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Zud
Promising
Famous Hero
box worshipper
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posted July 18, 2001 04:09 PM |
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Dungeon Tidbits
I like using dungeon, for the most part I think you have the best all around groups of units, I just dislike using evil heros thinking of that experince I can't get from an altar and my crap arts. but enuf of that.
If I am playing most toh maps (resourse rich) I always go for dragons week one with just a fort. on many other maps I will play for castle and minotaurs/manticores week one. you can build minotaurs on day 4 usually and then decide by your cash and resources which direction to go those last few days of the week.
The upgrade strats earlier make more sense on 200% difficulty and/or random games. then upgrading your harpies week one can be a good move In general tho I dont start upgrading troops until week 3, my first 2 weeks of building in normal games are aquiring dragons and then getting my economy in place (i.e. building capitol) (this is usually when I also build my silo shae  )and start to either upgrade or build my mage guild hopefully it is upgrading as I have that tower as a secondary town and have already build a mage guild up.
My favorite upgrades are the minotaur and harpy dwelling, medusa gets upgraded fast because it only costs 5 wood in resources, manticores and eyes are also good upgrades. I am probably most hesitant to upgrade my dragons as I can resurect red dragons and not blacks, so I can jump into bigger fights and not worry about losing my precious dragons. I like to make that decision after getting my guilds built up well and in many cases keep the reds if I have res and no good offensive spells (many of you may disagree here)
running around week one with the eyes trogs and harpies is usually a good team to clear a lot of the starting areas of the map (expecially sweet if you get shatki day 1 with 3 stacks of trogs hehe), week 2 I use the dragons on my main and let some secondary guys share the other troops to clear. (chaining is another story)
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Winner or Whiner?
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zsa
Famous Hero
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posted July 18, 2001 04:46 PM |
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The Protection from Fire Problem
Oldtimer has a good idea but remember this :
Mass protection from fire DOESN'T give you immunity to fire , it just haves the damage done by fire spells.
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"You sound like zsa who only plays the game on forums" - Russ
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Ichon
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted July 19, 2001 12:39 AM |
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Anti-magic
You can use BD, GD, and any fast level 7 ot high HP level 7 with anti-magic. As long as you have expert earth you units will be immune. I use it alot if I am playing castle or inferno and get armegeddon somehow. Sometimes also with Stronghold. AA's with 1 or 2 and 5 auxiliary units anti-magic the one unit you want to save- and then when you move first next round cast armegeddon. One or two casts usually destroy most of opponents army so losing a couple of your 7ths isn't that bad to insure safe retreat with your hero.
As for Dungeon in more detail- I agree with Zud's method mostly- I either go directly for dragons or economy week 1&2- so I hardly ever upgrade harpies directly. I usually upgrade minataurs first after medusa because it's most cost effective. Even with harpy hags- those are great vs ground units, but lose alot of #'s against ranged. I'd prefer mk's which hasted can cross the ground in 1 or 2 rounds depending on tactics and unit placement on the battlefield. The resource silo- it depends on the map somewhat, but I almost always got for it as soon as possible, for me that means week 2 almost always. Usually early in week 2 as soon as I have capitol. Or even before capitol if I don't think I'd get capitol for a couple days anyway. The earlier you get silo the better, the longer it takes the less it's worth because you get less resources. I also wait to upgrade blacks until the very last possible time- not only to see what spells I get, but also in case my opponent does something unexpected which I need gold to deal with. That 15,000 gold is better saved until you know it's safe to spend.
6th levels... in many towns I prefer to send them with a 2nd hero which is very strong, my alternate main hero usually- and raid enemy with them. Especially maps with more than 1 town which I have built up. I replace them in my army group with a dif town's 7th or special units. I find it really messes the enemies strategy. Either they must take theiur main away from present tasks like level upping and artifact gathering, or they might make a mistake like just sending a scout with full army to deal with the raider. Then I will probably lose my 6th level units, but I'll do far more damage to their army with a superior hero and spells. Also sometimes with flying and faster units(11 speed or more) I can sometimes devastate one or two of their unit groups and still surrender and retreat with almost all 6th alive. Then I can repeat it and this time guranteed main hero will come to deal with the raider, and knowing that can do something else with my main that I normally might not do.
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Sha_Men
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jack-Of-No-Trades
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posted July 19, 2001 12:58 AM |
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Hmm...My strategy...
Is always defensive counter...
First of all you should create to your head an illusion of different creatures having different powers...It's like magic...Each creature when they move or attack use one spell and the cost of spell how many units you happen to lose...
