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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted November 26, 2015 03:22 AM |
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Laser70 said:
Take Neela (Specialty: Armorer), build Titans and use shield on them aggressively = Invincible. ... Inequality does not mean a faction is bad, it just means that the player is bad. (In a war, the general doesn't say "We have two tanks and the other side has three tanks so we can't win the war", the bad general puts the blame on the tanks, the good general thinks in better ways. 
Ok, obviously you only play against computer but do you at least play at 200%? Cause usually when I see enouch money to think about upgrade the Cloud Castle, game is already in my hands.
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Laser70
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 26, 2015 03:32 AM |
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Edited by Laser70 at 03:38, 26 Nov 2015.
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I'm not familiar with your experiences with tower. Personally I don't play much at all, I am more into programming, modding and stuff like that.
Did you check out my ini extension mod I posted?
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted November 26, 2015 03:46 AM |
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Ok, I've seen people taking topes with the most unbelievable armies but how would you purpose to take one early game with Tower (to get the money to upgrade the Cloud Castle, for instance)?
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Laser70
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 26, 2015 03:51 AM |
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Tower is expensive
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted November 26, 2015 04:08 AM |
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Tower is expensive in resources, especially Gems, and also Gold for Could Temple. And the Naga Queen, while great, is also quite expensive. I've had tough times when playing with them to be honest.
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Laser70
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 26, 2015 04:14 AM |
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Drakon-Deus said:
Tower is expensive in resources, especially Gems, and also Gold for Could Temple. And the Naga Queen, while great, is also quite expensive. I've had tough times when playing with them to be honest.
Yeah thats the beauty about this game, the challenge. If you play tower you probably have big startup problems, but if you can get passed them and climb the latter, can probably be fun too.
I like tower, definitely. Perhaps it needs a rebalance, I can't tell. But I most definitely like tower. I like the units and the heroes too, I don't like magic heroes much, I tend to favor might heroes so when I play tower I usually play with Neela, I couldn't find a male alchemist with armorer so I have to settle with Neela.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted November 26, 2015 04:17 AM |
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I see what you mean, I was never fond of the Wizards either.
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted November 26, 2015 09:01 AM |
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In HotA building tree for Tower was altered so it's easier to build, they also save 7000 gold on their buildings, which helps out expensive Tower. But Tower is good, if you have the gold and ressources, Neela is a good hero and Titans and Naga Queens are good, but perhaps a little slow. But Air Magic is a friend of the faction, so mass haste and precesion can help out Tower. Too bad alchemists start with either Mysticism or Scholar, at least Mysticism could be a lot better...
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted November 26, 2015 09:36 AM |
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But I can't run HotA the same time or paralell as ERA, right ?
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted November 26, 2015 09:44 AM |
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I'm afraid not, I wish we could though.
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Laser70
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 26, 2015 11:55 PM |
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Besides the Naga Queen, I like master genies too because of the spellcasting ability it allows for some very nice strategy. If you find an enemy you want to strike you could collect all your titans in one stack and make room for your master genies, split them up into two or three stacks of master genies, then have 3 extra spellcasters per round. The first master genie casts spell on the huge stack of titans (Probably gets bless), next master genie cast another spell on your titan (Probably get precision) and the last master genie on the titan as well (And it gets stone skin, probably)
There is a good reason the AI computer will strike your master genie as the first priority, because it's deadly. If you use a master genie to cast bless on a titan (and the titan gains 1/3 extra attack strength) then a master genie is worth a master genie + 1/3 of a titan.
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Laser70
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 27, 2015 12:26 AM |
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Edited by Laser70 at 00:41, 27 Nov 2015.
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Which of the units in that are the wisest? Historically, I know which unit is the wisest, but the question remains open for some reason and questions that doesn't need answers are being risen. The Gold Golem.
One thing I've learned about games over the years, is that, if you explain 0.00001% of the total game mechanics to another guy, and he'll tell you that you're trying to explain 100% of the game mechanics to him, while in reality that's not exactly true, but to him it feels like so, for some strange reason. I try to understand it.
No more questions asked I hope. One too many asked about game philosophy and how everything is put together 
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Maag
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 27, 2015 07:22 AM |
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Edited by Maag at 07:46, 27 Nov 2015.
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Kicferk said:
So the statement was likely directed at randomly generated maps(L+U or larger I guess).
On which Tower is very very annoying to play.
It has no decent might hero, at least not compared to other towns. And magic heroes in general can't live up to might ones on larger maps.
It has a terrible movement penalty for any unts from starting hero other than tower one, as well as for every unit you could get outside of your town: angels, wyverns, skeletons.
It has expensive and slow build order. Especially if you go for upgrade of gremlins day 1 to get a better starting army, you will oftentimes be unable to build giants, or nagas+citadel. Mage tower is expensive in resources too.
And possibly some other stuff as well, it's tough to recall all of it at once 
But isn't Tower exactly for large or XL maps? Small or medium maps they really don't stand chance.
