|
|
frostwolf
Famous Hero
livin' in a bottle of vodka
|
posted April 18, 2004 10:30 PM |
|
|
First, I just want to say that Milena's post is based more or less on etymology. You reject the term of atheist and but use other names(UU); I just want to remind you that philosophical matters should not be commented using arguments of etymologycal nature. There are atheists, people who don't belive in the existence of divinty, or a higher power, or creative force, not to mention heaven/hell, life after death, judgement day and so on. I am one of these people. I belive that everything happens by chance. There is no guideing force, no arranged events. It is all randomly happening, needing no catalyst or cause. The is even a part of ancient greek philosophy that deals with this, I can' remember who founded it, but one of the main ideeas is that everything simply happened, by random chance. Anyway yours was still a very good post and you brought solid arguments (as usual), and I agree with you in some points, especialy about the absurd character of the church(good example with the candles)
Now, as I mentioned above, I don't belive in any form of divinity, I'm not part of any group, as I am a ferm beliver that everything is based on chance, and each event at the genesis randomly happened. I am a historian, but I think it is useless to give examples of the many crimes commited in the name of religion, as the question is not about the church or other forms of divine representation on earth.
Sorry, i have to go now, I leave my post unfinished, but I'll return and finish it as soon as I can
P.S-Milena excellent post.
____________
What can you expect from a world where everybody lives because they're too afraid to commit suicide?
|
|
Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
|
|
posted April 19, 2004 02:43 AM |
|
|
Khaelo and others,
I'm not 100% sure about the truth, but from what I've seen on films, documentaries and the teaching of my national religion (Orthodox Christianity), they all agree that the only path for salvation of our soul is through faith in Jesus as the son of God.
And if i'm not mistaken, the Protestants and Martin Luther also held this theory. They, in a way, opposed the Catholics, who insisted on doing "good" deeds (in fact, listening to what the church says) so that you can go to heaven. Martin Luther moved the focus from the deeds to the faith.
Otherwise, wouldn't Christ's coming on Earth would be for nothing? He died so that he can save us. He took upon him the sins of men. He is our chance of eternal life. That's why the church says that with Christ we can beat death and have nothing to fear. They say that those who lived before Him, won't go to heaven when the Final Judgement comes. (and hence, Dante puts them in the first circle.) Now, some say, they won't go to hell either, but will only disappear. But the point is, their good deeds won't save their souls.
At least that's what i know.
and frostwolf, by attacking the church, i just want to point out that religion is not only unnessecary, but also harmful. But i agree that we shouldn't focus on that. :-)
____________
The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
|
|
Shirastro
Famous Hero
Happy happy joy joy
|
|
posted April 19, 2004 03:21 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Atheist.
This word puts me to shame.
There is no such thing as an atheist.
I have seen so many 'witty' comments about Milena being an atheist or a heretic or whatever. It pains me to see that there are so many 'witty' people over there and so much ignorance floating around them. Just that you know, peeps, Milena is -not- an atheist. Actually, I'm very deeply religious and I've never denied that.
There are over 30 major religions in the world. Just a few of them are the three main wings of Christianity, the Quakers (who has wings as well), Islam, Buddhism, New Age, neopagan, Secular Humanism, Judaism, Wicca and I'm not even going into Mormons, Witnesses of Jehova, scientology and I don't know what.
There is a very deep and general misconception that if you believe in God, you're a Christian, Muslim or maybe a buddhist. If you don't believe in God, you're an atheist.
B.S. Do you know how that spells? B-U-L-L-S-H-I-T.
If you compare ALL religions, you are going to see that ALL of them stem from one and the same thing. They all start with the creation of the world. Judaism, Christianity, Islam: they all offer a GODLY creation of the universe. The Jews call that creative force "Jehova", Muslims call it "Allah" and so on. Well, if you look at it strictly, you HAVE to admit that they obviously talk about one and the same force. The name and oomph are always different but in the end, it's about the same thing that wa created! For clarification, there are religions who DENY the godly origins of the universe. Take Secular Humanism. The Seculars deny the existence of supernatural forces and believe that all is explained by means of science. For them, the world was created with the big BOOM BANG. Now, don't ask me for the deepest details, I'm not a SH but you got the picture I hope. This is the main credo of the SH: "To promote and defend reason, science, and freedom of inquiry in all areas of human endeavor."
