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| Thread: This is for gender ambiguity |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Ebonheart
Famous Hero
Rush the rush
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posted November 17, 2016 06:18 PM |
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kiryu133 said:
that's a fault of you, no one else
Ofc, but that also means not sticking me for not tolerating things.
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted November 17, 2016 06:35 PM |
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Edited by Gryphs at 18:35, 17 Nov 2016.
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fred79 said:
like a crazy person would claim something exists which nobody else can see.
No offense, but.... don't you do this?
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"Don't resist the force. Redirect it. Water over rock."-blizzardboy
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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted November 17, 2016 06:50 PM |
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Gryphs said:
fred79 said:
like a crazy person would claim something exists which nobody else can see.
No offense, but.... don't you do this?
Why do we always end up talking about Fred's penis?
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tSar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted November 17, 2016 07:18 PM |
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Hey having a phantom limb is a perfectly natural condition, LEAVE FRED ALOOOONE! Accept him for his condition and believe just as he does! SEE what he sees, and eventually you will feel it too.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 17, 2016 07:20 PM |
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted November 17, 2016 07:25 PM |
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Both sexes have the x chromosome. The Y chromosome does not kick in for several weeks, and X0 is female. Since ONLY the y chromosome decides the male gender. So no, I am not mistaken. You are free to believe whatever you wish, I will rely on science thanks.
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Message received.
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tSar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted November 17, 2016 07:26 PM |
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Quote:
You are free to believe whatever you wish, I will rely on science thanks.
Isn't this the essence of the counterargument ?
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted November 17, 2016 07:29 PM |
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kiryu133 said:
that's a fault of you, no one else
Frankly, it's not only his fault (even though I don't exactly agree with him). The self-righteous moral prick attitude - like yours - is repulsive even for people who would otherwise agree with some point, for those who would disagree it's a proof that they are right.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 17, 2016 07:30 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 19:41, 17 Nov 2016.
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Mytical said:
Both sexes have the x chromosome. The Y chromosome does not kick in for several weeks, and X0 is female. Since ONLY the y chromosome decides the male gender. So no, I am not mistaken. You are free to believe whatever you wish, I will rely on science thanks.
http://www.gender.org.uk/about/04embryo/44_cncp.htm said:
At eight weeks most of the features of the adult are visible, when it is referred to as a fetus. During the first few weeks, it is neither male nor female. However, a small group of cells, called the "indifferent gonads" begin to form, that are capable of becoming ovaries or testicles. At the same time, other internal features of both sexes develop, the Mullerian (female) ducts and the Wolffian (male) ducts.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gonad said:
Gonads start developing as a common primordium (an organ in the earliest stage of development), in the form of gonadal ridges, and only later are differentiated to male or female sex organs. The presence of the SRY gene, located on the Y chromosome and encoding the testis determining factor, determines male sexual differentiation. In the absence of the SRY gene from the Y chromosome, the female sex (ovaries instead of testes) will develop. The development of the gonads is a part of the development of the urinary and reproductive organs.
Science.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted November 17, 2016 07:32 PM |
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Edited by artu at 19:34, 17 Nov 2016.
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First things first, whether we are all female at conception can be called a matter of semantics, link, but I fail to see how that breaks down any of the arguments Mytical (and others including myself) presented about sexuality not being something binary and sorely dependent on your genitalia. This whole conversation has come to a point where people explain over and over again patiently that your hormone levels and neurological wiring also has a lot to do with what gender you attach yourself to, on an intrinsical level, repeatedly countered by an oversimplification of "if you have a dick, you are a dude." All the other elements are not things that "crazy people make up" and they certainly are about the biological reality we live in as much as our anatomy. The "if you have a dick, you are a dude" company doesn't seem to directly object to any of these facts either, they just seem to ignore them. I guess, that's because you can't take a picture of these things like you can take of a dick! A person's sexual identity is not sorely dependent on his anatomical parts, that's a very flawed reductionism, let's get this out of the way already. Most transgender people start to feel these urges at a very early age, while their sexual identity (gender) starts to develop but they can have no "brainwashed liberal fantasies" or whatever you presume on their minds. And whatever their genitalia is, people develop a sense of gender much later, around age four anyway. If everything works regularly, boys start to feel like they are boys and girls start to feel like they are girls, but that is NOT everybody and expecting everybody to fall in line accordingly is just narrow-minded because this is not some fantasy about being a lizard or something similar. It actually has a concrete, layered origin. The tradition of stigma or scorn is a heritage from the times when we couldn't research such phenomenon. Transgender people are not transgender because of some political climate and they are not spoiled brats trying to enforce their fantasies on others or whatever you have distaste for, they had always been like that. In less developed countries, they sometimes get killed for who they are but still can't change.
