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Laser70
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 27, 2015 12:21 PM |
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Edited by Laser70 at 12:46, 27 Nov 2015.
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Kicferk said:
How much fun you have by playing a faction is irrelevant to how good the faction is.
I specified that I mean random maps. So there is no mapmaker to compensate for tower's defficiencies.
When you say "random maps", what you mean are maps that have been randomly (accidentially) "not very playable" for tower. And the problem lays in the algorithm and the guy who made that, if you're talking about random map generators, and if you're talking about random maps, then the problem is still there. This isn't a tower problem, any map can be badly designed for any faction.
The same problem is still there, MAKE BETTER MAPS, because a good map have to account for ALL factions, not just all of them excluding tower. 
How good a faction is on its own is worthless statistics, in a real game, everything amounts up to how good a faction is, including player skill.
One thing holds true, there must be something that divides factions, the discussions can go on, but that can't really be used for any good arguments, because again, the damn map designer...
Also, if you're playing against the AI, you don't need balance, you're winning anyway, so the faction vs faction (Which is the better one) is only a valid question in human vs human games where everything absolutely must fall into a specific boring game pattern.
I used to play a lot of games vs humans but I've learned that it is a game destroyer, everything is reduced to boring patterns where they sacrifice all the fun in a game, just for achieving the absolute optimal results. I've learned to hate that type of games, and I usually don't account for such games in my evaluation of a game. The real instrument you should be using when evaluating something is how fun it turns out to be and how challenging.
There is only one goal in human vs human games, it is to remove all the bad elements in a game that you don't need (and that usually means you sacrifice all objects in a game that isn't optimal, including the fun that object may bring into a game) and by the end of the day, you have 1 tiny axe vs 1 tiny spoon, and they both kill one another with absolutely no entertainment, every piece of object has been removed from their daily use. It's reduced to basically nothing, i absolutely hate those game patterns, because it destroys games.
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Maag
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 27, 2015 01:58 PM |
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Edited by Maag at 17:01, 27 Nov 2015.
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Laser70 said:
Kicferk said:
How much fun you have by playing a faction is irrelevant to how good the faction is.
I specified that I mean random maps. So there is no mapmaker to compensate for tower's defficiencies.
When you say "random maps", what you mean are maps that have been randomly (accidentially) "not very playable" for tower. And the problem lays in the algorithm and the guy who made that, if you're talking about random map generators, and if you're talking about random maps, then the problem is still there. This isn't a tower problem, any map can be badly designed for any faction.
The same problem is still there, MAKE BETTER MAPS, because a good map have to account for ALL factions, not just all of them excluding tower.
How good a faction is on its own is worthless statistics, in a real game, everything amounts up to how good a faction is, including player skill.
One thing holds true, there must be something that divides factions, the discussions can go on, but that can't really be used for any good arguments, because again, the damn map designer...
Also, if you're playing against the AI, you don't need balance, you're winning anyway, so the faction vs faction (Which is the better one) is only a valid question in human vs human games where everything absolutely must fall into a specific boring game pattern.
I used to play a lot of games vs humans but I've learned that it is a game destroyer, everything is reduced to boring patterns where they sacrifice all the fun in a game, just for achieving the absolute optimal results. I've learned to hate that type of games, and I usually don't account for such games in my evaluation of a game. The real instrument you should be using when evaluating something is how fun it turns out to be and how challenging.
There is only one goal in human vs human games, it is to remove all the bad elements in a game that you don't need (and that usually means you sacrifice all objects in a game that isn't optimal, including the fun that object may bring into a game) and by the end of the day, you have 1 tiny axe vs 1 tiny spoon, and they both kill one another with absolutely no entertainment, every piece of object has been removed from their daily use. It's reduced to basically nothing, i absolutely hate those game patterns, because it destroys games.
There are many different templates. I'm new to them, cause majority of time have used certain maps or random, but not by template, simple random maps.
It would be interesting to learn more about different templates. Probably there are rich maps, poor maps, very poor or very rich in resources, a lot of creatures, or minimal amount, with water, without etc. etc.
Are there any good links or sites, which describe all or more known templates?
As much as i have scanned these forums here, i haven't find.
By the way - about faction characteristics - if we count terrain and heroes, we could aswell compare other things on the ground.
Yes - random maps and/or templates are quite limited. But take created maps, grasslands are full of amazing stuff, while snow, lava, desert are empty. Desert has the spring, which doubles mana though, which is awesome, but the rest, lava or snow..... 
One more thing about Neela - yes, alchemists suck, but isn't Neela's specialty armorer outmatching lack of attack/defense skill?
Against AI it feels army under her is like Mephala's or Tazar's, real tough.
Can anyone say it goes up to 100% more, or until 90% or 50% What are the limits there?
Anyway thanks for those, who answered, i got better idea, why tower isn't good in many cases. Pity, i really like them 
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Laser70
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 27, 2015 03:02 PM |
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Edited by Laser70 at 15:09, 27 Nov 2015.
