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Shae_Trielle
Honorable
Famous Hero
of Heroes
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posted September 27, 2001 11:41 AM |
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Now that's strange! Wow, I know that four schools is pretty impressive to have on a main, but is it at all necessary? I mean to have expert wisdom and proficiency in two schools is in my opinion plenty plenty for a spellcaster. All four schools would take up four slots of your eight secondary skills, which would leave you with wisdom for your fifth slot and thus, three measly slots to try and build a skilled hero. I hazard a guess to say one of those three slots will be logistics and the other two may be offence/armourer and/or archery/tactics. If you ask me, that doesn't sound like a well rounded main. Most half decent players would be able to take out a dungeon main like that any day of the week with minimal spells.
I find it hard to build a magic only Dungeon hero as the race is definitely a magic/might combination. Yet with the Mana Vortex, the focus is not so much on gaining Knowledge stats as it is gaining the all powerful Wisdom points. You can take wisdom 2 out of 3 times and still end up with a hero that has enough spell points to do sustained and continuous round damage. But I think it would be foolish to use dungeon as a magic only race.
*smile*
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Lith-Maethor
Honorable
Legendary Hero
paid in Coin and Cleavage
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posted September 27, 2001 12:10 PM |
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Shae think about that, there are eight slots for secondary skills:
1. Wisdom
2. Earth Magic
3. Air Magic
4. Water Magic
5. Fire Magic
6. Leadership or Sorcery
7. Ressistance or Amorer
8. Diplomacy or Offence
it can be a deadly combination lass... believe me I should know... (three years and only a few defeats... each time i try something different I get my @$$ kicked...
____________
You are suffering from delusions of adequacy.
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Thunder
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted September 27, 2001 04:10 PM |
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Where`s tactics, eh?
1. Wisdom
2. Magic School
3. Magic School
4. Tactics
5. Logistics
6. Resistance
7. What ever u want to put there.
8. Same as in 7.
One thing I found too is that Harpy Hags and Evil Eyes costs more than what they are worth. Same is true for Infernal Troggies and Scorpicores.
And if Evil Eyes are attacked right away they wont meddle long.
And for why Tower is best ranged town. Have u ever tried to arrange fight were there is 2 Titans vs. 8 Medusas and 14 Evil Eyes or 18 Marksmen and 6 Zealots. You know the winner, don`t you? Yes, Titans. And guess the opposite shooters changes if Arch Mages and Master Gremlins are in too.
When you play with Dungeon try to protect your Black Dragons
(especially when you got that Armageddon) and try to save as many minotaurs as possible in longer battles. Take retaliations away with Troggies (they are mostly junk, and immune to blind ability is worthless) and with Scorpicores (they are junk too and there is a good change that you will get enemy troop paralyzed).
Too bad for Dungeon is that there is only 2 creatures dangerous for opponent. You can count the shooters out, they wont do much damage and especially if damage is halved for range. Furthermore medusas special ability wont help until hostile creature is next to them. Harpy Hags wont do much damage without Bless. Troglodytes you can throw for wolwes when you have good change to do so. And Scorpicores are tied to being worst 6th unit with Wywern Monarchs.
Minotaurs are dangerous only damage-wise or speed-wise. They are taken easily out with Champions and Arch Angels alone and maybe little help form Crusaders. Dragons can stand much more damage but they are the main target for the enemy. Attack enemy first round with them and you have done a favour to your opponent. Ancient Behemoths can kill one blackie for every three behemoths if opponent have expert offense. And with Stronghold heroes it is easily achieved.
Castle is the most dangerous opponent for Dungeon. Their units do awfully lot of damage and Arch Angels are faster than Dragons (negating the use of Armageddon). Your main targets in Castle is Arch Angels, Crusaders, Champions and shooters. Crusaders are easily taken out with Black Dragons and minotaurs. So they should be your second target after Arch Angels. And shooters are taken equally easily. But Arch Angels and Champions can stand some damage. If Castle have Clone and Expert Water Magic it is likely that you have already lost the battle. Never storm right away with your dragons in decent battles.
Most difficult opponents for some towns are:
Inferno: Rampart. Because Rampart will most likely resist that Berserk and they have most hit points when you have least of all towns.
Fortress: Necropolis and Tower. Guess where to use Žem Gorgons now? And it`s a long trek to Titans in battle field.
Dungeon: Castle. As already mentioned.
