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Vadskye91
Promising
Supreme Hero
Back again
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posted April 14, 2004 07:18 PM |
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Same here
I'm going to off for a while. You're going to have to save their souls alone Fenix.
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Knowledge is power...
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Lord_Woock
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Daddy Cool with a $90 smile
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posted April 14, 2004 07:18 PM |
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What is it like when he answers? Do you hear his voice or something? Or maybe it's just you hoping for an answer so much that you're starting to halucinate?
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Yolk and God bless.
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My buddy's doing a webcomic and would certainly appreciate it if you checked it out!
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted April 14, 2004 07:19 PM |
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But he benevolently gave us free will. And I told that my opinion is that He interferes, but not always. God's wisdom chooses when to interfere, and when not.
It's an interesting wisdom that permitted 6 million people to be slaughtered on the whim of a bunch of madmen. Or indeed an interesting wisdom that inflicted the variety of ailments on the world that lead with the genocidal tendencies of the europeans and americans to the decimation of the North American Indian peoples. You will note that both of these were done either with Church permission or the Church turning a blind eye. I'm sure there's other examples.
Frankly there's precious little sense in the theory of an all knowing, all powerful and benevolent god to me. I could accept the theory that god is benevolent but not the other two, that means God is probably sitting up there either mightily annoyed or very sad with us all (most likely both). I could accept the theory that he's all knowing/powerful, but to accept both of those is to accept that he knew when this began what would come of free will. To me, to continue despite knowing that human flaws would cause events like above is not really benevolent. Of course the other defense could be that he's all three, and our lame human brains will never truly understand his motives and therefore can never understand his benevolence. I don't buy that though, I find it hard to love, respect or worship someone like that.
Oh and free will is an interesting argument, but that to me is like a mother abandonning the child she brought into the world. Worse than that, abandonning it without clear guidance on how to live or clear support. Free will's fun, but flawed.
Oh and I'm an agnostic, not an athiest, and yes there is a difference 
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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Fenix
Known Hero
In ranks of Nebwoocka Alliance
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posted April 14, 2004 07:23 PM |
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No, you know it when a miracolous thoing happens.
You also feel His affect on you in sacrament of...I don't know it on English. The one when you take Body of Christ. Perhaps in Polish is like in Croatian- pricest. Nothing special, nothing glamorous, you just feel in a special way. Feel like you're with your best friend and you don't need anything else
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Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted April 14, 2004 07:23 PM |
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And I told that my opinion is that He interferes, but not always. God's wisdom chooses when to interfere, and when not.
 That one is called UPD: Unknown Purpose Defense. But not knowing the purpose, thereīs no way for you to tell that "godly wisdom" from
- foolishness
- coincidence
- malevolence
- indifference
- ...
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Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted April 14, 2004 07:28 PM |
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Yes, He did many times. He wouldn't ofcourse answer me if I aksed HIm to give me a car, but He helps in uselfish prayers, like for very sick people. He is also spurce of my internal strength
So you think that when a person is very sick and suffering, godīs decision of whether to help or not does depend on peopleīs praying for that person?
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Fenix
Known Hero
In ranks of Nebwoocka Alliance
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posted April 14, 2004 07:31 PM |
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Alright, I'm fed up. This doesn't lead nowhere. Whe've been here for an hour, and the next thing that would happen is that we will take arms and kill each other.
Of course it's difficult to understand God, in other way we would be gods. Only thing you can do it's try to understand. But you seem to be wiser than God, and who am I to challenge your arguments? I'm gonna ask God why didn't He done it your way.
OK, allknowing people, how was the world created then? How to explain the miracles, the Jesus Christ (alright, you don't believe in Him) etc.
Explain to me. Seems like you have an answer on everything. Truly an sign of godlike creature!
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Khaelo
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Underwater
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posted April 14, 2004 07:36 PM |
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Edited By: Khaelo on 14 Apr 2004
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Quote:
No, you know it when a miracolous thoing happens.
You also feel His affect on you in sacrament of...I don't know it on English. The one when you take Body of Christ. Perhaps in Polish is like in Croatian- pricest. Nothing special, nothing glamorous, you just feel in a special way. Feel like you're with your best friend and you don't need anything else
The sacrament, in English, is known as Communion or Eucharist.
The feeling, in certain pagan circles, is known as Unverified Personal Gnosis. That is, "I believe what I believe because of a personal experience that I can't prove to anyone else" (citation from here, post 5). While it is accepted as valid evidence for an individual, it is not sufficient to convince others. Good for you if you believe in the Christ, but you're not going to convert me because Communion is special to you.
