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| Thread: This is for gender ambiguity |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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fuChris
Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
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posted November 16, 2016 07:09 PM |
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LizardWarrior said:
No matter how much you want to deny it, it is a disease. It deprives an individual of reproductive capabilities.
Is being ugly a disease as well? Is being poor a disease? Is becoming a Catholic pries a degenerative mental disease? Don't make me laugh by comparing it to Alzheimer or cancer which is something that destroys a person.
Being on the trans-scale (which btw we all are) is at best a social disease and as such can only destroy you socially.
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"Now I am become Chris, the destroyer of worlds." - Robert Oppenheimer.
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted November 16, 2016 07:10 PM |
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artu said:
A disease is something that harms or hinders you mentally or physically which is not the case for homosexuality. Saying it's a disease is like saying being left-handed is a disease. Having children is not a criteria for being healthy (most of us here would be considered very sick if it was) and homosexual people can have children with artificial methods or through adaptation anyway.
I was talking about transsexuals, not gays. But still comparing homsexuality with being left-handed is too far fetched.
fuChris said:
Is being ugly a disease as well? Is being poor a disease? Is becoming a Catholic pries a degenerative mental disease? Don't make me laugh by comparing it to Alzheimer or cancer which is something that destroys a person.
No, I compare it with Psychosis. They lose perception on identity, suffer personality changes and have delusional ideas, if you think about it, it's just a milder form of Psychosis.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 16, 2016 07:13 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 19:17, 16 Nov 2016.
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Okay, it seems I need to make myself clearer with regards to our relationship because it seems to matter to you people. This guy is not what I'd call a "friend", he's not even someone in my university group, we just happen to hang around with some common people on occasion, the friend's friend type of thing. So that's to say that we're not really close and the argument doesn't carry a sentimental baggage.
That out of the way, I see no reason for me to buy into his delusion. If he's comfortable lying to himself that's fine by me, but making me lie for him to feel comfortable? Never. If he draws offense from it that's his problem.
@kiryu133,
How about he starts accepting him for who he is? And what does being supportive mean to you? Going along with a lie or trying to make him see reality? Biologically he's male and he'll never be able to change that. He can only try to put up some make-up and surgery but that's about it.
@fuchris,
I appreciate the sarcastic jab at society, but believe me, finding out that someone who wears a skirt and push-up bras has a dick is not that insignificant of a change.
@Ohforfsake,
It's not about you, but thanks for the confession I guess? 
@AlHazin,
I haven't had any extensive conversation with him about it, and I believe it would be very awkward if we did, but I don't plan on cheering him on with lies. Don't really know about his sexual orientation and I plan on keeping it that way.
@Maurice,
I don't really know how much of the biological arguments are actually true and not biased towards the increasingly vocal (sexual) minorities, but I do agree that there's genetic differences between male and female bodies that a sex change won't ever be able to overcome.
Don't really appreciate the ad hominem, but while we're at it, my understanding of loving someone as myself is definitely not lying to them that they are what they are not, but rather to understandingly point at the reality of things.
@LizzardWarrior,
I fully agree with you 
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted November 16, 2016 07:18 PM |
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personally I'd do my best to understand and support that person within reason mate, if that's what they sincerely want then what does it bother me and who would I be to judge or question it,
I'm pretty sure that they're not lying to anyone for sure, rather seeking to find a bit of comfort in their own skin,
gender pronouns are a bit stupid and redundant if you ask me anyway, it's an old linguistic construction we can evolve past, I say we should shift to a generic pronoun but in the meantime it's no big deal to indulge people is it lol
doesn't serve any pragmatic purpose to give the person a hard time or worse, decide to shun them because of mere trivia,
let's just be grateful our physiological decks of cards were shuffled the way our minds wanted them in advance, we have it easy lol
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted November 16, 2016 07:18 PM |
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Edited by artu at 19:20, 16 Nov 2016.
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@Lizzy
Well, you mentioned all diseases were more likely to hit when you're old and that comment was about homosexuality. So...
