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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted November 28, 2015 08:59 PM |
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The issue isn't Titans vs ??. It's Tower vs. ??, or just playing tower in general.. yeah Titans are great, but playing Tower is not just playing Titans, it's acquiring them as well. Hopefully before your opponent have already won the game.
If you get your 7th level first week and can upg. before it's too late, then Tower is a strong town, but the units are still slow, so even then it's not a given advantage.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted November 29, 2015 12:49 AM |
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OhforfSake said:
The issue isn't Titans vs ??. It's Tower vs. ??, or just playing tower in general.. yeah Titans are great, but playing Tower is not just playing Titans, it's acquiring them as well. Hopefully before your opponent have already won the game.
If you get your 7th level first week and can upg. before it's too late, then Tower is a strong town, but the units are still slow, so even then it's not a given advantage.
7th meaning Cloud Temple first week? You mean play on Easy? 
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted November 29, 2015 01:04 AM |
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Drakon-Deus said:
7th meaning Cloud Temple first week? You mean play on Easy?
No, at 160% (usual for MP) with gargoyles dwelling pre-built, it is possible to build Cloud Castle at day seven, without castle or citadel.
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Laser70
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 29, 2015 01:07 AM |
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Edited by Laser70 at 01:28, 29 Nov 2015.
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Fighting behind castle walls isn't very entertaining and is a bit cowardly, but the arch mages prefer to sit behind castle walls, or so they have said. Tower is good when in a defensive position behind castle walls. Behind the walls you can have 3 stacks of Titans, one at both ends and one in the middle.
Then a stack of arch mages, because they lower spell costs by 2 points so I can cast bless at the cost of only 2 points where the other side have to spend 4 points on it.
And being behind the castle walls is safe and comfortable for tower players because they have a lot of ranged units. The titan is strong enough to attempt to take out the catapult on the other side, if successful and the enemy doesn't have earthquake yet, then the battle is pretty much won.
Up in the tall tower, high up there almost in the skies, sits a master gremlin at the top of the tower and watching the whole battlefield underneath, and he is reporting back to the Titans everything what is going on. Outside the walls are wilder beasts fighting one another in a huge berserk festival, and no catapult.
Behind the walls are titans having a cup of coffee with the arch mages, in the great advice hour, sharing much wisdom.
Titan's carry a golden suit, they don't want to be touched, they like it from a distance.
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted November 29, 2015 01:27 AM |
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Laser70 said:
And being behind the castle walls is safe and comfortable for tower players because they have a lot of ranged units. The titan is strong enough to attempt to take out the catapult on the other side, if successful and the enemy doesn't have earthquake yet, then the battle is pretty much won.
I only wich this one was mine...
Richard Chen - Trick 12 . Teleport
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Laser70
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 29, 2015 01:31 AM |
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Edited by Laser70 at 01:49, 29 Nov 2015.
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Yes, but I did say "pretty much won" I didn't say "Won". You have to spend 7 turns to get them in there one by one, and they are pretty much dead by that time. Maybe not dead, probably not, but you lose a great deal in that tactic, because the units that go in there one by one will get eaten up very quickly while the other are waiting outside, the naga queen will surely eat it up quickly.
This is if you don't have any flyers.
The point I was trying to make was that Tower love it behind castle walls, they absolutely fit well in there. But they are just as suitable on the ground.
When I play Tower I love defensive battles, because in there, the naga queen are very mobile on that tiny area, and she is a defender. She also likes it in there. All the other units also fit well in there. The master genies can cast beneficial spells and doesn't need to go outside the walls for the first few rounds, the titan can shoot, master gremlin and arch mages can also shoot. All the units fit so well in there and what puts the cream on top of that is that tower are masters at spell casting, and it cost much less, even the spell aspect of tower fits behind those walls.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted November 29, 2015 04:33 AM |
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bloodsucker said:
Drakon-Deus said:
7th meaning Cloud Temple first week? You mean play on Easy?
No, at 160% (usual for MP) with gargoyles dwelling pre-built, it is possible to build Cloud Castle at day seven, without castle or citadel.