(I'm sure that someone will bang me on the head for calling SH and some others 'religions'. Faiths, lifestances, lifebeliefs, this is what religion is in its essense after all.)
Now, you've got to admit that we take for granted that the world exists and there must be SOME source of its creation. I personally choose to call it 'god' and I do regard god as this: as the initial source of the universe. However, I find the classical "white beard angry old man" quite ridiculous.
There are a row of other religions that are quite different and a lot of them are quite the non-aggressive, non-intruding type of thing. A lot of people fall to these, it's only that they do not KNOW that someone already has a faith/religion to fit their personal tastes. Before I discovered my religion, I thought that I was agnostic (I just avoid the world atheist). I didn't believe in God the way that the Orthodox bulgarians do, I disdain icons and I loathe the hypocricy of the church. Oh, I can feel a wave of repudiation coming from you. I'll give you a very recent example that DISGUSTED me to no end. It's SICKENING for me.
I was Friday just before Easter. I went with my friend to the local Orthodox church - there is a small ritual that I find pretty (passing under a table). On the door of the church there was a notice: "you should buy candles from only inside the church! If bought outside, God won't hear your prayers and they are in vain…."
Sick, I felt SICK. Truth faith and love of God does not come with a candle, does not come with feeding the fat throats of obese clergymen…. True faith does not come with kissing icons and the doors of the church….
I'm proud to be the bright follower of a bright religion. Do I believe in God? Maybe I do but that's not important and not essential to me if there is one. Yeah, all hail the creator of the universe cause without that, we wouldn't enjoy the beauty of the world and I'm grateful that there are so many lovely things to behold and experience. But sit on my ass and pray 5 times a day and beg for my life… hell. That's nonsense to ME.
I'm Unitarian Universalist. The religion started in the 14th-15th c. in Transylvania, Rumania and since then has moved west. I won't elaborate much on it. I'll just tell you that if you are 'atheist', you're likely to be actually UU and a great deal of people don't count themselves as UUs because they don't know that this one exists.
There is no cannon but the is what unites the UUs:
1. The inherent worth and dignity of every person,
2. Justice, equity, and compassion in human relations,
3. Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in the congregation,
a free and responsible search for truth and meaning,
4. The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within the congregations and in our society at large,
5. The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all,
6. Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.
The issue of God is not truly important to me. Much more important is that I live surrounded by peace, friendly attitude and supportive people, which I try to be in return. I don't care about other formalities - my neighbours are free to do as they will as long as they don't hurt me and when they are happy, I'm happy for them. I don't care if they are black or white, gay or straight, male or female. As long as they are nice and cool people, I don't give a DAMN.
Christian people, we are all God's children. Saying that God doesn't love gay people is like saying that a mother hates a child and loves all the rest. Love doesn't need a temple, or candles, or kissing doors to be felt and experienced.
Neither does religion.
I agrea with the most of the things you wrote.....but i repeat, I AM AN ATHEIST.
I know its hard for you to belive it, or maybe you just dont want to, but i am in evry aspect of that word. I am not unitarian universalist or from any other "alternative" religion. Its hard to explain and it may soun a bit sad, but you know that you are atheist when you feel completly empty inside. I dont see those moral values that you mentioned as something good, nor do i see them as something bad. I just dont take them the ultimatly "rightful" things.
An atheist, an true atheist is something very simple (as rare) but in the same time very difficult to explain.
I am empty, have no goal, no reason, no hopes or feras. I have no moral values or any respect for "sacred" things. No wing and no strings.
When i think about religion i dont see only the institutionaled ones, but take the religion as some inner belif in something, anithing. Nomatter if you belive in god, or in some higher meening of existance, or some moral values, if you belive in something you are religius IMHO.
