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JollyJoker
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posted November 05, 2019 09:39 PM |
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Blizzardboy said:
... better informed ...
You know, for every Iran you throw into the pot I easily pick a China.
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Zenofex
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Kreegan-atheist
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posted November 05, 2019 10:22 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 22:23, 05 Nov 2019.
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Blizzardboy
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Nerf Herder
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posted November 05, 2019 11:08 PM |
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You haven't said anything of substance apart from rehashing unsupported claims that religion is the past and rational (as if it were rational) secularism is the future when trends are moving in the complete opposite direction.
Atheists have decreased in socioeconomic status and education since earlier decades. While it is true they tend to be more affluent there really isnt as stark of a difference as you make it. Growing numbers have either only some or no college education. And that is because as a worldview it really isnt as well supported as more passionate adherents such as yourself like to claim. It is not at all a divide of those who are educated and those who are not. And this is in spite of the fact that atheists are more focused on their career and on consumerism.
Overall, I think it is fair to say I have been more convincing and have won this discussion. You've either used strawmen arguments, made random remarks that are not supported, or accused me of trolling.
If people would like to go back to talking about other stuff that is fine.
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Oddball13579
Supreme Hero
Grandmaster of the Hunt
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posted November 05, 2019 11:58 PM |
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Things are heating up in the religion fandom
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"Just slide her down a bit farther. I could wear her like a hat." - Gnomes
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Neraus
Promising
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Pain relief cream seller
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posted November 06, 2019 01:02 AM |
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The correlation education/atheism to me has always been quite contentious, as well as the trends of growing atheism and the shrinking of religion; I don't dabble in that kind of statistics that much anymore, so I haven't kept track of the current trends, but I feel like it's just too simplistic to look at it as correlated to the increase of knowledge and education.
So I'll bite on the occasion and say what I think, first of all, I think a first cause, which is in my opinion one of the strongest is the growing urbanisation and the weakening of social cohesion, it goes without saying that in the smaller, rural centers, there is almost a compulsion to participate in church life, it being one of the wider and more far reaching regular social gathering in small town life (I remember my childhood, when mass basically was almost a parade of people we knew and interacted on a regular basis, my hands always hurt), while in larger centers there is a certain lesser drive to participate, both because you are less bound to the "local" church, and because in a city, there are much more chances to engage in social life. Then there's the problem of urban life, with its peculiar schedules, and/or logistical problems (parking, public transport etc.), which discourage one from doing what is arguably not that enjoyable of an activity, I myself I'm guilty of that for example, due to wonky schedules I end up oversleeping on Sunday and feel like crap for the rest of the day, plus the nearest church has some kind of Evangelical taliban, so... I kind of skip sometimes...
Linked to the previous but more variable are the cultural factors, which is why France has a steadier growth of non-religious people compared to Poland, which had a strong revival of Catholicism after the fall of the communist regime, as my brother says sometimes: they kiss the Pope's feet as a political statement, compare this reactionary force from Poland to the centuries of laicism in France, the hopelessness of a state that lives in illusions of grandeur and that continues to import people from other cultures.
And that is why Muslims in Europe resist the trend, as they face what I always denounce, the phenomenon of ghettoisation, where they are a forced to band together and thus find in Islam a common denominator to go on with life, in time, when these minorities will be fully integrated in the urban framework, they'll follow similar trends I believe.
Next point which we agree on, loss of political and intellectual power of religion, which sees Christianity lose to Islam, the first being more on the sidelines as the private belief of the private citizen, while the second still is a state religion and enforced in select countries, plus, while Christianity is not officially involved in intellectual affairs outside itself, but only has some intellectuals that don't feel the need to publicize their faith, there are Islamic universities, which can work against the trend.
I remember sometime ago looking at some articles saying that there are more intellectuals that are deeply religious than one may expect, but it's not really something impactful if they don't speak out, now is it?
Which leads me to the next, peer pressure, which, of course goes both ways, and its stronger relative... Senior pressure? Dunno, it's late and I don't want to search the term, point being, having some outspoken and convincing members of either side is bound to make uncertain people drift to their position, one may just need to hang around at a university or an high school and see how people tend to have confused ideas, and will flip flop a bit before eventually siding somewhere, so that's how you have religious teens that have some confusing ways to explain something gradually drift to atheism since they can't explain what they're trying to say. And then, there's no more strong authority that will give a counterpoint, and... Oh back to point 1 am I?