With dungeon as there are two good shooters, you can sit back and defend. Archery is the skill to look for. Go for the Evil Eyes as quickly as you can but I never buy harpies before I have upgraded them. In early game then can make the difference. As dungeon have pretty good spellcasters you should try to be in the middle rather than heavily into magic or might. Used with dungeon some water spells are cool like mass bless...hmmm, but still I seem to pick up earth magic very often and if you look two of Dungeon heroes, Jeddite and Alamar you don't have to ask why...
When you have your medusas upgraded and get first minotaurs attack early. This is all comes to how much resources you have...I always leave trodgolytes to town and later on also harpies and maybe even evil eyes if I can get troops from other towns.
Minotaur King is your main punishing tool. The Buddies as me and my friend call them make horrifying damage. I use very often Sacrifice Manticore/Save Minotaur combo. This mean that you shouldn't attack early but let enemy come to you and then strike enemies first with Manticores (after ranged units if possible) then with Minotaurs. You will lose big amount of Manticores this way but you will lose them anyway so what there to lose. Minotaurs are much more important to your campaign...
Many find this amuzing but I use Dragons many times same way I use harpies...I wait and try to get them position where they can use that grill effect and at the same time not to danger them too more because in the late game these creatures will surely count...
There are variety of strategies for each town, but as I think Dungeon is one of strongest towns in HoMM3 and you must play lousy if you don't get any success with it.
Just remember to leave those trodgolytes to home...
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Catch the vigorous horse of your mind.
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Ichon
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted July 19, 2001 02:09 AM |
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Ranged and Dungeon
Dungeon is a fairly good ranged town which many seem to forget. Also with eyes immune to blind and medusa equally strong in melee as ranged it's very effective town I agree- the last poster mentioned sacrificing Manticores... well, he then said to leave the trogs at home. I Think manties might not be nearly good 6th level, but they aren't useless. Bring those trogs and sacrifice them. Much more bang for the buck by far!
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Shae_Trielle
Honorable
Famous Hero
of Heroes
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posted July 19, 2001 02:16 AM |
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One of the reasons why...
Dungeon is arguably the best ranged town to choose from. Both third and fourth levels are shooters and neither of them suffer from melee penalties (correct me if I'm wrong on that).
I've never really thought of using the sacrifice spell either, but like Shamen said, any minotaurs you can get are good minotaurs so I wonder how many MKs you can get from sacrificing a typical 200 trogs? It's dependant upon hitpoints isn't it? 200 trogs at 6hp each is 1200hps. Which should equate to an extra 24 minotaur kings. Don't know about you but I reckon that might just tip the balance of the game in your favour (provided the balance was even to start with, LOL!)...
It's great to see so many ideas, I'm learning lots (although I've yet to practice them, lol... anyone want a game with a plebe?)
*smile*
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Oldtimer
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Please leave a message after..
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posted July 19, 2001 04:10 AM |
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If you have expert fire magic, and a spell power of 10 you can sacrifice 200 trogs and get back 104 Minotaur kings, or 28 red dragons.
Sacrifice= (power+ base health+ 10(expert))X Number sacrificed.
200 Infernal trogs cost 13,000
104 Minotaur kings cost 59,800
28 reds cost 70,000
There is a reason sacrifice is top level spell, it might not suck after all.
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<PLEASE DO NOT WAKE THE OLD MAN!>
"Zzzz...Zzzz...Zzzz..."
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Oldtimer
Honorable
Supreme Hero
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posted July 19, 2001 04:16 AM |
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To get back the same 104 minotaur kings you need to sacrifice 52 manticores at a cost of 44,200 gold.
Sacrifice is designed to give you a good use of your 1st level creatures late in the game.
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<PLEASE DO NOT WAKE THE OLD MAN!>
"Zzzz...Zzzz...Zzzz..."
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Ichon
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted July 19, 2001 08:43 AM |
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Yes
Sacrifice is a very nice spell- just remembering when it was also an offensive spell... ohh... *shiver* Then a patch fixed that "bug" Grr... It was surely awesome to sacrifice your opponents 10 Gold Dragons to get back 200 Familiars- just for spite... hehehe. 5th level spell and takin your level 1 unit for his level 7, hahaha- I remember doing that to Anachor one game. Ah man, the rage!
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Sha_Men
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jack-Of-No-Trades
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posted July 20, 2001 01:36 AM |
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Sacrificing...
Someone misunderstood me but ok it led to another subject...
I didn't mean sacrificing literally. I meant that I have often hit with Manticores first and let them take the damage rather than the minotaurs.
And sure you should use sacrifice if you happen to have the spell and low level units that are no use.