Secondly, I actually never used the word tolerate, I said let them be, to tolerate is something else. Let's say I have a neighbor who happens to listen to loud music. If I don't make a big fuss about it and just let it slide, I'm tolerating it. I have a justified reason to object but I don't, and about something that would normally disturb me. Transgender people don't disturb me to begin with, I have no problem with them. And if a person who has male genitalia has the biological urges of a woman, calling her a she is not feeding a delusion but rather accepting the notion that she has a better understanding of her own gender than what meets my eye on the surface. So, as long as they don't create some overzealous drama every time someone slips and call them a "he" by habit or a lapsus etc, we wont have any problems.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted November 17, 2016 07:38 PM |
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artu said:
Secondly, I actually never used the word tolerate, [...]. Transgender people don't disturb me to begin with, I have no problem with them.
Guilty here for badly choosing my words earlier.. Excellent post mate 
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted November 17, 2016 07:42 PM |
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Edited by markkur at 19:44, 17 Nov 2016.
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Maurice said:
the role the brain has and how it was formed, when it comes down to sexual identity. If the part of the brain that regulates sexual identity is formed in a female structure and yet this person has a penis (or male structure but with a vagina), there's a contradiction within the person in question.
That's not a blanket concerning all individuals but I think your point is a very solid one and <imo> receives very little attention to date.
i.e. I've met "nasty-flamers" that are out to set the world straight or maybe better put...un-straight.
I've met those that will do about anything for their perceived thrill and other variations on this subject.
But I've met those that are obviously "hard-wired differently" and cannot do a thing about it...even...if they wanted to. Some do and some would never but in the end (or not) both must adjust to a world in which they are not the typical individual dealing with the usual challenges revolving around sex.
A human-body is an incredibly complex system and <imvho> we may have "some" of the basics down-pat but there remain important areas like the Brain where we know very little. For good measure then toss in the reality that not all bodies are the same chemical-factories and to investigate you have the London-fog called a pea-souper to deal with. 
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Neraus
Promising
Legendary Hero
Pain relief cream seller
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posted November 17, 2016 07:58 PM |
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artu said:
And if a person who has male genitalia has the biological urges of a woman, calling her a she is not feeding a delusion but rather accepting the notion that she has a better understanding of her own gender than what meets my eye on the surface.
This is honest curiosity speaking, how exactly are a woman's biological urges different from a man's, barring the obvious once a month ordeal, of course.
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted November 17, 2016 08:26 PM |
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Well, from what I read and watched (there are a lot of interviews on Youtube), in the beginning, it starts by wanting to be pretty, putting on make up etc, they have the tendencies and interests of a female child rather than a boy's. They compare themselves to girls instead of boys, they feel more natural in girlfriend groups, they spontaneously pick female role models. There are all the little mannerisms only the parents can notice, who are usually the first ones to notice and go seek expert opinion, then they make some tests, brainscans and so on... Like anything involving the human psyche, it's a combination of many little things bringing out a bigger framework in the end. I wont be able to paint a very live picture since I never had a woman's urges and keep miserably failing at decoding them But just think of the times when you were coming of age, discovering your own sexuality and try to imagine everything proceeding very very differently.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Neraus
Promising
Legendary Hero
Pain relief cream seller
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posted November 17, 2016 09:18 PM |
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Edited by Neraus at 22:15, 17 Nov 2016.
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If those are the urges I'm honestly baffled at how it may be possible that one may question oneself at the point of saying that it's either a female in a male body or a male in a female body.
Of course, I understand that isn't the full picture, but out of those things you listed I don't think there is an element of discontinuity, by that logic had I known that those behaviours were of females, then maybe I wouldn't consider myself a man.
I'm still open to understanding what qualifies as a woman's mind in a man's body and viceversa, without it simply meaning we're talking about an homosexual (since apparently homosexual men have brain connections similar to those of women and viceversa).
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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Ereinion156
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 17, 2016 10:08 PM |
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artu said:
Well, from what I read and watched (there are a lot of interviews on Youtube), in the beginning, it starts by wanting to be pretty, putting on make up etc, they have the tendencies and interests of a female child rather than a boy's. They compare themselves to girls instead of boys, they feel more natural in girlfriend groups, they spontaneously pick female role models.
But, aren't those more characteristics that society gives to females? There were times, when it was seen as totally normal (at least in the western societies) for men to were make-up and perfumes and you really were nobody in the higher circles, when you were not doing so.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted November 17, 2016 11:09 PM |
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Well, some of my examples has a lot to do with how it surfaces out as an expression and that, of course, has a lot to do with the roles society attaches to gender, which is partly a social concept anyway. Transgender people are not immune to social constructs, none of us are.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 18, 2016 12:57 AM |
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Edited by Stevie at 13:45, 18 Nov 2016.