Besides, they really are expensive to build up, like Inferno town. So in my humble opinion, they only fit for rich larger maps.
On poor maps i would take Fortress anyday over Tower, which is my other favourite
But there are still some things people doesn't seem to notice. Yes, mage tower is very expensive to build up and even extreme to upgrade, through library, as we know. But let's face it - on medium map, if u really play Tower, would u really even upgrade mage tower, before game's over?
And on L or larger rich map, there will be no question to upgrade it anyway.
What people tend to forget then - build Cloud temple is cheapest of all lev. 7. Only 5000 gold + other resourches not much aswell.
U can get giants very quickly, even more easy than u get Behemoths in Stronghold.
Yes, upgrade is expensive (sic!), but again - rich L or XL maps, no problem.
I have played a lot with Tower. Saw once Maretti's game with Jebus Tower and what i saw from there - it's totally playable.
Players and their skill matter the most. Top players would own beginners even they play with Tower with magic hero on small map against Stronghold with Crag Hack etc.
About Alchemists. Yes, i know they suck. But take Neela. Specialty armorer, which affects everyone in army (i once figured Orrin would be best hero for Tower).
Now i know, what most of u would say, this damn scholer there. But i really find it more useful, than mysticism, sorchery, or other these. Later u could trade level 4 spells - which means u don't have to necessarily visit all towns with 4+ mage guilds to learn these spells, if u can trade from your other heroes.
Yes, i know, too few attack/def. from primary skills, too much knowledge.
But whenever i played with Neela, she rarely disappoints me with secondary skills, which will be offered. I have almost always archery, armorer is granted anyway. U would almost certainly get also wisdom, earth, water and air. Which are all imo must have for tower.
Oh, and snow penalties, it works also great against your enemy, if they come around.
I assume now there will be lot of arguments againt. Waiting to read them.
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MeKick
Hired Hero
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posted November 27, 2015 09:15 AM |
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Laser70 said:
Take Neela (Specialty: Armorer), build Titans --
Good luck -- in any decently large map for competitive play, you'll probably be dead long before you get those Titans.
Laser70 said:
Most people put bless on their units as the first thing to do --
Actually, no; I think that HASTE on their units would be the first thing that I've seen most players do. Or Slow on the enemy units.
Laser70 said:
in addition you can't blind it, hypnotize it, shut it down in any way.
Implosion says otherwise. As does Orb of Vulnerability.
Laser70 said:
If any unit in Heroes III is perfect, it is the Titan, it is perfect all the way it has it all.
Yes -- Titans have everything, including an enormous price tag and a Speed stat lower than AAs, Dragon Flies, Efreet Sultans, Black/Gold/Ghost Dragons, and more.
Laser70 said:
Yeah, tower is slow and expensive, but good players don't need to be bound by equality, they win because they are good players, and terms like "expensive" or "slow" isn't an argument for not using tower, not for good players. Bad players make equality a valid argument because there is nothing to compensate for inequality. Inequality does not mean a faction is bad, it just means that the player is bad.
So what you're basically saying is that if a player acknowledges that a faction's weaknesses are far more numerous and prominent than its strengths, then they are a bad player?
Also, how then would you define what constitutes a "good" player?
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Kicferk
Known Hero
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posted November 27, 2015 09:29 AM |
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Problem with mage tower is not its upgrade. The problem is, if you start on 160% you need 1 more of each resource than you have, and you need them quick.
Cloud temple is cheap, true. But because of bad build order if you don't have gargoyles prebuilt, you need to chose: either you make your start army viable by upgrading gremlins, or you go for giants week 1.
Also, to build giants week 1 you need to sacrifice a lot of resources to build other dwellings. Whereas for stronghold you need lvl 2 and lvl 5. And you get your behemot early in the week, and not in the very end.
Now, Tower on Jebus is playable, sure. But playable does not mean you win nearly as often as with other towns. Terrain penalty on Jebus is a very serious issue for tower. And in general, your enemy will not be hurt by your snow. Because it does not work on roads, and when he is coming for you he has enough power to go right for your main town. Why else would he bother rushing you?
It may surprise you, but the smaller the map the more viable mage heroes become. That's why on tournament 'M200', which was medium maps on 200%, many games were won by mages.
And alchemists are horrible. One of the worst hero classes. They get bad primary and secondary skills way too often, and Neela is no exception. Her speciality is a good one, but then again every player I see with tower goes with +350 gold a day instead of picking Neela.
Cheers
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MeKick
Hired Hero
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posted November 27, 2015 09:40 AM |
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Edited by MeKick at 09:40, 27 Nov 2015.
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I'm too lazy to argue against all of your points, Maag. However, seeing this:
Maag said:
Players and their skill matter the most. Top players would own beginners even they play with Tower with magic hero on small map against Stronghold with Crag Hack etc.
I would like to think that this is a given. In other words, I really don't think that much comes out of saying "If ['weak'] Tower is played by pros, they can stomp noobs using ['stronger'] factions easily."