Actually if you're lucky you can build it Day 5.
(This is from HotA random map at 160).
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted November 29, 2015 05:17 AM |
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bloodsucker said:
Drakon-Deus said:
7th meaning Cloud Temple first week? You mean play on Easy?
No, at 160% (usual for MP) with gargoyles dwelling pre-built, it is possible to build Cloud Castle at day seven, without castle or citadel.
I usually don't rush, except Behemoths since they're so cool, I play SP and hotseat, played online for too little. But good to know. 
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icare
Tavern Dweller
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posted November 29, 2015 06:11 AM |
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@Galaad
you need
garygoyles(can be prebuilt)
golems
mage guild
magi dwelling
djinn
naga
giants
so if gargoyles is not prebuild you can have giants on day7 the earliest and not on day 5
also giants+CASTLE is impossible, while citadel is, but it provides you only with additional nagas/djinss (and the other crap noone cares about)
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted November 29, 2015 08:28 AM |
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Right I totally forgot about Guild and Magi since in HotA you can skip them, lol!
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Qapla'
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posted November 29, 2015 08:51 AM |
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I'm starting out with HotA myself.
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted November 29, 2015 04:07 PM |
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Galaad said:
Actually if you're lucky you can build it Day 5.
How? Day 1 u have gremlins and gargoyles, build the magic guild, day 2 build the golem factory, day 3 build mages tower, day 4 build genies... I still miss one day for Nagas, even if I already notice you can also build citadel day 7, you can't build day 5 unless:
1. Mage guild is also pre-built;
2. Level 3 dwelling is also pre-built.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted November 29, 2015 04:33 PM |
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As I replied to icare, I mixed it up with HOTA where you can go:
- Gremlins upg
- Golems
- Genies
- Nagas
- Giants
- Citadel
- Castle
Sorry for the confusion.
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Laser70
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 29, 2015 04:33 PM |
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Edited by Laser70 at 16:40, 29 Nov 2015.
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It doesn't really matter if you need 2 or 3 extra days to accomplish the Cloud Temple because Tower can just pick the defensive role, the opponent waste those 2-3 extra days reaching Tower's towns by walking to it, especially if the map is large, you could even surpass any hero by producing more giants/titans than the other guy, simply because you're not the one visiting him. You could do some scouting still, but you wouldn't travel as far as the other guy, he may be able to pick up more resources/artifacts in the same time frame, but when he reach your town you could have more units ready just in time.
If he on the other side of the map 144x144, you already have more units in your castle when he reaches you. If you're the offender and you're visiting him, it would turn around.
Also, you can't compare 1 Titan vs 5 of X smaller archer type units, if you put 1 titan up against 5 grand elf, by the end of the battle, the rampart guy have to reproduce all 5 grand elves and the tower guy still have the titan intact, you can't compare titan vs other archers like that. There is a law in there you have to account for. When you're paying the high price for a Titan, you get a lot for the buck.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted November 29, 2015 04:39 PM |
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You didn't play much competitive MP, did you?
Usually when an opponent reaches your town, he has more or equal army, possible with Heroes chain. So the last town to build is the first one to fall.
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Laser70
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 29, 2015 04:45 PM |
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Edited by Laser70 at 17:23, 29 Nov 2015.
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Salamandre said:
You didn't play much competitive MP, did you?
Usually when an opponent reaches your town, he has more or equal army, possible with Heroes chain. So the last town to build is the first one to fall.
I hesitate to refer to MP experience, that depends much on what type of map was played and how good the player was. I've not played MP with tower at all actually. But I'm just saying that there is no difference between time spent in buildings if the time spent also have to accomodate for travelling to the town you wish to take, in which he has the walls to protect himself and if you lose your hero he'll also take your artifacts you collected on your way there.
He could have scouting heroes and also select a bit more of a defensive role, it's just simple math. A defensive role buys you more time, that the offender have to sacrifice. But now that HotA has made it possible to skip a few buildings before reaching the Cloud Temple that problem doesn't have to be a problem anymore.