Having sex change operations may have troublesome side effects but if the result is worth it for the person, it's not a disease in the sense that it harms or hinders the person in a significant way. Having an eye surgery may also have unwanted side effects.
The left-hand analogy is not far-fetched in my opinion because in the end, it's just being unusual that causes the stigma. You probably know that there were times when left-handed people were accused and burned of witchery, too.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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AlHazin
Promising
Supreme Hero
النور
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posted November 16, 2016 07:21 PM |
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Edited by AlHazin at 19:34, 16 Nov 2016.
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I mostly agree with LizardWarrior.
Well Artu, I understand that people might develop a specific reality, but that is not sane from my point of you. Yes people have (and might suffer from) what we used to call a mental disorder. But the real question is, what is our position about them? What are we going to do about them? And I think this is the question Stevie is asking us and himself. He hesitates on how to react with his friend. And that's the most annoying thing with it, it's difficult to find cristal clear answers and take positions.
Some will tell you : born this way. So it's a phoetal I don't know what thing. Some others will tell you that we choose at a certain age. It's hard to understand all these phenomenons, and it's hard to define them.
Where does transexuality begin and where does it stop? Is it linked to homosexuality? If yes, how? Can you be either one without the other?
There are cases, too, of some people who used to be homos, then stopped being it. And became pure heteros. So the reverse phenomenon exists.
And I'll tell you something dear mate, you see those numbers they give about homos in the world? I'm convinced they're all lies. Because it's a problem of definitions, which are hard to set too. There are way more homos then humanity wants to admit it.
Definitions like : what is a homosexual? Does one homosexual experience make you homosexual? Must you be defining it as a constent in you to be homosexual? What is its position in your culture? In southern and eastern Asia it's not defined the same way as in Europe, etc...
It's a very big question. And I won't tell you that I could give even the weakest answer to it.
@Stevie : I advice you not to stop talking with him. If it's really a problem for you, since he's not a friend and you're not likey going to speak with him so often, try using language turnures that don't involve pronouns. Romanian is a roman language, so when you directly adress someone, conjugasion is the same for both. The problem remains with adjectives maybe, so use them separately : don't say : you're good? (masculin or feminin), say : good? You're good looking good looking, Are you hungry? Hungry?
I'm serious, that's a good compromise. But quitting talking to him just for that, is not a good thing.
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Nothing of value disappears from this world, it will reappear in some shape or form ^^ - Elvin
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted November 16, 2016 07:28 PM |
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LizardWarrior said:
No matter how much you want to deny it, it is a disease.
It's a construction flaw at best; the blueprint was either flawed, or the blueprint wasn't followed as it should have.
A disease is an afflication, an ailment of the body, that produces toxic (to the human body) waste materials or consumes the building blocks that compose the body.
To call these equal is too much of a stretch. Yes, external agents can affect hormone balances, but that is simply fighting a biological condition so the person in question can become "socially acceptable" for all the narrow-minded people who have only two labels to classify people with: "male" or "female". While the label is true in a strictly biological way due to the chromosomes, it completely ignores the rest of the picture that details the individual.
fuChris said:
Actually it is statistically proven that straight men are likely to have homosexual inclinations as the get older(somewhere around age 50). This suggests that these is an actual evolutionary factor involved.
It might also be the fact that these men have been gay since birth, but have been pressured into a straight life because of social demand. I've seen this twice during my life. In both cases, they said that they acted straight "because that was what was expected of them". That feeling of pressure was so strong, they never really considered it before. They both had children, by the way. Once they got older, they finally couldn't care anymore and started to explore "forbidden" feelings and realised they were in fact attracted to men.
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted November 16, 2016 07:35 PM |
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artu said:
Having sex change operations may have troublesome side effects but if the result is worth it for the person, it's not a disease in the sense that it harms or hinders the person in a significant way. Having an eye surgery may also have unwanted side effects.