I'm not a fan of promoting the effectiveness of education, it's something so passive nowadays that I doubt it's sufficient to make one believe the existence or non-existence of God, one might say that studying hard sciences may obviously dispel the "myth", but... How many really think through the consequences of what they study? Plus, sometimes there is even an ironic effect, like, something that happened while I was studying physiology these days, about the brain, sleep and brain waves... Well, I'm definitely more convinced about that spiritual mumbo jumbo of hidden brain powers now than before. Well, of course itsa me, but you never know if some other guy reaches similar conclusions.
Then there's the can of worms of philosophy and psychology, but I definitely don't know what the students there think, so I can't talk about how active they are in learning and thinking what it entails.
The only guy I know like that is Noobie, and he does seem to think about what he learns so that's a positive.
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 06, 2019 08:15 AM |
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That's the disadvantage of an active troll - people losing interest in discussing the issue, so serious posts tend to be wasted.
Sorry, Neraus.
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NoobX
Undefeatable Hero
Now, this is a paradox...
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posted November 06, 2019 11:23 AM |
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Quote:
Then there's the can of worms of philosophy and psychology, but I definitely don't know what the students there think, so I can't talk about how active they are in learning and thinking what it entails.
The only guy I know like that is Noobie, and he does seem to think about what he learns so that's a positive.
There is a lot of variation when it comes to the topic of God and religion among the students of Philosophy, but I've only encountered one die-hard atheist (or rather anti-theist) as my colleague; he went as far as completely avoiding and boycotting the medieval philosophy course. Same goes for my professors, but while I know that there are some who are undoubtedly Christian, there are some who I cannot categorize as they did not bring up the topic and did not comment their stance on the topic.
From what I've heard, though, the Philosophy department on the University of Belgrade is leaning towards the non-religious part of the spectrum and holds a predominantly analytical position as opposed to my department which is predominantly continental. So as you can see, it's not all clear even among philosophers.
I, myself, have stated it before, and I'll state it again - I am not a Christian, I have abandoned that creed long ago. Over the course of my life I've come to dismiss all of the Abrahamic religions. If I'd place my money on something it would be natural religion, but even then I do not find enough reason to be compelled to believe in that.
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Ghost said:
Door knob resembles anus tap.
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Neraus
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posted November 06, 2019 11:44 AM |
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I should have been clearer in that I was referring to quality of discussion and its correlation with the progress in their course, but that is useful to know as well, especially that there's a rift in focus between departments.
For education to have a real influence, in my opinion, it has to have a strong impact, making the student think through what the subject entails, and, well, I have seen no one of my colleagues ever break into philosophical arguments, despite learning that basically brains are quantum computers, we work like machines and that matter itself is quite mechanistic. Well, you could say that people studying in a course because they were rejected from medical school don't care about spirituality apparently. 
NoobX said:
Same goes for my professors, but while I know that there are some who are undoubtedly Christian, there are some who I cannot categorize as they did not bring up the topic and did not comment their stance on the topic.
Yeah, that has been my experience as well in the restricted environment of High School, the farthest they got was being a bit anti-clerical, but never had a strong stance on religion in itself. Actually, come to think of it, my suspected commie philosophy professor once said she made a pilgrimage to Santiago, so that was a big surprise at the time.
Which is why I said that thing about there may even be many intellectuals that hold religious views, they just keep silent about it, just as there are many atheists that don't feel the need to shove it to your face.
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted November 06, 2019 01:51 PM |
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Edited by artu at 14:02, 06 Nov 2019.
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Not really Neraus, the thing is, there are a lot of people who stay religious in the cultural sense, for instance, they may baptise their child or have ceremonial funerals etc. But if we look at intellectuals according to their output, (and they cant be silent about that) it’s completely secular. Philosophy today (unless you study it as history), is not what it used to be either. It no more involves itself with core questions like, what is the universe, what is the mind, etc. Answers to such questions are overwhelmingly dominated by positive sciences today, philosophy rather merged with social sciences and it has become a field of semantics. Metaphysics, is never about the properties of the universe anymore but about which meaning we attribute to what and how we categorize things. “Is the ship of Theseus, still the ship of Theseus?” this kind of metaphysics carry on, “what is the essence of universe” Sorry, go ask a scientist, we dont cover that anymore.