Stronghold: Castle and Rampart. High Damage of Castle units and threat of Mass Haste. Awesome hitpoints of Rampart units, deadly shooters and
Tower: Dungeon. Fast units and Dragon fury. Overlord is far more dangerous than Warlock for Tower.
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Shae_Trielle
Honorable
Famous Hero
of Heroes
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posted September 30, 2001 03:05 PM |
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Lith and Thunder
First of all, I'm not your frickin' lass, so stop calling me girly names, okay chum? 
Secondly, can anyone ever tell me instances where, as a dungeon player, they have been offered ALL FOUR schools of magic? Unless you visit a map site, getting all four schools is next to impossible. You must honestly play the same map over and over and over again. I'd like to see you pull four magic schools with expert wisdom out of the bag on a random map.
Thirdly, not too often to dungeon players get the offer of diplo. It is not a dungeon skill, it gets offered only in the rarest of circumstances, probably only slightly better than getting four magic schools.
Most common skills offered for dungeon:
TACTICS
OFFENCE
ARMOUR
BALLISTICS
ARCHERY
LOGISTICS
EARTH MAGIC
WISDOM
PATHFINDING
SCOUTING
ESTATES
FIRE MAGIC
SORCERY
Where do I see water and air magic and diplomacy thrown in there?
Thunder, your assesment of Evil Eyes was rather rash. Ask any dungeon player and it is usually the Medusa which are the first ranged unit to go and by the time you've managed to deal enough damage to a throng of Evil Eyes, the battle is well and truly into it's final stages. It is not unusual for me to be left with minotaur kings, evils and a few dragons at the end of a successful battle with an enemy main. And harpies, probably the most annoying second level units around, are fantastic once hasted, and if you're lucky enough to have 200+ hags, then they are great for first strikes against level 7s. They can easily take out on or two 7s, which is a free hit mind you. Tell me of another unit which will get a free shot at your level 7s on the first round of play.... Throw in an Evil and Medusa queen attack and a nice spell and their level 7s can be pretty much decimated, all before you even move your own dragons in for a strike. Mind you, by then, you won't even waste any more effort on killing off the remaining ones. You use your strikes now to take out weaker ranged units and wait for your own retaliation to finish off the enemy 7s over a period of rounds...
*smile*
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Lith-Maethor
Honorable
Legendary Hero
paid in Coin and Cleavage
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posted September 30, 2001 05:44 PM |
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what can I say lass?
I'm lucky... although I don't get diplomacy very often (about 60% of times) I rarely am without 3 or 4 magic magic schools (about 90%) ...sometimes I even choose pathfinding, if I don't have an artifact to do the job...
ok, I promise not to call you lass again... (don't take it personally, I call "lass" any girl I know) 
BTW: Evil Eyes can take way more damge than they can dish out...
____________
You are suffering from delusions of adequacy.
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Thunder
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted September 30, 2001 07:07 PM |
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Well, lass (I called you Shae, is that girly name?), Im little confused what you had just said.
You said it`s hard to get Air Magic with Dungeon heroes, despite that you are speaking of hasting Harpies. Well, if you don`t have expert air magic would you cast single haste on harpies so that you could attack opponent`s sevenths? I would not. If those Harpy Hags are numerous enough to kill two seventh level creatures there may have be many 7th level creatures in battle. Second those Harpy Hags are quite costly unit (170gp, if I remember right) as are Evil Eyes. Neither of them aren`t bad units tough. Just over costly. Bless will increase your Harpies damage ratings alot. But in serious battle situation you won`t cast it without Expert Water Magic.
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StormWarning
Promising
Famous Hero
Archmage of Thunder
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posted October 01, 2001 11:36 PM |
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Portal of Summoning
Early in a game my friend saw a Faerie Dragon lair. He was playing as Dungeon. He did not flag any creature dwellings, then as soon as he could he took on the Faerie Dragon lair. He found two or three more Dungeons and built Portals of Summoning in all. Thanks to several Gem Ponds and an income of about 10k a day, by the middle of month 3 he had 20 Faerie Dragons.
Ouch.
If you find a super-Dragon lair before you get any other creature dwellings, then don't flag anything else, just get the super-Dragon and if your income is enough, you will utterly slaughter anyone in a few weeks.
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The calm before the storm is about to end.
