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| Thread: This is for gender ambiguity |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · «PREV |
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Ebonheart
Famous Hero
Rush the rush
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posted November 18, 2016 07:30 AM |
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Mytical said:
However, you do realize that this is amusing to me. It is like a lion arguing to a bear that the bear is a delusional lion .. and that the lion knows better what a bear is then the bear what a bear is.
But the same argument is presented by both sides so what we actually have here is a clear case of psychosis.
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted November 18, 2016 08:32 AM |
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One side is arguing they know better then somebody else what gender that person is, without even a tad bit experience. The other side, who is me, is arguing that I know myself better then they do. How is this the same?
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Message received.
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tSar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted November 18, 2016 11:14 AM |
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Mytical said:
One side is arguing they know better then somebody else what gender that person is, without even a tad bit experience. The other side, who is me, is arguing that I know myself better then they do. How is this the same?
Wrong, the argument here isn't that anyone knows better than someone else, if you are something there's no need to convince anyone other than yourself. That isn't what's going on though, trying to sell something that others don't believe, in order to garner some kind of legitimacy is what I'm against and that's the real issue.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted November 18, 2016 02:26 PM |
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Not trying to sell anything. Giving my side of the transgender issue. I know that I am not going to change peoples mind who already have it made up, just giving an alternate perspective.. so we should never discuss anything ... at all? Why even have an OSM then?
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Message received.
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tSar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted November 18, 2016 02:31 PM |
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Same principle, nobody's side is watertight, we reaffirm ourselves by exposing it to criticism/scrutiny, our ability to handle that will determine how you advance yourself, it is still all about convincing yourself, not others.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted November 18, 2016 02:45 PM |
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Edited by artu at 14:45, 18 Nov 2016.
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That can be an aspect of discussing things but it's hardly the core of it. While some people will be stubborn as a mule, some will change their mind, at least partially. So, on an average, you can't change everybody's mind, you can't change anybody's mind completely, but you can change some people's mind to a degree.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted November 18, 2016 03:50 PM |
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Edited by Mytical at 18:29, 18 Nov 2016.
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tSar-Ivor said:
Same principle, nobody's side is watertight, we reaffirm ourselves by exposing it to criticism/scrutiny, our ability to handle that will determine how you advance yourself, it is still all about convincing yourself, not others.
Again, then what is the point of the OSM if not to discuss? Edit to add : In fact, we should never share any information. There goes the internet, phones, heck even telegraph... oh and we'd all have to live alone.. so goodbye cities, communities, and civilization. Lets all just live under a rock somewhere with our fingers in our ears.. heaven forbid we learn anything NEW
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Message received.
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tSar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted November 18, 2016 07:30 PM |
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Eh, you cant improve unless you discuss, but you don't inherently desire to have a discussion to change someone's mind or have your own mind changed, you want to vindicate your view and then improve it based on how you matched up with someone else's (at times you will be totally wrecked meaning you have to rethink your life kappa). You're hypothosis is really suspect as well 
Then there are people that have went down a point of no return and it's all they've ever known, they're life has become their view. Like terrorists (you've made your life choice and it's stuck with you so you can't afford to ever have self doubt) or transgenders as examples.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted November 22, 2016 03:59 PM |
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Randomly came across this article and I thought of this thread.
Quote:
The very concept of a “male” and “female” brain has been found to be flawed. A recently reported study showed that every brain is actually a mosaic of different patterns, some more commonly found in men’s brains and some in women’s. But none could be described as fully male or fully female.
So.. maybe getting confused over the gender of our mind is pointless? 
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted January 16, 2017 12:37 AM |
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Edited by Corribus at 01:21, 16 Jan 2017.
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*BUMP*
Totally random thought for the day. I can't remember where I was (maybe a news website) but I recently heard the phrase "gender confirmation surgery", referring to the surgery or series of surgeries basically involved in altering genitalia and other sexual characteristics. In the past this was always called sex reassignment surgery. When did this rebranding occur? There's a neat little bit of genius PR work tucked in there, and I have to admit it took me a minute before the lightbulb winked on and I figured out what they were referring to.
Anyway, as I said, totally random thought I figured was worth sharing.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 16, 2017 03:13 AM |
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Edited by Stevie at 03:16, 16 Jan 2017.
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This reminds me, I read a scientific article from 2004 in the New England Journal of Medicine called Discordant Sexual Identity in Some Genetic Males with Cloacal Exstrophy Assigned to Female Sex at Birth. They put to the test the idea that social and cultural influences play the primary role in establishing sexual identity, which is as I understand how things were regarded after the 1950's in medical circles - sexuality a social construct. Basically psychologists used this as an argument in favor of sexual reassignment surgeries thinking they were helping when they were actually doing more harm than good.