For a discussion regarding a "worst" or "weakest" faction to be worthwhile, we should assume that a player using that faction is on a roughly equal skill level with their opponent (and, also, that the players are at least somewhat decent).
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Laser70
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 27, 2015 11:18 AM |
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Edited by Laser70 at 11:45, 27 Nov 2015.
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I think that people forget something, the game isn't always about that moment in the end where the title says "Game Won", it's also about the fun, and you don't necessarily have to lose the game instantly by playing Tower. Another thing is that the design of the map often have to take into consideration the weaknesses of Tower and they balance it out (if they are good map designers) so that Tower gets a little extra resources on the ground he can pick up during the start of a game.
It's not always about the "Game Won" at the end, it's about fun, I think most people would agree that it is about the fun and the challenge, and playing Tower is a challenge.
When Tower gets criticised, they should really be criticising the map designer, because it isn't a tower problem really, it's a map design problem. It's the job of the map designer to make a game playable, at least to a certain degree. A big part also lays on faction designer too, but it mostly is the job of the map designer. So if you design map, don't forget that, always put some extra resources on the ground for the tower player to pick up.
If building A of faction A costs 100 gold and building A of faction B costs 200 gold is not a problem with the faction, it's the damn map designer who has to fix this if he finds it reasonable to say that it's uneven or unfair.
Once you realize that everything is a map problem, if you change the positioning of towns, you can alter who will win that game, so it mostly is all about the map, that doesn't only affect Tower players, everything is about the quality of the map and honestly, I do believe that there ought to be some "unfairness" in the factions because it allows it to be easily compensated for in the map design, which allows great flexibility in "games".
Hell, if you even change the position of a tiny gem pond on the map, you can change the order of who will win that game, most of the times. So don't underestimate the role of the map designer, he is the guy who should punch his own face, because he decides everything.
also like to point out that there have to be a reason why the game designers made Tower so expensive, there might be several reasons we're not aware of. Perhaps they have taken into account for terrain cost (snow), perhaps units are stronger and better (which at least, the Titan is), there may be several reasons. I think they ought to have made Tower expensive, but the question is if they overdid it a little bit. I'd bet if you asked the game designers if they think they overdid it, they have had a decade to think about that question, I'd bet they would say "YES, lets lower that cost just a tad, I agree with you"
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Maag
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 27, 2015 11:53 AM |
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MeKick said:
I'm too lazy to argue against all of your points, Maag. However, seeing this:
Maag said:
Players and their skill matter the most. Top players would own beginners even they play with Tower with magic hero on small map against Stronghold with Crag Hack etc.
I would like to think that this is a given. In other words, I really don't think that much comes out of saying "If ['weak'] Tower is played by pros, they can stomp noobs using ['stronger'] factions easily."
For a discussion regarding a "worst" or "weakest" faction to be worthwhile, we should assume that a player using that faction is on a roughly equal skill level with their opponent (and, also, that the players are at least somewhat decent).
Let's assume it. What is your opinion?
We talk about L or XL maps, rich.
Another category would be S or M maps.
One other thing i noticed.
Someone said here people would often prefer Aine over Neela.
Why is that? +350 gold every day is not bad, but on main?
Aine if i recall was also alchemist. Her secondary or main skills are appearing better or why prefer her?
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Kicferk
Known Hero
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posted November 27, 2015 11:56 AM |
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Edited by Kicferk at 11:58, 27 Nov 2015.
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How much fun you have by playing a faction is irrelevant to how good the faction is.
I specified that I mean random maps. So there is no mapmaker to compensate for tower's defficiencies.
I think game designers made the game without fully realising what advanced gameplay could look like. If you start on 130% some of economic drawbacks of Tower go away, but standard for multi is 160%.
I would also point out that Tower was created before random maps were ever introduced. So perfect balance was in hands of mapmakers. But now it is not.
Edit:
Maag, you start with Aine, and hope you get an overlord/barbarian/beastmaster from Tavern, because of how bad lchemists are Aine is not going to be main, but then agan, neither is Neela.
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phoenix4ever
Legendary Hero
Heroes is love, Heroes is life
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posted November 27, 2015 12:01 PM |
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You sound like Tower is definitely the worst town. I think not, it depends on tons of things including the richness of the map. On lower difficulties Tower should have little problem building everything fast, on higher difficulities they struggle more and that can be a problem if the ressources aren't available. I agree with you that map designer has a responsibility to make all towns playable, sure Stronghold and Fortress might have an easier time, but Tower should still be playable. Tower also have a lot of stuff which makes them good. Only town with 3 ranged units, Titans are very powerful, have no melee penalty and are immune to mindspells (including blind) they also get the most spells and have the biggest chance of learning Slow, Stone Skin, Lightning Bolt, Quicksand, Force Field, Air Shield, Resurrection, Town Portal, Chain Lightning, Meteor Shower, Sorrow, Water Walk, Clone, Implosion, Fly and Dimension Door.
Castle, Inferno and Dungeon are also expensive.
Tower is certainly viable, but like everything in Heroes it depends...
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