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pluvious
Promising
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 02, 2001 08:29 AM |
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Yo Ash and Thunder...I know you enjoy double-teaming poor Shae but she is really wooping your behinds. Ash you mentioned skills to take and didn't mention logistics so right away people will see you for an amateur. No offensce just fact. And four magic skills is pointless. Why would you want water with Dungeon? Three maybe, but not four.
And Thunder, you say there are only 2 dungeon units which are dangerous for your opponent? That is a very peculiar generalization. Any unit can be dangerous. Yes, minotaurs and dragons are the best. So? Each town has units that are really good and some that are limited. For stronghold behemoths and rocs and ogres could be said to be best. For necropolis maybe vamps and knights. But to disregard the stoning of medusas or the fact that scorpicores are still level 6 units (yes weak level 6...but still more dangerous than lower level units in other towns) is foolish. Maybe it was just the way you worded things but you were arguing against Shae...and I didn't catch the point you were attempting to make at all.
By the way when you are discussing skills you should keep in mind the difference between overlords and warlocks and also remember that each hero starts with a certain skill that you must take...so picking 8 skills is a little optimistic (understatement). You will be lucky if you get the 6 skills you want most...let alone 8.
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...Pluvious...
-The Storm Before the Calm-
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Lith-Maethor
Honorable
Legendary Hero
paid in Coin and Cleavage
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posted October 02, 2001 10:17 AM |
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woa there!!!!
I'm an amateur just because I never (or very rarely) choose logistics? it just doesn't work for me... the fact that my playing style does not match yours (or that of most people) doesn't make me an amateur... I've been playing HoMM3 since it came out!!! I may not be the best HoMM player but I am no amateur...
you say water magic is obsolete with dungeon? let me prove you wrong... to my knowledge, the most common win requirement is to capture all enemy towns / slay all heroes.. when you capture an enemy town you also capture it's mage guild ... unless all town in the map are Dungeons, and there are no magic shrines around, water magic can be very helpfull...
BTW: I'm not Ash NIR anymore... it's Lith Maethor now...
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You are suffering from delusions of adequacy.
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Shae_Trielle
Honorable
Famous Hero
of Heroes
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posted October 02, 2001 10:57 AM |
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I'm just wondering as is Pluvious, whether your actual 'dungeon' strategies are just general strategies you use for all races. Is that the case Ash Maethor?
If that is the case and you are broadbanding one single strategy into every race type you choose, then no wonder you're not one of the best HoMM players around. You gotta understand that certain skills are designed for use with certain races and if you wanna get really nitty, then some of them are designed for use against particular units...
Pluvious spoke the truth when he said that your blatant disregard for something like Logistics (which is held in such high esteem by all that certain players have rules which 'ban' such skills) does hint at a lack of specific tactics. Your choice too of all four magic skills tells most that you're a magic player, which in my opinion is another flaw. With such a heavy emphasis on magic, I take it that you're a weak builder. With no logistics on your main either, you'd probably be hard pressed to visit all local stat boosters before the enemy strikes. Which would mean that (and I'm purely speculating here, I've never played Ash Maethor) you end up with a low stat, small armied magician with spells to the teeth. Spells don't always work the way you intended them too and chances are the enemy has just enough in their 'specialized' magic school to have you cursing blue murder. Add to that their superior might and better overall stat scores and.... yes. You do come off as an amateur unfortunately.
LOL I just remembered that I'm an AMATEUR TOO! LMAO!
For someone who's been playing HoMM3 since it's release, I'd think that you'd know a hell of a lot better Ash.
*smile*
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Lith-Maethor
Honorable
Legendary Hero
paid in Coin and Cleavage
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posted October 02, 2001 11:12 AM |
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didn't know you knew Sindarin...
of course I also missed that you are a worthy opponent... yes I DO use that layout for most races... (80% of the times I play with Rampart...) that can be my undoing in a game with a skilled opponent but it can also be my savior in a battle against an unskilled or a mediocre one...
as for being a magic player...
by the end of week 2, most of the buildings are done, my economy is thriving, and I'm a (little) short on army...at the beggining i rely mostly on magic but the endgame battles are fought with a massive army (all 7 levels upgraded) and 50 or more blackies watching my hero(e)s back(s)
after all the game is Heroes of Might AND Magic...
...may Elbereth be with you...
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You are suffering from delusions of adequacy.
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Shae_Trielle
Honorable
Famous Hero
of Heroes
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posted October 02, 2001 11:44 AM |
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Who's Sindarin? Is that like Mandarin? Sorry, I can only speak Hakka.