And the correlation between higher education and non-religiousity or atheism is usually not about this topic or that but rather about having a broader picture in general. The teachings of these ancient, agri-cultural religions -very justifiably- start to appear very small to people when they are able to place themselves in a 13.7 billion year old universe, among millions of living organisms that mostly went extinct, 300K year old specie with thousands of incompatible religions which are mostly extinct again... this is not something about urban logistics, it is about how you percieve the world and how you percieve your existince in relevance. The ancient religions are so egomaniac about being a human, as if this whole universe was tailored for us, it just doesnt fit anymore. It doesnt fit in the cosmological sense, it doesnt fit in the ethical sense. But yes, an intellectual can still consider him/herself religious on an “every day reality” basis, as in, he can give donations to a church so that they do charity work which is not much different than saying “god bless you” when people sneeze. But everybody with a little bit of common sense and proper knowledge, realizes the stories themselves arent true and they are the equivalent of any other mythology.
Edit: Also, when basing such stuff on personal observation, keep in mind that both Italy and the Balkans are very conservative when it comes to religion and not exactly the center of philosophical output in this century.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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CountBezuhoff
Supreme Hero
Nihil sub sole novum
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posted November 06, 2019 03:01 PM |
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'If you want to know where all the good wine went, ask the priest.'- Balkan proverb
The Count
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted November 06, 2019 03:13 PM |
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Lol. That’s different. We also have similar proverbs mocking the hypocrisy of clergy. Doesnt mean they are reformists.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Neraus
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posted November 06, 2019 06:11 PM |
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You know, we are arguing the same things in regards to culture, the example of France vs Poland is exactly that, there are places that still have a stronger cultural influence in regards to religiosity, and the same applies to the example of Muslim Europeans who haven't yet integrated, same things about clerical institutions being out of political and educational roles now, I took these factors into account.
Secondly, you both have mistaken my observation on young people, I don't want to argue what rates are religious vs non religious, there are statistics for that, and I'm not a guy that likes to argue about statistics, but rather the tendency of people of that age (but to be honest that's the majority of people of any age) of being passive with the information given.
All the analysis on how religion is of the past, of its not being with the times, of it being too local compared to the universe, is a cool story, but how many people actually think about that? I'm not talking about who agrees or not, mind you, but rather, do they really care about that? Heck, you'd even get religious people agreeing with that, but then have them argue a second later that God made it perfect and big... Actually there was a comic strip about that...
Now, yes, I'm in a more conservative environment, but there are some things that cross cultural and temporal lines, and one is the idea of "I just want to live my life", besides, I brought up the example because we're conservatives in an hard science environment, that should be one of the end points, yet people are indifferent.
And lastly, there is a certain conceit in assuming what crosses someone's mind, how can you know some big name in science actually prays every night, makes pilgrimages and does whatever he can to get an apparition of the Virgin Mary? Ok, that's a bit extreme, but you get my point, there is the tepid kind you're describing, like any human of any social grade or education, and there may be someone more deeply religious/spiritual, despite having great credentials, a successful background and what have you.
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted November 06, 2019 06:53 PM |
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It’s not about what you have, it’s about what is real. Real tastes better, even if it is harder to chew.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Neraus
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posted November 06, 2019 07:56 PM |
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Well... I wouldn't want to be a Tzeentch right now.
Or a Hume, loved studying the guy, somehow I understood him right away when it came to him. I also understood Nietschze right away (But not how to spell/pronounce his name), wait...
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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artu
Promising
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted November 06, 2019 08:38 PM |
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If I’m reading this symmetry you’re building right, you imply there is this ever going battle between the believers and the non-believers. There isnt.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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JollyJoker
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posted November 06, 2019 11:03 PM |
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Times have changed irrevocably. 800 years ago people believed in god as in the next sunset. His existence was a fact for them. They knew for sure - which was what believe meant.
Today we don't believe anymore, because we are taught in school to DOUBT; to check everything, to look for proof, collect facts and so on. So MOST of us are simply unable to REALLY believe in something, simply because we learned otherwise (religion classes notwithstanding).
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Neraus
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posted November 06, 2019 11:07 PM |
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Edited by Neraus at 23:15, 06 Nov 2019.