The opportunity with a Titan is greater than the opportunity with, say Grand Elves. Because the Tower guy can put cure on the titan in each round, but to put cure on the Grand Elves would not have the same effect, they would lose some of them, while the Titan just keeps healing itself. It's something I've learned to appreciate about strong units, the frequency at they are recycled is low. This is especially true and valuable in early games, very early games, you just don't lose your titan, while Grand Elves would be lost frequently. In early games you could run around crazy killing small unit stacks without ever losing your titan. It's much more valuable. To do the same thing in an early game with Wood Elves, you would need resurrect and the tower guy only needs cure. And trust me, you save up the bucks you thought you didn't have and that people talk about that Tower doesn't seem to have enough of.
If you have a tiny Titan in an early game, and there are 50 small unit stacks spread around there, you could kill all of them, without ever losing your titan. So please never compare a titan up against X amount of weaker archers. It's not comparable, a Titan is superb quality, and it lasts.
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted November 29, 2015 05:07 PM |
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Salamandre said:
You didn't play much competitive MP, did you?
Meh, you are two pages late. I bet he can't win "Barbarian Breakout" at 200% with that strategy.
@Laser70 One of the reasons I prefer Heroes III to all other games I've played is how hard it becomes to win with a deffensive strategy.
If you can't explore the map faster then your opponents (specially if they are allied), you won't find enouch resources to build and buy at the same rate and you will be smashed, unless you play the battles extremely well.
Laser70 said:
This is especially true and valuable in early games, very early games, you just don't lose your titan, while Grand Elves would be lost frequently.
I remember to play one or two custom maps where you started with 1 or more Titans or with the upgraded level 7 pre-built but beside those cases I wouldn't call the moment I upgrade the level 7 dwelling (let's say when I have the money to upgrade the Behemoth Crag, the easier to build of all level 7 dwellings)"very early games".
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Laser70
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 29, 2015 05:10 PM |
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Edited by Laser70 at 17:11, 29 Nov 2015.
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bloodsucker said:
Salamandre said:
You didn't play much competitive MP, did you?
Meh, you are two pages late. I bet he can't win "Barbarian Breakout" at 200% with that strategy.
@Laser70 One of the reasons I prefer Heroes III to all other games I've played is how hard it becomes to win with a deffensive strategy.
If you can't explore the map faster then you're opponents (specially if they are allied), you won't find enouch resources to build and buy at the same rate and you will be smashed, unless you play the battles extremely well.
Well you don't seem to grasp what I'm saying anyway, what I am saying is the only viable way for Tower to get anywhere, I'm not proposing a major strategy in favor of another one, I'm saying what Tower probably would need to do to survive at all. So this isn't a strategy vs strategy, it's "What does Tower have to do to survive at all" and thats a very different thing. You're comparing ingenius strategies up against a faction which can't have an ingenius strategy, and THATS what I'm talking about. And you're trying to make an intellectual score on that, which tells alot about you.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted November 29, 2015 05:35 PM |
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All discussions are interesting and witness people's dedication for the game.
But I think that first hand experience counts a lot, I remember Jolly Joker did an amazing work by creating a GUIDE for every faction, and everything seemed so clear, so detailed back then (just after H3 release).
The problem, after 10 years of multiplayer skirmishes, is that every detail from those guides finally proved to be wrong, or at least veeery flexible and the outcome of the games was very different from his well thoughts and mathematically demonstrated conclusions. And I guess this is also the main reason we still play it, after 4 more or less playable sequels, it is still unpredictable and hard to put in a box or a pattern.
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted November 29, 2015 05:35 PM |
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Laser70 said:
You're comparing ingenius strategies up against a faction which can't have an ingenius strategy, and THATS what I'm talking about. And you're trying to make an intellectual score on that, which tells alot about you.
There can be found a lot of ingenious strategies for Tower in these pages but you presist in pointing a way we know from experience leads to disaster and I am the one "trying to make an intellectual score"?
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This thread is pages long: 
