replied to this propaganda a page ago, the tendency of masses to believe whatever tale they believe has nothing to do with reality or how actual information is produced. The clergy (of any religion, there is nothing priviliged about any of them) is no longer the center of intellectual output, it hasnt been for centuries. Even if what you said had been true, it would have been as significant as a lot of people believing in astrology or your hotels not having the 13th floor.
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This thread is pages long: 