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Mytical said:
Both sexes have the x chromosome. The Y chromosome does not kick in for several weeks, and X0 is female. Since ONLY the y chromosome decides the male gender. So no, I am not mistaken. You are free to believe whatever you wish, I will rely on science thanks.
So Mytical, I'll quote you again since I feel I left you off the hook too easily with just two quotes, although excellent and relevant quotes at that. Let me explain in more detail where your error lies.
You state that "Both sexes have the x chromosome.", that is true.
Then you say that "The Y chromosome does not kick in for several weeks", which is false. What really happens is that after that period of time, the SRY gene contained by the Y chromosome triggers the development of the primordial, bipotential gonads into male testes. That does not logically lead to the conclusion that the Y chromosome has been inactive up until then (while the X one was, is what I imagine you meant). You're also forgetting that the embryo is also built on 22 pairs of other chromosomes that are not sexual.
Then you say "and X0 is female.", which is stating the obvious, that X is the female chromosome. Although technically X0 refers to Turner's syndrome, in which a female is missing a chromosome (45,X). But then again, that's a disorder, accompanied by many sexual dysfunctions at that.
You continue with "Since ONLY the y chromosome decides the male gender.", which normally is true because it contains the SRY gene (individuals with XX male syndrome are known to occur rarely). Although some recent studies have indicated that some genes in autosomal chromosomes can influence sexual differentiation.
And finally you say "So no, I am not mistaken.". Ah, but you definitely are.
So let's review the scientific facts again:
- genetically, a zygote is either male or female since its conception because of the XX or XY chromosomial pairing;
- during embryogenesis, an embryo does not display any sexual organs in its first few weeks of development;
- on the 4th to 6th week of gestation, embryos develop "indifferent" bipotential (neutral) gonads that can become either male or female sexual organs;
- at the same time, Mesonephric (Wolffian) ducts (male) and Paramesonephric (Müllerian) ducts (female) develop side by side, anticipating further development for either sex (when one is chosen, the duct belonging to the other sex starts to atrophy and becomes nonfunctional);
- during the 6-7th weeks,
a) the SRY gene from the Y chromosome determines testes development and inhibits development of female sexual organs;
b) the NR0B1, WNT4 (may be more) genes from the X chromosome determine ovaries development and inhibit development of male sexual organs.
What you seem to think is that femaleness is the default sexual development and the absence of maleness. I have yet to read a single article that suggests that, but already read at least three that argue for the opposite.
I don't understand what "science" you're relying on.
More food for thought and links:
http://www.gender.org.uk/about/04embryo/44_cncp.htm said:
"At eight weeks most of the features of the adult are visible, when it is referred to as a fetus. During the first few weeks, it is neither male nor female. However, a small group of cells, called the "indifferent gonads" begin to form, that are capable of becoming ovaries or testicles. At the same time, other internal features of both sexes develop, the Mullerian (female) ducts and the Wolffian (male) ducts."
"As early as 1983, the idea of femaleness being merely the absence of maleness was out of date. As Rose, Lewontin and Kamin(1) point out, there is a specific 'feminisation' process. Clearly there must be two X chromosomes, otherwise the gamete cells die, as in X0 (Turner's Syndrome), and the ovary atrophies. Moreover there is a rise in estrogens in the female embryo at six weeks, paralleling the rise in androgens in the male."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2658794/ said:
"In human embryos, the gonads begin development during the fifth week of gestation as protuberances overlying the mesonephric ducts. The migration of primordial cells into these gonadal ridges occurs between weeks 4 and 6 of gestation. At 6 weeks of gestation (4 weeks after ovulation) the gonads are indifferent, but bipotential, possessing both cortical and medullary areas and capable of differentiation into either testes or ovaries. They are composed of germ cells, special epithelia (potential granulosa/Sertoli cells), mesenchyme (potential theca/ Leydig cells) and the mesonephric duct system. Wolffian and Móllerian ducts exist side by side. Subsequent sexual differentiation requires direction by various genes, with a single gene determinant on the Y chromosome, the testes-determining factor (TDF), necessary for testicular differentiation, beginning at 6-7 weeks of gestation."
https://embryology.med.unsw.edu.au/embryology/index.php/Ovary_Development said:
"The female gonad is the ovary and is closely associated with female internal genital (reproductive) tract development. In humans, these laterally paired organs lie within the peritoneal cavity. Genes such as Wnt-4 and DAX-1 necessary for initiation of female pathway ovary development, female gonad is not considered a default process.