However I hardly ever use sacrifice because I concentrate more into different spells. You should use spell every turn in the battle if you have enough spell points but there are many more useful spells than sacrifice.
And the fact is that there are two heroes with resurrection in the dungeon as I mentioned and with expert earth magic they are much better heroes using sacrifice.
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Catch the vigorous horse of your mind.
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Oldtimer
Honorable
Supreme Hero
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posted July 20, 2001 03:28 AM |
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It's all how the cards fall.
If you develop earth magic and have ressurection it's a great way to go, but if you have sacrifice it will save you if you think to use it.
Example: if you have that hero with spell power 10 and you use ressurection you will raise 660 hps or 13 minotaur kings vs sacrificing the 200 trogs to get the 104 minotaur kings back in battle 8 turns before you could raise them by ressurection.
If you are at the end of the battle you wont have the time to use ressurect before the battle is over so you would lose the 91 minotaurs.
The trick is keeping the low level hordes alive long enough to sacrifice at the crucial time.
If you're in the long battle having a necromacer use sacrifice on skelletons to bring back lost death knights or ghost dragons works great especially when you get the skelletons back after the battle.
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<PLEASE DO NOT WAKE THE OLD MAN!>
"Zzzz...Zzzz...Zzzz..."
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Sha_Men
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jack-Of-No-Trades
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posted July 20, 2001 03:42 AM |
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Can you...
use sacrifice into undead troops?
I'm not sure of that...at all.
Can't find the manual right now...
And sure sacrifice is good spell, but you have to sacrifice one unit and this means you may have to keep those trodgolytes with you until they're needed. This will take one slot away from other creatures more useful...Also you can't use sacrifice into same unit twice so it should be only used in the later stages when you really need it.
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Catch the vigorous horse of your mind.
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Ichon
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted July 20, 2001 04:12 AM |
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Sacrifice
Sure, there can be more valuable troops to include, but almost always you will have a large # of level 1, 2 or 3's. it's much better to raise your 15 AD's in one round losing your other troops, then try and struggle along with resurrection. Resurrection is nice, but it's more of a top off spell I think. Lose 25% of troops, raise them etc...If you have to raise a totally dead stack you are likely losing the battle and it's far better to raise it in one turn and for less mana in long run so you can cast offensive spells for the next few rounds rather than casting Resurrection. I'd much rather cast sacrifice and then have more options later. Since some long battles will last about 5-6 rounds before winner is probably clear, that is at least 3 rounds of extra casting since you likely won't lose your 6th or 7th levels first two rounds - it can be very important then getting stuck into casting resurrection every round when your opponent is casting mass slow, mass bless, prayer... etc. I think sacrifice has only totally saved my game about two times, but it's certainly turned battles by a single cast of it more than that. Many times I had resurrection at the same time- I think before the patch you could sacrfice your Trogs, then next round resurrect them and then sacrifice again if you wanted. I beleive with the patch sacrficed troops are no longer able to be resurrected, but I haven't tested that myself recently.
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Oldtimer
Honorable
Supreme Hero
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posted July 20, 2001 04:16 AM |
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The mind wanders..
You are right. you cannot sacrifice undead troops.
Sacrifice is a great insurace policy especially if you are limited in the amount of creatures you have available.
Lets say you have a fast flying troop who always goes in early and really takes the damage. Keeping a stack or two of victims(volunteers if you sweet talk em)to help out the team.
Example: You have 20 manticores(inkeeping with the tread theme) at 1600 hps. Use the manticore to attack a castle and it is taking heavy damage. If you kept two stacks of 62 trogs you could sacrifice twice and your oppoanant would need to kill 60 manties instead of 20.
62 trog cost 4030
20 scorpiacores cost 21,000
What a bargain! The trogs never saw it coming...
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<PLEASE DO NOT WAKE THE OLD MAN!>
"Zzzz...Zzzz...Zzzz..."
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Sha_Men
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jack-Of-No-Trades
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posted July 20, 2001 02:44 PM |
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Very true...
The think is why I hardly ever use it that I don't happen to get it so often. It's fifth level spell and there's only one chance to get per town.
Also it would help to have expert fire magic and I often go for earth magic and another skills than that.
Sacrifice can turn the ties in close ones for sure. If you happen to fight a important fight it's very good to know you have this spell available. However I find Resurrect more efficient when some of my creatures die because this way I don't lose any creatures through the sacrifice.
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Catch the vigorous horse of your mind.
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Thunder
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted July 31, 2001 08:43 PM |
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Dungeon best ranged attacker town?