LOL. So why the hell are you posting your Rampart strategies in a Dungeon strategy thread? Isn't there a rampart strategy thread somewhere around here?
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Lith-Maethor
Honorable
Legendary Hero
paid in Coin and Cleavage
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posted October 02, 2001 12:53 PM |
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Quenya Language of the High Elves of Middle Earth
Sindarin Language of the Gray Elves of Middle Earth
...since I use the same (almost) strategy for Dungeon, doesn't it qualify to be on this thread?
____________
You are suffering from delusions of adequacy.
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Thunder
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted October 02, 2001 04:05 PM |
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Pluvious, I wasn`t teamed with Lith. Actually my second post in this topic was about those skills proving Lith`s speculations were wrong.
And I wasn`t saying that Dungeon sucks without Dragons and Minotaurs, right?
I said that there is only two good units and those were Minotaurs and outstanding Dragons. I didn`t said that any troops were completely bad. Medusas and Harpy Hags are little above average creatures, while Evil Eyes, Scorpicores and Trogs are little belove average.
Yes, Scorpicores ability can be bothersome but with only 80 hp and low defence they aren`t quite durable and can`t stand much damage. Troglodytes are good for taking retalitions and you might have good horde of them in late game, but especially Infernal Troglodytes are quite costly and both of them are only average 1st level creatures. Luckily your heroes, mainly Overlords, comes with good number of them so you can start taking out mines early on first day.
Dungeon have some of the best heroes in game.
Overlords: Gunnar (Superior choice due to logistics), Dace, that hero with special in Troglodytes and that who gives gold.
Warlocks: Resurrection heroes (Alamar, Jeddite), Crystal Hero and Meteor Shower hero.
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Shae_Trielle
Honorable
Famous Hero
of Heroes
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posted October 03, 2001 02:53 AM |
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Woooooooo
You listed some pretty crappy Heroes there Thunder! Sephinroth? Her specialty with +1 crystal? Does that make her a good hero?
LOL
Now Gunnar is an obvious choice for anyone, seeing as he's one of the few people with Logistics skills. Dace, well he is most certainly worthy as a main, but let's not forget that his specialty with Minotaurs may not be entirely necessary. Minotaurs are, as you said, one of the better units that Dungeon has to fight with. They are durable and deal stacks of damage, so does that mean that a hero like Dace is the best of choices?
You say that Manticores are weak level 6's and in my opinion, to have a level 6 unit that is generally considered weak, is a great flaw in your army. One of the things that I sometimes do to throw opponents off is to try and get Synca as a main. His specialty with Manticores usually will allow you to boost your Manticore speed by +1 (they're quick enough as it is), but what's more is that with a level 12 hero (common enough even on a medium with no under) will have manticores With stats of 17 and 15 for attack and defence, which most certainly brings them up to line for other level 6s and that's not including other variables like a heroes attack and defence being added to that. If a game is long enough, level 18 is easily achievable, which gives you manticores with 18/16. Serpicores have stats of 19/17 for attack and defence. And lets not forget that on some maps, especially experience rich maps and XL ones, level 24 is a feasible feat for a main hero. How do Serpicores with stats of 20/18 sound? Not so weak with a hero like Synca are they?
I've never used Sephinroth as a main, she's only good for a secondary. Lets face it, crystals aren't the core resource for Dungeon. They're only good for a bit of money.
Shakti.... ummmm, now there's an interesting one. Perhaps not my first choice for a main, but I think you've tried to apply the same logic that a Necro player would use with a skeleton army. Trogs are weak, let's not doubt that and their only specialty is worthless against every other unit except Unicorns (and not even a newbie would try and blind trogs, lol). Trogs usually form most of my cannon fodder for the early mine-gathering battles that I have and so generally, come the later stages of the game, my trogs are in pretty bad shape. They're usually only upgraded if I'm really really bored. Against most other units in the game, 200 trogs would be lucky to last beyond the first melee strike, which makes them rather useless. I'd prefer to use the trog slot for some complimentary level 6s or 7s. If you've got good morale, then using a foreign unit will still allow your minotaurs to have high morale attacks every other round (a real killer against low morale enemies). So Shakti is only useful in the early stages of the game for me. After that, I toss him aside, which means that I have a half experienced scout with a few measly skills and a specialty with a few trogs. I'd most likely use him for visiting creature dwellings and chaining to my main.
*smile*
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Thunder
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted October 03, 2001 07:38 PM |
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Shae_Trielle.......