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..and Tower has Arch Mages, they are old and wise and people should obey them because they have life experience and carry "the fruit of life".
You don't obey snakes, a wild african ox or a flying dinosaur, in this game we listen to the arch mages!!!
I'd also like to say that Enchanters are wise too, they carry the "coat of wisdom" and are also worth listening to!
A general principle is, fear the beard of the arch mage. In that beard is great wisdom.
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Kicferk
Known Hero
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posted November 27, 2015 03:16 PM |
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And I guess with that display of wisdom and insight into tactics we can let the discussion slowly wind down, hehe
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted November 27, 2015 05:04 PM |
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IF I could buy Enchanters in Tower town I would see things more clearly ;P
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted November 27, 2015 05:40 PM |
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Drakon-Deus said:
IF I could buy Enchanters in Tower town I would see things more clearly ;P
I've mine in a Strongold, does it make any difference?
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted November 27, 2015 05:52 PM |
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bet that if you try to switch slots with such armies, you will lose all.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted November 27, 2015 05:53 PM |
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bloodsucker - Enchanters make a difference in any army to me ... except when the opponent has the red orb
But if they were there to buy in Tower, I would like it more and not see it just a challenge.
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morgan_le_fey
Famous Hero
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posted November 27, 2015 06:20 PM |
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MeKick said:
Laser70 said:
Take Neela (Specialty: Armorer), build Titans --
Good luck -- in any decently large map for competitive play, you'll probably be dead long before you get those Titans.
Laser70 said:
Most people put bless on their units as the first thing to do --
Actually, no; I think that HASTE on their units would be the first thing that I've seen most players do. Or Slow on the enemy units.
Laser70 said:
in addition you can't blind it, hypnotize it, shut it down in any way.
Implosion says otherwise. As does Orb of Vulnerability.
Laser70 said:
If any unit in Heroes III is perfect, it is the Titan, it is perfect all the way it has it all.
Yes -- Titans have everything, including an enormous price tag and a Speed stat lower than AAs, Dragon Flies, Efreet Sultans, Black/Gold/Ghost Dragons, and more.
Laser70 said:
Yeah, tower is slow and expensive, but good players don't need to be bound by equality, they win because they are good players, and terms like "expensive" or "slow" isn't an argument for not using tower, not for good players. Bad players make equality a valid argument because there is nothing to compensate for inequality. Inequality does not mean a faction is bad, it just means that the player is bad.
So what you're basically saying is that if a player acknowledges that a faction's weaknesses are far more numerous and prominent than its strengths, then they are a bad player?
Also, how then would you define what constitutes a "good" player?
i didnt like the way you slammed laser but this was a pretty well thought out post and right on most points. i got a few remarks though. first i dont think that it is the size of the map that inhibits tower as much as whether it is resource rich. second you mention speed with respect to the titans and speed affects two things: first strike capability and ability to get across the board to do damage in melee. since the titans are shooters they can hit pretty much anything so the latter is not affected.
i think what laser is trying to say here though is that good player can take lesser resources and still be good with them. that is why the queen of england is sitting on her throne and you are struggling with the mortgage.
but thank you for providing us with a lot of thoughtful insight. if i had my way you would be promoted from tavern dweller but as you can see i rate no higher myself. ah wait??? i got promoted??? ye gods....this is a revelation.
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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted November 27, 2015 06:25 PM |
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Well it's kind of a shame in my opinion. Being the slowest town, together with stronghold, yet shooter heavy, means it might be more difficult for you to protect your shooters properly.
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted November 27, 2015 06:49 PM |
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Salamandre said:
bet that if you try to switch slots with such armies, you will lose all.
I even hesitate to move the hero himself. One of them is not exactly what it says...
Drakon-Deus said:
But if they were there to buy in Tower, I would like it more and not see it just a challenge.
That's the point, I'm not playing Tower, I don't have Dracon but I have 35000 enchanters just lying there and I will have about 99 000 in that same turn, when I turn the diamond golems in to more of them. And that's just by choosing wich WoG scripts I want to play with.
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HeymlicH
Famous Hero
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posted November 27, 2015 09:39 PM |
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Tower has strong units - among them one of the best lvl 7 units and one of the best lvl 6 units. The Problem is the price. If you play on 100% on an insanely rich map, that disadvantage will not matter.
The interesting thing is, on poor maps at 200%, tower is doing surprisingly well. The reason are the master gremlins, they can do a lot in the early game. So, you can just upgrade your workshop and build for money in week 1 (which usually is not very popular).
But on average settings your opponent's will build for lvl 7 dwellings in week 1, while you can't. If you are lucky, you get your nagas, but even that is not guaranteed.
And of course, all tower heroes suck.
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Laser70
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 27, 2015 10:51 PM |
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Edited by Laser70 at 23:33, 27 Nov 2015.
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MeKick said:
Laser70 said:
Take Neela (Specialty: Armorer), build Titans --
Good luck -- in any decently large map for competitive play, you'll probably be dead long before you get those Titans.