Yes, it hinders their life and I genuinely feel sad for them, it has negative psychological effects and physical as well if it's caused by hormone. Also gender changing surgery only makes things worse.
Quote:
It's a construction flaw at best; the blueprint was either flawed, or the blueprint wasn't followed as it should have.
A disease is an afflication, an ailment of the body, that produces toxic (to the human body) waste materials or consumes the building blocks that compose the body.
If it's a hormone problem, then it also has visible negative effects. And if you want to damage your body with a surgery that will not have any positive biological effects that may or may not totally ruin you psychologically. I know you want to sound impartial and be politically correct, but it's a disease, just like Body Integrity Disorder, you want to remove something that is biologically normal, only because you will think it will feel "better" after.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted November 16, 2016 07:38 PM |
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Edited by artu at 19:42, 16 Nov 2016.
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AlHazin
But it' not something they "develop" or "suffer from." They don't suffer when you peacefully let them be as who they are, neither do you. It's just how they are and it is not harmful. And it is not a "lie" since it is genuinely how they feel (excluding the attention seeking minority). To quote the above in this context:
Maurice said:
Yes, external agents can affect hormone balances, but that is simply fighting a biological condition so the person in question can become "socially acceptable" for all the narrow-minded people who have only two labels to classify people with: "male" or "female". While the label is true in a strictly biological way due to the chromosomes, it completely ignores the rest of the picture that details the individual.
And such details are ALSO biological in most cases and who cares if they are not. Since the 1970's, it is not considered a mental disorder by psychiatrists and the reason it was considered that before was cultural, not scientific. There were cultures that was perfectly fine with in the past, too. Most weren't because most traditional societies distance themselves from anything that is unusual. So, why should anything be done about it?
@Lizzy
Did you read the article you linked to the end:
"I don't think that any research that denied transsexual patients treatment would get past an ethics committee. There's no other treatment that works. You either have an operation or suffer a miserable life. A fifth of those who don't get treatment commit suicide."
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted November 16, 2016 07:53 PM |
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Those were just some opinions, the research says otherwise
Quote:
in a five-year study of 727 post-operative transsexuals published last year, 495 people dropped out for unknown reasons
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A 1998 review by the Research and Development Directorate of the NHS Executive found attempted suicide rates of up to 18% noted in some medical studies of gender reassignment.
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Arif, which advises the NHS in the West Midlands about the evidence base of healthcare treatments, found that most of the medical research on gender reassignment was poorly designed, which skewed the results to suggest that sex change operations are beneficial.
It's more like we don't know a treatment yet, in the past people were given too some drastic alternatives, like injecting mercury for siphilish, drilling a hole in the skull for mental disorders or using a red hot iron to cure hemorrhoids. As medicine evolves, we will see efficient cures, for now let's not claim that surgery is the solution, neither do I say that we should just shove pills up their throat, people just need to be sympathetic for them, not push and encourage them to make a horrid surgery.
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Neraus
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Legendary Hero
Pain relief cream seller
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posted November 16, 2016 07:54 PM |
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Edited by Neraus at 19:54, 16 Nov 2016.
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@artu
It's still considered a mental illness in some countries, to justify making SRS paid by the state, coherent much?
Just like that accursed president of the Sicilian region Crocetta that gifted money to gays, just for the heck of it, while we still have broken roads and falling public structures.
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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AlHazin
Promising
Supreme Hero
النور
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posted November 16, 2016 07:56 PM |
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artu said:
So, why should anything be done about it?
It's a questionment that societies felt, they still do today, because individuals do. When one first discovered such different behaviours, he questioned himself, how should I react to that? What position should I take? Because it was unusual for us, and for some it still is.
I'm not saying we should do something in particular, I don't know what should be done, I never witnessed with my own two eyes a perfect society.
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Nothing of value disappears from this world, it will reappear in some shape or form ^^ - Elvin
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted November 16, 2016 08:13 PM |
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AlHazin said:
I never witnessed with my own two eyes a perfect society.