This article from 2005 in the New York Times is also great and more on the language of the lay man - Declaring With Clarity, When Gender Is Ambiguous . Dr. Reiner has some very interesting and insightful things to say, he's one of the doctors that assisted with the experiment above. Here's what's probably the most relevant two quotes in the entire article:
Dr. Reiner said:
Q. What conclusions can you draw about the eventual sexual identity of an intersex child?
A. That you can castrate a male at birth, create a female genital structure, raise the child as a girl, and in a majority of the cases, they'll still recognize themselves as male. Now many of the children I've seen are still young. I don't know what will happen as they get older.
The larger point is that it's been a monstrous failure, this idea that you can convert a child's sex by making over the child's genitals in the sex you've chosen. This began in the 1950's, when surgeons who felt helpless when they encountered intersex children thought they were helping them with sexual reassignment. The psychologists were saying, "You can make a boy or a girl or anything you want." It wasn't true. The children often knew it.
Dr. Reiner said:
Q. Can children grow up mentally healthy if they have ambiguous genitalia?
A. I think that these sexual assignments often create more problems than they solve. The children grow up with unhealthy secrets. What the kids tell me is that while they didn't know they were males, they always knew something was wrong because they were "too different" from all the other girls.
In my psychiatric practice, I've had families where the parents asked me to be with them when they told their children, "You were actually born a boy." That turned out to be a critical moment because every child converted to being a boy within hours, except for two. With those two, they refused to ever discuss their sexual identity again. Still, none of them stayed female.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 16, 2017 03:35 AM |
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He's talking about people "born with ambigious sexual structures" trying to be drawn into a gender they feel they don't belong to by parents or psychiatrists, what he talks about is not your "if you have a penis, you are boy and if you say you are not, that's a lie" approach, what he concludes in the end is actually exactly the opposite of that:
Q. What conclusions do you draw from your study?
A. That sexual identity is individual, unique and intuitive and that the only person who really knows what it is is the person themselves. If we as physicians or scientists want to know about a person's sexual identity, we have to ask them.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 16, 2017 04:24 AM |
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Edited by Stevie at 04:26, 16 Jan 2017.
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If I didn't knew better I'd say that you're replying with veiled disagreement just for the sake of controversy. But I'm glad you're actually trying to agree with me again, although the trend is rather disturbing by now. Let me also put it more accurately a bit.
What he's talking about is males with genital malformations being assigned female sexuality surgically and socially from birth for the sake of an experiment, the results of which seem to indicate that a popular myth in the field of 50's psychology that sexuality is foremost a social construct is false. Or, what I quoted first from Dr. Reiner if you managed to miss it - "That you can castrate a male at birth, create a female genital structure, raise the child as a girl, and in a majority of the cases, they'll still recognize themselves as male.". He does not argue along the lines of "if you have a penis, you are boy and if you say you are not, that's a lie" and no one claimed he did, although incidentally that is a method he instructed the parents to use on their "girls" to reassure them of their femaleness whenever necessary.
Also glad you read both articles I linked before replying and quote mining out of context, that's an admirable trait that not many choose to exhibit nowadays. Have a good night, artu.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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tSar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted January 16, 2017 04:42 AM |
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The framework for sexual identity is a social construct, kinda like words are the framework to express our thoughts, society doesn't give us those thoughts to begin with, but merely the tools to make them functional/useable.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 16, 2017 07:44 AM |
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Edited by artu at 16:25, 16 Jan 2017.
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Thing only thing in veil is the tiny little detail that you seem to skip he doesn't use the words male and female the way you do. The thread is here, isn't it? I'm taking your quotes within its context. Your argument was along the lines of "somebody wants me to call him "she" but he's a boy, so that's a lie and I don't think I should." And when people, including a transgender person and anybody else who already read a little bit about the subject, objected by saying that it's not that simple, that sexuality is not just about which genital you have, there are many more hormonal and neurological factors, you replied "XY and XX is no false dilemma, lol." Now, essentially, both of your links support what we have told you in the first place and what you rejected. Yet, you still manage to quote the part where he practically says "boys will be boys" and present it like it's something supporting your argument, when in fact what he talks about is the gender identity that you strongly refused, not the genitals. So who quotes who out of context.
Once again, you try to take something that disagrees with you as a whole and in essence, then say "glad, they agree with me" when they are (including me as in the other thread) doing the exact opposite. It's not a magic trick, repeating those lines won't make it so. Unless, of course, you are linking these to show us you changed your mind. The parts you picked to quote and the parts you decided to leave out suggest that's unlikely though.
And btw, it had not been what was mainly discussed in this thread but a lot of aspects of gender are indeed a social construct, especially characteristics that are attributed to them. (Such as boys are brave and girls are homey, etc.) You have a good night, too, condolences on the dog.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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