Initial gonad development in females and males is virtually identical with germ cells migrating into an indifferent gonad. In females with XX, the ovary then begins to develop and the subsequent structure and timecourse of germ cell then differs between males and females. In the ovary oocytes proliferate prior to birth and arrest in meiosis 1."
http://www.genecards.org/cgi-bin/carddisp.pl?gene=SRY said:
- UniProtKB/Swiss-Prot for SRY Gene:
"Transcriptional regulator that controls a genetic switch in male development. It is necessary and sufficient for initiating male sex determination by directing the development of supporting cell precursors (pre-Sertoli cells) as Sertoli rather than granulosa cells (By similarity). In male adult brain involved in the maintenance of motor functions of dopaminergic neurons (By similarity). Involved in different aspects of gene regulation including promoter activation or repression (By similarity). Promotes DNA bending. SRY HMG box recognizes DNA by partial intercalation in the minor groove. Also involved in pre-mRNA splicing. Binds to the DNA consensus sequence 5-[AT]AACAA[AT]-3."
http://www.genecards.org/cgi-bin/carddisp.pl?gene=NR0B1 said:
- Entrez Gene Summary for NR0B1 Gene:
"This gene encodes a protein that contains a DNA-binding domain. The encoded protein acts as a dominant-negative regulator of transcription which is mediated by the retinoic acid receptor. This protein also functions as an anti-testis gene by acting antagonistically to Sry. Mutations in this gene result in both X-linked congenital adrenal hypoplasia and hypogonadotropic hypogonadism."
http://www.genecards.org/cgi-bin/carddisp.pl?gene=WNT4 said:
- Entrez Gene Summary for WNT4 Gene:
"The WNT gene family consists of structurally related genes which encode secreted signaling proteins. These proteins have been implicated in oncogenesis and in several developmental processes, including regulation of cell fate and patterning during embryogenesis. This gene is a member of the WNT gene family, and is the first signaling molecule shown to influence the sex-determination cascade. It encodes a protein which shows 98% amino acid identity to the Wnt4 protein of mouse and rat. This gene and a nuclear receptor known to antagonize the testis-determining factor play a concerted role in both the control of female development and the prevention of testes formation. This gene and another two family members, WNT2 and WNT7B, may be associated with abnormal proliferation in breast tissue. Mutations in this gene can result in Rokitansky-Kuster-Hauser syndrome and in SERKAL syndrome."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gonad said:
Gonads start developing as a common primordium (an organ in the earliest stage of development), in the form of gonadal ridges, and only later are differentiated to male or female sex organs. The presence of the SRY gene, located on the Y chromosome and encoding the testis determining factor, determines male sexual differentiation. In the absence of the SRY gene from the Y chromosome, the female sex (ovaries instead of testes) will develop. The development of the gonads is a part of the development of the urinary and reproductive organs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_of_the_reproductive_system said:
"The reproductive organs are developed from the intermediate mesoderm. The permanent organs of the adult are preceded by a set of structures which are purely embryonic, and which with the exception of the ducts disappear almost entirely before the end of fetal life. These embryonic structures are the Wolffian and Müllerian ducts, also known as mesonephric and paramesonephric ducts, respectively. The Wolffian duct remains as the duct in males, and the Müllerian as that of the female."
I am eagerly expecting your educated and researched rebuttal, and if not that then at least an acknowledgment of sorts, if you still believe everyone's starts out as female or if my efforts made you reconsider.
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PandaTar
Responsible
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Celestial Heavens Mascot
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posted November 18, 2016 01:31 AM |
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In the end, all of us start as humans, and then slightly start losing the freedom to be equally responsible for our own decisions and wills, mainly because other humans start taking your freedom from you.
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"Okay. Look. We both said a lot of things that you're going to regret. But I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster."
GlaDOS – Portal 2
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted November 18, 2016 01:44 AM |
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Edited by Mytical at 05:09, 18 Nov 2016.
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I will acknowledge that the current scientific research is leaning the way you are suggesting, not above reassessing things.. however a lot more research is needed. So I will give you points for that.. when I did the research this was not the case, the absence of maleness was = femaleness. So back to the research for me, on that matter. Right now it is semantics.
However, you do realize that this is amusing to me. It is like a lion arguing to a bear that the bear is a delusional lion .. and that the lion knows better what a bear is then the bear what a bear is.
@fred it is the most delusional to think that plumbing dictates what you are. Otherwise ALL men would be hunters, into the same things, and protectors. ALL women would want to 'be pretty'. into the same things, and nurturers. Those are all social biases which belong in the stone age. Two men, born men and identify as male, can be as different as day and night. Gender is only part plumbing (and scientifically now the plumbing CAN be changed). Now more research is needed on the subject.. but it is believed that after the plumbing develops.. a male can suddenly get a surge of estrogen for no reason.. and they become mentally female.. just as after the plumbing develops some females get surges of testosterone.. becoming mentally male. It is not understood why it happens. Now nurture does come into play.. that is why there are cases of felines raised by canines who act like canines..and vice versa. If you have some mental block that keeps us from communicating, I am sorry. (()). I am not confused by the plumbing.. I know the plumbing, but I also know that people are different, and that plumbing alone does not dictate gender.
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Message received.
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