..... I didn`t listed those heroes as a main I just listed some good heroes. Even a good secondary hero is a good hero, right?
And for Synca....
What was her secondary skills again she starts with?
And, by the way, check this link:
http://www.h3trio.com/strategy_d.html
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The_Gootch
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Kneel Before Me Sons of HC!!
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posted October 11, 2001 01:03 AM |
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I know I'm gonna raise some hackles with this one...ressurection and tactics are overrated. I don't even bother with those two anymore. Why? Because with resurrection, any enterprising opponent would concentrate on a stack and then stand a unit on it to prevent resurrection. Invariably, it would be your red dragons, your scorpicores, and most definitely your Minotaur Kings. After that resurrection cannot keep up with the lower level units being demolished because of their lower attack and defense scores.
As for Tactics, yes, come closer to me. Arrange your army in its pretty little formation. Get your Minotaur kings within a one-turn striking range. Bah! What a waste of a skill. Unfortunately, it comes with the 2nd and 3rd best hero available for that town; Gunnar and Shakti. Why start with Shakti? First week trogs of course. You can guarantee yourself a hero more to your liking by the beginning of week 2, but grab him for that army. Or...you can go with old reliable...Gunnar(only for his logistics). If you insist on a spell-caster go with Malekith or what's-his-face?(specialty meteor shower and pray your opponent doesn't have the recanter's cloak). Dungeon is a very powerful town, only eclipsed IMHO, by the Castle. In the grand scheme of things it has the most balanced troops, even with the low 80 hit points of the scorpicore.
Strategy...attack, attack, attack. Shakti's little legion of naties the first week just about guarantees you control of whatever mines you need your first week. Gunnar will take you far, and Malekith combining his specialty with his obscene power will find some spell to blow away the enemy with. Lastly, if I can recollect, Warlocks and Overlords can't even get water magic with the exception of a witch's hut. It never comes naturally and the university always has it in the red.
_________________________
"Many will dislike what I have to say--but only few will not heed it."
The Gootch
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zsa
Famous Hero
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posted October 11, 2001 05:37 AM |
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Wrong Gootch, wrong!
First of all, Warlocks can get Water Magic, even if not to often.
Second , don't mean to be rude, but how can you say ressurection is overrated. It is a good spell one of the best 4th lvl spells.
Third, I mean, if your tactic of killing a whole stack and standing on it would work don't you think everybody will use it? How do you know you are always going to kill that entire stack. If you haven't you did a big big mistake!!
How do you know you will be able to atack with all the troops?
I do not think tactics is awesome but it is a very useful skill sometimes.
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Shae_Trielle
Honorable
Famous Hero
of Heroes
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posted October 11, 2001 11:13 AM |
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Well, most smart players never allow things to get to the stage where they lose an entire stack if they have resurrection for a start. And if you are dumb enough to not ressurect anything until it's well and truly dead, then you're getting pretty desperate or you're wasting your spells.
What Gootch has said though is a fantastic idea, I don't know why I never thought of something so obviously...ummm... OBVIOUS before! LOL! Stand on a dead stack! There's your ressurrection!
Tactics is an overrated skill and I will always try and avoid choosing it for want of something better, but if I'm stuck with it, I usually try and put it to good use. it's really nice to be able to place a stack of hags in a cul-de-sac and use their flying/no r-strike ability to take out slow ground movers (re: Fortress). Minotaur Kings, if used with Dace, are able to get straight into the melee in the first round and have the ability to destroy whole stacks if they get the first punch in. Back them up with your other units in the first round and you'll find that being able to attack the enemy from the word go (even a defensive player) will give you a big advantage. If you have the ability to strike at them with 90 percent of your troops during the first round, then the enemy will be far less likely to 'wait' and your close proximity often causes them to do foolish things.
*smile*
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Sha_Men
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jack-Of-No-Trades
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posted October 11, 2001 11:27 AM |
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I have said my part...
Of Dungeon strategy earlier as I always use ranged tactics with Dungeon.
For some towns like Dungeon Tactics isn't really important skill. But for Fortress I have find it to be almost essential. When I get Armorer and Tactics for Fortress I usually can kick some...
But...as said I usually use "wait" with Dungeon as I find it ranged down that can be there waiting for attacks. Don't really remember have I ever found tactics to be so good with Dungeon. I bet...not.
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Catch the vigorous horse of your mind.
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