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Oddball13579
Supreme Hero
Grandmaster of the Hunt
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posted July 28, 2019 06:22 AM |
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@Otuken: Very good examples
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"Just slide her down a bit farther. I could wear her like a hat." - Gnomes
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monere
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted July 28, 2019 09:43 AM |
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Oddball13579 said:
It is possible. I would just have to play smart.
I know it's possible. But what I mean is you play PvP against a top ranked player and you go random and he randoms Castle, and you Inferno. I don't think you can beat him since Inferno is pretty weak, especially against Castle
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monere
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted July 28, 2019 11:28 AM |
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@otuken... you're an Inferno fanboy, I know. That's why you speak with such passion and devotion about your beloved town. In theory all of your statements are true, but in practice all Castle vs Inferno final battles that I've seen over the years have turned bad for Inferno.
@portus.... my favorite towns are rampart (cause that's the town that's introduced me to H3), Fortress (cause I love everything about that town except for their speed), and Conflux (cause I love the magic elementals)
Nowadays, I don't play HoMM anymore, not because I don't want to (that will never happen lol), but because I don't have time anymore. BUT, when I used to play this game weekly in hotseat against one of my high school friends between 2000 and 2002 I would usually pick one of these 3 castles most of the time, and every now and then Stronghold / Tower for diversity's sake. I have tried Inferno a few times, as well cause I like the design and skills of the sultans and archdevils, but my friend - who's been slightly better than me - would butcher me badly when I'd play Inferno. Other than these, I have also tried Dungeon a few times and even though the creatures and the town itself, design-wise, is pretty cool for some reason I can't get myself to like it. I can't explain why cause I don't have a logical explanation, I guess I connect (or don't connect for that matter) with this town on a more subtle level because I have had many moments when I'd shuffle through the town list trying to pick a starting town, and I've stopped many times to Dungeon only to change my mind in a split second and choose another one. I would go like "ok, I'm playing Dungeon cause I've not played it too much" and then, less than a second later I quickly cycle back/forth to another town and pick that one. I've had so many moments like this that I've lost count of.
As for Castle / Necro... I hate those 2 towns with passion, and pretty much everyone on this forum that knows me knows that I'm a hater of cheating towns like Castle and Necro. In over 20 years of H3 I have not touched this castles at least once in multiplayer games (and never will). I have only played them when I have happened to random them in single player games against the AI, and only on maps where random towns are hardcoded into the map, but even so I restart the map quite often if I random Castle. For Necro I'm making an exception, and not because of the necromancy skill (I genuinely hate spamming millions of skelletons, and consider this to be unfair advantage against any other non-Necro town), but simply because I love the dread knights. The DKs are one of my favorite H3 creatures, and if I'll ever willingly pick Necro it's because of those guys, and I obviously only play Tamika when I play Necro.
So yeah, that's pretty much how I'd choose my starting towns. Rampart / Fortress first choice of town in 70% of the cases, followed closely by Conflux, and Tower / Stronghold for diversity. All other towns are not appealing to me for the reasons I've explained. As for heroes, Kyrre, Dessa, Tazar, Mephala, Gundula (no, I don't like Crag Hack), Tamika, Monere are my favorites for obvious reasons
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Otuken
Famous Hero
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posted July 28, 2019 03:12 PM |
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In terms of pure weekly army strenght sure Inferno is alot weaker than Castle but this kind of battle pretically never occur like this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaE4MdLMxRM
In reality until the final battle, Castle will lose its a lot of units during clearing of maps while Inferno would lose very little because they will all be turned into demons. They will be able to break conservatories with Armageddon, their heroes will explore maps more thanks to faster creatures, easier access to
fast high level creatures and almost guarantee Log skill for Demoniacs.
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monere
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted July 28, 2019 04:01 PM |
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that video proves nothing. I've watched it an year ago for entertainment purposes because that's all that it's worth.
And yeah, if demon farming is done right Inferno will probably win many times against Castle due to its sheer amount of demons, but that's tedious to do, and in practice I have never seen it done against Castle and win, too. But that's hard to do when very few people willingly pick Inferno as starting town
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Otuken
Famous Hero
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posted July 28, 2019 05:02 PM |
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Very few people pick Inferno because very few of them really know how to play with Inferno.