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Well, there were theologians that basically started their arguments by employing doubt, the difference being the kind of proof they looked for, hence why from a position of doubt one may arrive at St. Thomas five proofs of God for example, a kind of proof that is entirely based in logic, but not natural phenomena. I'd say the standard is different instead, back then natural laws weren't as understood as now, so it was a matter of demonstrating through only logic and rationality.
And even then, if you look further back, there were atheists in the Roman Empire, there were atheists in the Greek city-states who arrived at those positions just by reasoning, but was that fruitful for them? One could easily deny their ideas through similar means as well.
@artu
Erm no? No symmetry there, besides weren't both Hume and Nietzsche irreligious?
I was going to make the joke of: "What even is real, do we know what reality is?", that's why I mentioned Tzeentch, but then I remembered good ol' Hume was heavily skeptical of observation thinking it couldn't be objective.
And then Nietzsche was me fooling around because the two philosophers I understood easily and immediately aren't exactly the ones you'd expect a good Catholic to like.
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted November 07, 2019 12:25 AM |
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@Neraus
Okay, I will read you another day then.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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JollyJoker
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posted November 07, 2019 07:48 AM |
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@ Neraus
No. There is no way to tackle Jesus dying for humanity and living again, redeeming us all with logic or the mind (Christianity isn't about God, but about Jesus). John 6.47 :Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth hath eternal life.
THAT is the center of Christianity, and the central word is BELIEVE. Not KNOW. Believing means knowing to be true WITHOUT formalities like proof.
And THAT I meant when I said, that this... well, it's even difficult to find a term - this state of mind is something we learn in school is crap. We do NOT know something to be true without proof, that is absolutely against everything we learn anywhere else.
So the scientific way and the religious way are opposites in this regard, but the scientific way has certainly improved our miserable life.
And when I say that, I mean no disrespect against believing. I just say that this state of mind has been dying a slow death with the onset of science, which means, that even people who WANT to believe have a hard time actually doing it.
Look - as little children we believe. We believe in Santa. We believe verything our parents tell us. They say something and we know it to be true. However, going to school (which is something most people didn't in the dark ages) or even earlier, we learn - it's not true. Santa or not, it's mom and dad who buy presents. And we learn the scientific way and not to trust anyone and anything without checking twice, because otherwise we'll fall on our noses quite often.
We learn there are different religions, different gods, different opinions...
We UNLEARNED believing, collectively. Having faith - something we unlearned as well. It hasn't got anything to do with the mind or logic at all.
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Neraus
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posted November 07, 2019 11:31 AM |
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Edited by Neraus at 13:19, 07 Nov 2019.
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First off, we Catholics don't mind using God and Christ interchangeably when referring to the wider picture, Christ is central to Christianity yes, but He's also a part of God and thus He is God Himself. So that separation only is "valid" when referring to heretics.
The Crucifixion and Resurrection weren't an object of belief before, they were considered historical facts through and through, people claimed to have found the cross, they claimed to have found the burial shroud (and btw, the shroud is an interesting piece, since whatever the origin, that image is supposed to be burnt into it, so even as a forgery it's really interesting someone thought about that), same goes for the various stories of saints, people may have been skeptical at times regarding their ability to ask for miracles (that is the correct way according to the Church), but their historical presence was considered a fact, due to the remains that were paraded across Europe.
Heck, there are even supposed to be dragon bones in a church in Mestre (and you can see them for yourself, huge bones indeed, you can see why they called them like that).
And that is included in my "the standards changed" argument, because yeah, I can agree that those are most certainly not dragon bones, but take your average guy, who may have travelled only in his region, the possibility of a huge lizard outside the borders doesn't seem that farfetched when he saw the bones of that.
But human remains, and other human relics would have been far harder to disprove, how can you prove that the pieces of the true cross weren't made of that wood? Or how can you prove those weren't the nails that were used to crucify Christ? You're a blacksmith? Your opinion is invalid, those are supposed to be regular nails, the Romans executed Jesus like a criminal, at least, that's how a conversation would have went back then.
Yes, belief is the most important part, but it's not supposed to be the discount belief that evangelicals sell you that you just affirm something, people needed signs to believe something, they just didn't know how to deny them. Now the tools are there... But we're not going down without a fight.
Oh btw, I'm not arguing that we don't get taught critical thinking, but rather that it's an ineffective teaching that reaches fewer people than the possible listeners. For the collective to unlearn belief or faith, you need to reach much more than that.
Edited a part for clarity.
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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This thread is pages long: 