Shae you are incorrect. The best ranged town is Tower. And Evil Eyes are bad shooters, they cost much and won`t do that much damage (only half of the Grand Elves damage whis is also level 3). Medusas are more reasonable priced. Titans are twice as effective as Medusas or Beholders.
Also Castle is better ranged town than Dungeon. With double-shooting marksmen and 5th level shooter (Zealods) they are second best ranged shooter town (with Rampart, those Grannies really rock! ). Dungeon may be tied with Stronghold.
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Ichon
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted August 01, 2001 12:41 AM |
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Ranged towns...
I think Dungeon is 2nd best ranged town. Castle is the best in my opinion. Tower has too many ranged units. You can't defend them all. Castle is just right balance, with AA's you can hang back and defend, then if opponent takes out the Marksmen or Zealots with spells or other ranged, resurrect them. Champions good roving unit to either attack besieging 7th levels or go see out enemies ranged units. Crusaders aren't that quick so if you position them in between your Zealots and Marksmen good to take out any units trying to get through. Halbierders and Griffons great units for defending Ranged, only Centaurs better, but they are best level 1 anyway. I like the Griffons cause they are 2 hex creatures- blocks your zealots or marksmen totally on one side. Plus the retaliation special... perfect defenders! However, Necro can almost be played as ranged also. If you have alot of Liches or even normal amount and good offensive spells. Guard the Liches with your skeletons. Who wants to come near the first rounds when you have zounds of skeletons? Actually, best town to use Beserk with is Necro. A necro hero with expert fire and earth and only these three spells, beserk, curse, and animate dead will win almost anything.
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Shae_Trielle
Honorable
Famous Hero
of Heroes
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posted September 27, 2001 01:34 AM |
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Dungeon vs Castle
This is undoubtedly one of the more difficult battles that I've faced time and time again and usually I have 50/50 chance of defeating a castle player with similar stats and troop numbers. This is where I think it is vital that you have played your dungeon to it's fullest potential.
Castle is a very very good ranged town. After having thought about it, I would certainly say that ranged versus ranged, the marksmen and zealots are a lot more fearful. With the incredible speed of archs on hand, I find myself stuck between taking the offensive, or waiting for the enemy to run out of patience. I usually make the attack if possible. This is where the ranged units of Castle are let down because as soon as someone takes the initiative and closes for melee on a stack of zealots, they become far less effective as troops. The same goes for marksmen, they suffer penalties with melee combat whereas Evils and Queens do not. The good thing about these troops is that they can dish it out and they can take it. I laugh when someone attacks my medusas with their 7ths and accidentally get turned to stone. For me, not only have they been dealt the equivalent of ranged damage, but I've also taken the enemy a step backward. Now they must either waste a round of spellcasting to free up their 7ths in which case I get a free implosion shot at them, most likely on their 7ths, but my Medusa will also get the chance to attack the 7ths again, with another chance for stone stare.
It will take me two rounds with some half decent troops to wipe out 120 marksmen, and that is with comparitively few losses. They cannot withstand more than a few rounds of sustained combat and if a smart dungeon player targets the castle's ranged units straight away, then there is no reason why they shouldn't win. I think taking the whole lot into account, dungeon has the best ranged units.
*smile*
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Lith-Maethor
Honorable
Legendary Hero
paid in Coin and Cleavage
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posted September 27, 2001 05:51 AM |
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...don't know about you guys
...but I always build my Dungeon (or any other town) to the last building... I always upgrade my army too... for Dungeon, I try to follow that order: Evil Eyes, King Minotaurs, Medusa Queens, Black Dragons, Harpy Hags, Scorpicores and Infernal Troglodytes...
BTW: most of the time I have all four magic schools (and wisdom) at Expert...
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You are suffering from delusions of adequacy.
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Starfox
Tavern Dweller
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posted September 27, 2001 11:32 AM |
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[quoteagain if you wanted. I beleive with the patch sacrficed troops are no longer able to be resurrected, but I haven't tested that myself recently.
I remember good ol' times were you good sacrifice ENEMY units. That was the best 
One strategy I sometimes use. You need to have no ballista. Use mass berserk on enemy units so they attack each other (it's optional) fight as usual then blind the remanining enemy stacks. It's obviously much better when the enemy has 2 or 3 remaining stacks. When they're all blind you can resurrect all your creatures. Of course you need to have lots of mana.
Again, get rid of your balista (cast meteor shower or whatever on it) if not it will shoot at the blinded stack and wake it up.
PS: this blinding/ressurect strategy has only been tested on computer players (the computer almost never dispels blind)
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