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted July 28, 2019 05:49 PM |
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I play Inferno, in fact I play all towns about the same, but there are of course towns I like better than others.
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Oddball13579
Supreme Hero
Grandmaster of the Hunt
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posted July 28, 2019 08:20 PM |
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I always see people saying that in the "final big battle" Inferno loses blah blah blah.
I hate using this as an example. Waiting for some big month 3 final epic showdown is dumb and not a good way to base gameplay, strengths, or weaknesses off of.
In a real game things are never equal. Someone has a bigger army, someone makes a mistake and takes on a strong stack and loses the majority of their army. Or someone has better artifacts, or stronger spells. Hell, they may even have a split army or capture a completely different town. The game is full of variables.
So yeah at the "big epic final showdown" Castle will probably always win against Inferno. But that's a dumb way to play a strategy game.
But I'm talking from the perspective of a game that isn't played fairly. So yeah, it's a tough climb to beat Castle as Inferno, but it can be done.
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"Just slide her down a bit farther. I could wear her like a hat." - Gnomes
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monere
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted July 28, 2019 09:27 PM |
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Edited by monere at 21:30, 28 Jul 2019.
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why is it a dumb way to play like that? If the game has so many variables (your words, but which I agree with), isn't then normal for various players to enjoy different variables from that pool of "many variables"?
To be honest, a game that ends at the end of month 12 with one final epic battle is much more balanced than the games that so-called pros play (attack each other whenever they get the chance). And the reason it's more balanced it's because at the end of month 12 the entire XL + U map has been cleared out completely and devoided of all meaningful arties, spells, dwellings, etc. So, when the battle comes both players will have had all of the armies and stuff they want, thus winning the game being a matter of skill rather than of luck. In many competitive games that I've watched between pros the game has been won by the guy who's been luckier with finding the right artifacts, skills and spells first. Once he's got what he wanted before the other player could get what HE wanted - which happens all of the time because the chances of both players discovering the same crucial things at the same time, and engaging each other's main heroes with the right army, spells, skills, and arties are slim to none - he will just attack his opponent, catching him off-guard most of the time. And that is frustrating for the loser, and many times for good reason, too (he hasn't been lucky enough with finding the stuff he had wanted).
Sorry, but for me that's not a fun way to play H3. It's much more luck-based than the way I play it
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Oddball13579
Supreme Hero
Grandmaster of the Hunt
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posted July 28, 2019 09:48 PM |
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You blame luck. Luck on whether or not they find the "right" artifacts. Or spells. Or dwellings etc etc. Luck has very little room in a strategy game. Gain more map knowledge. Or if on a random map, scout faster.
In any RTS game or TBSG it's never fair. That's my point. Things aren't fair. You or your opponent may strike it rich and get some good artifacts or spells. So? Does that automatically mean your opponent can beat you? Or that you can curb-stomp your opponent? Not really. It comes down to how you play.
Waiting until month 12 to clean out the entire map and have one final clash is boring. There's no strategy to it. "Look at us we are both over powered and equal in all skills and have equal number of creatures" BORING!!
To me having a final big bang removes the strategy and a rather large aspect of the game.
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"Just slide her down a bit farther. I could wear her like a hat." - Gnomes
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted July 28, 2019 10:06 PM |
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"One big final battle" after both you and your opponent are sure that you've optimized everything there is to optimize is like two generals in the real world agreeing on an "army duel" with as perfect and fair conditions as possible and this has nothing do with any concept of war you can think of. HoMM is war game and as such it's much closer to the real world than, say, chess where both sides on the "battlefield" have identical armies following identical rules. The strategical part of the game - the one played on the adventure map - is where the game is typically decided before you even come to the "one big final battle" so putting armies in a chess-like manner (100 weeks worth of population or whatever) against each other is pointless and says very little about how powerful or weak one town is. SoD Necropolis is pretty terrible in such clashes too, the shock!