Neither did any of us. But there are ones which still mostly treat them like a leper colony and ones which mostly treat them as respectable individuals. Which one would you prefer to live in? Your behavior is part of the society you want to live in.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted November 16, 2016 08:40 PM |
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Ok note to self.. avoid this thread before I say something that would almost certainly violate the CoC.
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Message received.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 16, 2016 09:43 PM |
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i would never be friends with someone who didn't know their own gender or sex. if you can't figure out the snowing basics, then chances are, we won't be able to carry on a conversation of any substance. the guy sounds like an utter dumbass, stevie. so do anyone who can't figure out what the snow they are. i mean, ffs, look down. the kid didn't say "boys have a penis, girls have a vagina" for nothing. goddamn idiots. 
and, i would just like to add, that i am a vampire bat. and that you all should address me as, "the count". 
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted November 16, 2016 09:50 PM |
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But dear Creature of the Night, she does not sound confused about how she likes to be addressed at all, on the contrary, she persists to be called a she. It is not her that is the indecisive one.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 16, 2016 10:08 PM |
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i somehow misread the op. my point still stands, though. if you have a dick and call yourself a girl, you're a dumbass. period. i'm sick and tired of people thinking that they're something they're not. even if they have a sex change, they're still a guy, in my mind.
what it comes down to is this:
there's enough dumbass stuff in this world that people don't face when it comes to reality, to be adding even MORE dumbass stuff that prevents people from facing reality.
that, and the fact that people can't be whatever they snowing dream. i'm not a snowing vampire bat, simply because i think it would be fun to be a monster that creeps around, draining people of their blood. i'm not a president, simply because i want to run this country how i see fit. i'm not a millionaire, simply because i want the money to snow off from the rest of stupid-ass society as much as possible.
this bullsnow reminds me of that south park episode, where kyle got a "negro-plasty"(became a tall black guy so that he could play basketball), and his dad became a snowing DOLPHIN. it's beyond ridiculous, that people think they can be whatever they want, and that others HAVE to put up with their delusions. snow off with your bullsnow, and stop bullsnowting YOURSELVES. get real, people. we've got to get REALITY together, before we can start snowing with the DREAM WORLD. we can dream whatever we want, AFTER we straighten REALITY out. for snows snowing sake.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted November 16, 2016 10:22 PM |
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Well, as it has been already said by many already, when it comes to gender, the reality itself is not always so binary. In terms of sexual organs, you can be a boy or a girl but in terms of your biological urges you can be the opposite, even in terms of having sexual organs you can be in between, they're called hermaphrodites, that is not a fantasy, calling it a fantasy would be like calling a young albino person who explains he is not old delusional because he has white hair.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted November 16, 2016 10:22 PM |
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Then why are you a millionaire vampire bat president?
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 16, 2016 10:32 PM |
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Edited by fred79 at 22:37, 16 Nov 2016.
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artu said:
Well, as it has been already said by many already, when it comes to gender, the reality itself is not always so binary. In terms of sexual organs, you can be a boy or a girl but in terms of your biological urges you can be the opposite, even in terms of having sexual organs you can be in between, they're called hermaphrodites, that is not a fantasy, calling it a fantasy would be like calling a young albino person who explains he is not old delusional because he has white hair.
a guy who identifies as a female and wants to snow, or be snowed by guys, is called "gay", artu. a female who identifies as a male and wants to snow, or be snowed by females, is called "lesbian". you are what you want to snow. that doesn't change your plumbing. that doesn't change your goddamn dna, either.
take a look at THIS, and tell me that these people are living in reality. people aren't snakes, or vampires, or demons, or whatever.
you know what the difference is, between all of these ADULTS who think they can be whatever they want, and children who celebrate Halloween by dressing up?
the CHILDREN know that they are only PRETENDING. it's embarassing, to see FULLY GROWN ADULTS who think they can be whatever they want to be, simply by dressing differently, snowing differently, or modifying the bodies they were born with.
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