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 Cleverly
disguised as a responsible adult
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Fenix
Known Hero
In ranks of Nebwoocka Alliance
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posted April 14, 2004 07:39 PM |
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While it is accepted as valid evidence for an individual, it is not sufficient to convince others. Good for you if you believe in the Christ, but you're not going to convert me because Communion is special to you.
Didn't ment to be. It stands for myself, I know it can't convince you, because it wouldn't convince me if I was on your side.
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted April 14, 2004 07:42 PM |
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Only thing you can do it's try to understand.
Human attempts to understand god are woefully destructive and innacurate, witness the writings of the Bible and Koran for example. I'm intruiged to know that if god wished us to follow his word why he could not have provided a clearer book to follow it in.
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But you seem to be wiser than God, and who am I to challenge your arguments?
I'm an agnostic, as far as I'm concerned, I have no clue as to what god is either like or wants from us as I've not yet seen evidence to prove any theory either way so far. I do believe that the christian theory on god is quite a way off the mark when compared to their claim of all knowing, all loving and so on though.
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OK, allknowing people, how was the world created then?
I don't know. I doubt it was done in 7 days, and science has yet to say either way. So far none of the religious explanations I have ever read made enough sense to me that's why I don't follow their religion.
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How to explain the miracles, the Jesus Christ (alright, you don't believe in Him) etc.
Oh there could be many explanations to be frank, amongst them that the bible/gospels are a work of mostly fiction, Jesus was somehow either an alien (not little green man alien, just from a more advanced planet than ours) or time traveller, that the stories were blown out of all proportion, eg he never "died" on the cross, he went unconcious (not quite the term I want, but there is a theory put forward on this) and so on. Bear in mind the thousands of faith healers and other miracle workers of our own generation and that have existed since, many of whom have no connection to christianity at all. Are they candidates for worship as the son of god also?
I actually don't know what the truth is, and since no Deity has ever chosen to prove it either way I don't suspect I will ever know the truth, no more than you can prove the events are true, but only have faith in them. Faith is a singular person thing though.
And as I said, Agnostics tend to have no answers, they are looking for them, and what they have seen so far has not answered the questions they have asked to their satisfaction.
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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Fenix
Known Hero
In ranks of Nebwoocka Alliance
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posted April 14, 2004 07:45 PM |
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You cannot call Bible a fiction because many historical documents and reports of Roman Empire confirm its facts.
Also, Jewish history is in first part of it. History of a nation can hardly be classified as "fiction"
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Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted April 14, 2004 07:47 PM |
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Quote:
Alright, I'm fed up. This doesn't lead nowhere. Whe've been here for an hour, and the next thing that would happen is that we will take arms and kill each other.
Firstly I am a much too peaceful person to do such a thing, and secondly thereīs no need for this anyway because my arguments are working fine, thanks.
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Of course it's difficult to understand God, in other way we would be gods. Only thing you can do it's try to understand.
Which, according to your logic, would mean: Try to be gods  ?
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But you seem to be wiser than God, and who am I to challenge your arguments? I'm gonna ask God why didn't He done it your way.
Yes, please.
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OK, allknowing people, how was the world created then?
How do you know that the word has been created at all? I for myself have the honesty to admit that I do not know what caused the Big Bang, if a Big Bang happened at all.
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How to explain the miracles, the Jesus Christ
Nothing easier than that. The miracles of Jesus Christ all appear in myths that are much older than Christianity. Some names of these saviors who supposedly were born by virgins, walked over water, silenced the storms, made water to wine, resurrected the dead, were crucified, ascended to heaven afterwards, etc.: Asklepios, Dionysos, Herakles, Mithras, Pythagoras.
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Vadskye91
Promising
Supreme Hero
Back again
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posted April 14, 2004 07:48 PM |
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Quote:
Aside from the omni-God issues, what arguments from Mere Christianity are supposed to be particularly convincing? I read that book, and it failed to convert me, so I'd like to challenge that statement way back on page 1...
 If that failed to convince you, I don't know what will. I do reccomend the Problem of Pain as well, that is mainly conserning free will and how a loving god can exist in a world with so much pain.
I think that believing in God is a major yet hard to reach step, but if you truly believe you will understand. You don't need to know everything. In fact, that won't help much at all. Just have faith. I doubt I could convert any of you with this arguement, but it's what I believe.
Oh, regarding the prayer issue, you don't (or at least I don't) get any kind of confirmation except for the fact that it happens or it doesn't. I think that's what makes it so real. You can imagine being talked to by God, but you wouldn't imagine not getting talked to. Thus, it's true.