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monere
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted July 28, 2019 10:06 PM |
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Edited by monere at 22:13, 28 Jul 2019.
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you're missing the point, man. When you're equal (although in H3 you're never equal to your opponents due to the many variables involved)... as I was saying, when you're "equal" to your opponents in everything (arties, army numbers, spells, skills, etc.) the only thing that's left to decide the outcome of the battle is your own brain, thus your own skill. There is less luck involved than when someone ambushes you with 10 angels and 100 wyverns and all you have to do is 3 phoenixes, or whatever.
Boring? No, it's not boring for me if I'm having fun with this type of play. And if I think better, the way you're playing is not boring, either. On the contrary, it's more interactive than the way I play, so even less boring than my style of play. But the difference is that I enjoy taking my time (being rushed to do anything in life pi55es me off like you can't even imagine). I've been a slow thinker and slow acter since I can remember, which is why I prefer this type of play. It's Ok if you like to play differently, but it's also OK to admit that your style of play is based on luck more than mine 
@zenofex... it doesn't matter. That's how I like to play, and that's how I'm playing it. And I'm sure there's more people who agree with me, even if they don't actively say it. Besides, I have watched enough games between real pros (as seen by you), and was I to mimic their dumb strategies and way of play I could genuinely become one of the best H3 players in the world. I have the right IQ to do that, I just choose not to because I'm not having fun with this style of play.
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Revolut1oN
Famous Hero
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posted July 28, 2019 11:29 PM |
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monere said:
and was I to mimic their dumb strategies and way of play I could genuinely become one of the best H3 players in the world. I have the right IQ to do that, I just choose not to because I'm not having fun with this style of play.
XDDDD
Noobs never cease to amuse me
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted July 28, 2019 11:39 PM |
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portus said:
I won't say that fortress is worse than other towns because, as some of you have already stated, it depends on the playstyle and so many situational factors.
Fortress is a top tier town. The whole "fortress is weak" is a meme from 15 years ago.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Otuken
Famous Hero
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posted July 29, 2019 12:21 AM |
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I like totally open maps and constantly interacting with the enemy from the first week and doomed to finish around month 2.
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Otuken
Famous Hero
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posted July 29, 2019 12:43 AM |
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Doomforge said:
portus said:
I won't say that fortress is worse than other towns because, as some of you have already stated, it depends on the playstyle and so many situational factors.
Fortress is a top tier town. The whole "fortress is weak" is a meme from 15 years ago.
Where did this meme come from?
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted July 29, 2019 01:56 AM |
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In random SoD maps it doesn't matter if Fortress is weak as a whole or not, it happens to allow for the upgrade of one of your only two possible powerstacks, so it's a strong town
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monere
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted July 29, 2019 06:29 AM |
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Revolut1oN said:
XDDDD
Noobs never cease to amuse me
yeah, they're funny sometimes
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted July 29, 2019 08:09 AM |
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A duel-like battle has its own appeal and will probably provide you with more tactical tools than any early clash. But if you play for real, taking your time will simply get you roflstomped. It's not even a matter of viable tactics/strategies, simply of taste and mutually established understanding.
I sadly missed the H3 online era but my experience from the H5 times tells me that the vast majority of decisive battles are partially or even completely one-sided. The amount of close battle replays sharply increased after I made the duel map, with equal armies, magic shrines and gold for artifacts. Tactical battles can be found in any version of the game but 'duel' battles will be close more consistently. Of course, those are but a single aspect of heroes and will not challenge your creeping, route planning, town/economy management, risk assessment and so on.
And unsurprisingly, the actual balance will be far different from that of a real game, with or without a final battle agreement.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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monere
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted July 29, 2019 09:35 AM |
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Edited by monere at 13:03, 29 Jul 2019.
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Elvin said:
Of course, those are but a single aspect of heroes and will not challenge your creeping, route planning, town/economy management, risk assessment and so on.
Maybe not the town economy management, but it will still challenge the creeping because you'll still have to defeat the same mobs, whether it's now or later. If it's later they're just gonna increase in numbers and the challenge will still be there
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This thread is pages long: 