Laser70 said:
Most people put bless on their units as the first thing to do --
Actually, no; I think that HASTE on their units would be the first thing that I've seen most players do. Or Slow on the enemy units.
Laser70 said:
in addition you can't blind it, hypnotize it, shut it down in any way.
Implosion says otherwise. As does Orb of Vulnerability.
Laser70 said:
If any unit in Heroes III is perfect, it is the Titan, it is perfect all the way it has it all.
Yes -- Titans have everything, including an enormous price tag and a Speed stat lower than AAs, Dragon Flies, Efreet Sultans, Black/Gold/Ghost Dragons, and more.
Laser70 said:
Yeah, tower is slow and expensive, but good players don't need to be bound by equality, they win because they are good players, and terms like "expensive" or "slow" isn't an argument for not using tower, not for good players. Bad players make equality a valid argument because there is nothing to compensate for inequality. Inequality does not mean a faction is bad, it just means that the player is bad.
So what you're basically saying is that if a player acknowledges that a faction's weaknesses are far more numerous and prominent than its strengths, then they are a bad player?
Also, how then would you define what constitutes a "good" player?
The implosion isn't shutting down the Titan. And the Orb of vulnerability is the exception to the answer, it's not the answer. The Titan is immune to mind spells, as does the manual agree with me on that. You can't shut it down, and yes, if the map allows you to pick up the orb of vulnerability, you might be able to shut it down if the situation on the battlefield gives you enough space and time to cast it. But that is the exception to the answer, it's not the answer. The reason you need the orb of vulnerability in the first place is because the titan IS immune to mind spells, which I think verifies my point.
What I said about that people usually put bless in the start of a battle isn't a rule, your observation doesn't invalidate other observations, there are no rules in how people choose to play games.
And about the competitive play, yes I'll probably be dead because Tower IS expensive, as I've said a couple of times already, the disagreement exists only in your head.
And if you read further, you'll see that I propose to map designers to put extra resources for tower players to pick up, to compensate for that "handicap".
Personally, I don't see a reason to talk up Tower more than it needs to, in the end it depends on the player and the map. Math is important of course, but math does not decide outcomes of battles, they only tell you what is likely or not.
You have two options, you can say "Good luck" or "Good luck", but not "That doesn't work". (And I do have that luck, I have the pendant of courage, it gives me +3 luck hehe)
To shut down the titan you have to say "I can shut down the Titan IF", you have to put the IF in that statement in order for it to make sense. If is a logical construct in language that constructs exceptional answers, the IF does not in any way form a default answer. You could shut down the titan IF you had the orb of vulnerability, and thats the exception to the default answer that you can't shut it down. (Sorry about the spoon, I was hoping to avoid semantics)
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted November 27, 2015 11:00 PM |
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Laser70
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 27, 2015 11:06 PM |
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted November 28, 2015 02:25 AM |
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Laser70 said:
good thread btw. 
It is THIS thread (in his good old days).
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icare
Tavern Dweller
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posted November 28, 2015 08:02 PM |
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stronghold is so much better imo
possible day2 Behemoth(wolf den prebuild) vs day7 LUCKY giants says it all
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Laser70
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 28, 2015 08:30 PM |
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Edited by Laser70 at 20:39, 28 Nov 2015.
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icare said:
stronghold is so much better imo
possible day2 Behemoth(wolf den prebuild) vs day7 LUCKY giants says it all
When I have Titans there are only two units I fear, the Black Dragon and Ancient Behemoth. The Black Dragon is my worst enemy, but if I see an Ancient Behemoth, I blind it immediately, I can not afford to have a possibly hastened Ancient Behemoth on the loose, everything else be damned, I blind it instantly, it just may be that I put berserk on it, because berserk is so good on an ancient behemoth, the incredible blow it puts to the next unit is amazing. (Think twice which unit you put beside your ancient behemoth  )
Actually, there are 3 units I fear, the mighty gorgon too. Those 3 units are my worst enemies.
Archangels? Neh. I don't fear them, the reason is because the health isn't the greatest, they may be able to put a serious blow to me, and they may surrect some of their own, but I rely in the fact that they can be easily killed due to the not so high health points.
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icare
Tavern Dweller
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posted November 28, 2015 08:42 PM |
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on normal rich maps i have 3 ancient behemoth day 1 week 2, so gl with titans
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Laser70
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 28, 2015 08:48 PM |
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Edited by Laser70 at 20:58, 28 Nov 2015.
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icare said:
on normal rich maps i have 3 ancient behemoth day 1 week 2, so gl with titans
But I have not sworn alliance to any particular faction, I am a man of many factions, so lets not make this a faction vs faction thing. I am deeply into at least 3 factions, Dungeon, Tower and Rampart. Rampart being a faction I love deeply. I have nothing against Stronghold, but at the current moment I am not particularly fond of it either, but it changes over time. There was a time I absolutely despised Tower, I couldn't stand it. It has turned around again.
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This thread is pages long: 