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Knowledge is power...
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Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted April 14, 2004 07:53 PM |
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Quote:
You cannot call Bible a fiction because many historical documents and reports of Roman Empire confirm its facts.
Historical science also proves alot of biblical content to be wrong. King Herodes for example was dead already when Jesus supposedly was born. And there was no rule that on the day of the passah feast, a prisoner was freed. And the 30 pieces of silver that Judas was said to have received for his betrayal where not a currency at that time. (Just to name a few.)
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Fenix
Known Hero
In ranks of Nebwoocka Alliance
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posted April 14, 2004 07:53 PM |
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How do I know that world is created at all??????
Hmmm...Let me think for a second...I really don't know.
Seems like you're not convinced that world exists.
Or you support the theory that world has always existed.
Why shouldn't the God then exist before beginning of the world?
Stephen Hawking, Steven Weinberg and other physicists some things explain only by God. And they are among leading experts in quantum physics
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Khaelo
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Underwater
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posted April 14, 2004 07:54 PM |
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Edited By: Khaelo on 14 Apr 2004
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Oops! Hi, Vadskye. I thought you'd left.
I deleted the part of my post you quoted because there really isn't a place for me in this debate. C.S. Lewis doesn't address the position of a polytheist, probably because there weren't many in his world. The vast majority of these arguments between monotheists and atheists assume a definition of "god" that doesn't jive with that of a polytheist (all those "omnis"...). So, after being assured that Fenix wasn't attempting to use UPG as external evidence for a monotheist god, I've withdrawn.
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Vadskye91
Promising
Supreme Hero
Back again
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posted April 14, 2004 07:54 PM |
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I noticed your post seemed shorter! And what's polytheism? Mixing up different religions into one? If so, then I guess you would be kind of left out of CS's literature.
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Knowledge is power...
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Fenix
Known Hero
In ranks of Nebwoocka Alliance
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posted April 14, 2004 07:56 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
You cannot call Bible a fiction because many historical documents and reports of Roman Empire confirm its facts.
Historical science also proves alot of biblical content to be wrong. King Herodes for example was dead already when Jesus supposedly was born. And there was no rule that on the day of the passah feast, a prisoner was freed. And the 30 pieces of silver that Judas was said to have received for his betrayal where not a currency at that time. (Just to name a few.)
I will check that. But Jesus isn't supossed to be born on 0. year. That was mistake did by Dionisius Exiguus.
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted April 14, 2004 07:59 PM |
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Quote:
You cannot call Bible a fiction because many historical documents and reports of Roman Empire confirm its facts.
Also, Jewish history is in first part of it. History of a nation can hardly be classified as "fiction"
Note that I said it "Could be", I was suggesting a situation to explain Jesus' miracles. And yes, I can call parts of it to be fiction. I don't believe the world to be less than 4000 years old, which whilst the bible never says this it does give the reasoning for. I don't believe the bible when it claimes Noah built the ark and put all the animals in it. I find those parts and others to be fiction. That doesn't mean the rest cannot be true. If I wrote a 10,000 page book on the history of WWII, and put in say 10 select battles to complete accuracy, would that garuntee without a doubt that the other 30 odd I comment on are also totally accruate? Each story, each book and each part of the bible and books relating to history must be judged seperately. Confirming that Jesus lived does NOT confirm that he walked on water. Knowing that Jehrico fell down near the time claimed in the bible does not prove it was the work of prayer. And Also a history of a nation can be classified as fiction, I've seen many histories of the US written in the UK that wash over the Native side and view of things, that to me is fiction. On the contary, I would claim that national histories are MORE prone to fiction and embelishment of the facts due to pride, nationalism and bias. Just because Roman history can prove SOME of the bible does not mean it proves all of the bible. History cannot prove dogma and faith based issues like miracles.
I don't say that all of them are false, however to say they must be true based on loose Roman accounts is stretching the imagination to breaking point.
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted April 14, 2004 08:04 PM |
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Stephen Hawking, Steven Weinberg and other physicists some things explain only by God. And they are among leading experts in quantum physics
Firstly the argument of authority is well-known to be a fallacy.
And secondly, the large majority of physicists and biologists does not believe in a personal god. I donīt know about Weinberg, but Hawking is certainly not a Christian. When physicists talk about god, they usually mean that in the pantheist sense. Hereīs a quote from Einstein on that matter:
It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.
Source: Albert Einstein: The Human Side
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