Conclusion....I dont belive in anithing therefor call my self an atheist.
P.S. Dont think that i say that i'm an atheist just becouse i dint have any religius intrest or guidence, i came to this point after a long period of religius "crisis" and a lot of time spent studing varius religions.
____________
And now to the next post.
|
|
Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
|
|
posted April 19, 2004 03:38 AM |
|
|
Oh, this is not nice. You messed terms even more now.
Oh, well. Do as you will.
I, hereby proclaim that whenever I speak about religion, I mean about beleiving in some sort of supernatural force, something that conscously determines the way we live, existance, balance.
Whenever I speak about atheist I mean about a man without religion. But morale values are not excluded.
Shirastro, you have an interesting philosophy. Not only you're atheist you're also "amoralist". Simple question for you: "Is peace good?"
Actually make it two yes-no questions: "Do you want Indonesia to have war with Japan, hypotetically for no reason?"
____________
The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
|
|
Shirastro
Famous Hero
Happy happy joy joy
|
|
posted April 19, 2004 04:00 AM |
|
|
Its neither good or bad, its something that people do, who am i to judge them.
And no i dont want indonesia to have a war with japan, thats something that doasnet concerne me. But if they should, then oh well...do as they want.
____________
And now to the next post.
|
|
bort
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Discarded foreskin of morality
|
|
posted April 19, 2004 04:10 AM |
|
|
I believe the term for not believing in anything is "nihilist."
____________
Drive by posting.
|
|
Shirastro
Famous Hero
Happy happy joy joy
|
|
posted April 19, 2004 04:12 AM |
|
|
Ok listen call it however the f**k you want.
____________
And now to the next post.
|
|
Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
|
|
posted April 19, 2004 04:20 AM |
|
|
OK. So, if you don't want Indonesia to have war with Japan for no particular reason, then you do care whether it's peace or war. It's not "something that people just do". You do have morales after all.
If you had said you don't care, you'd be a very selfish and inhuman person. That's a trick question. Don't take it personally. I had to ask you that, coz I'm always so ****in right. 
____________
The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
|
|
Shirastro
Famous Hero
Happy happy joy joy
|
|
posted April 19, 2004 04:27 AM |
|
|
Svarog, what the heck are you talking about. Mine "its something that people do" line meens just that, i dont care.
And you are not always right
____________
And now to the next post.
|
|
frostwolf
Famous Hero
livin' in a bottle of vodka
|
|
posted April 19, 2004 10:18 PM |
|
|
Well, actually having no morale code, no religion, absolutely nothing, as you said, would mean that you are not human. There has to be some form of philosophy wich you accept as true, otherwise you simply cannot exist.
____________
What can you expect from a world where everybody lives because they're too afraid to commit suicide?
|
|
Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
|
posted April 19, 2004 10:41 PM |
|
Edited By: Consis on 19 Apr 2004
|
Philisophical Formulae
Some Of My Thoughts:
1. Human - Conscience = animal
2. Conscience - Guilt = Animal
3. Conscience - Responsibility = Animal
4. Conscience - Mercy = Animal
5. Animal + Conscience + Guilt + Responsibility + Mercy = Human
"To be or not to be. That is the question."
-William Shakespeare...
____________
Roses Are Red And So Am I
|
|
Shirastro
Famous Hero
Happy happy joy joy
|
|
posted April 20, 2004 12:00 AM |
|
|
Thats your opinion Consis, beside i never said that i have no conscience.
If guilt, responsibility and mercy is what it takes to be considered a human than i am glad to be called an animal.
____________
And now to the next post.
|
|
Marelt_Ekiran
Promising
Famous Hero
Watcher of All
|
|
posted April 20, 2004 12:54 AM |
|
|
...and whether you like it or not, humans are just as much animals as everything that crawls, swims or walks on this earth. We are the Homo sapiens, from the phylum Chordata.
Add another vote for the atheists.
____________
Perception is everything.
|
|
frostwolf
Famous Hero
livin' in a bottle of vodka
|
|
posted April 20, 2004 09:11 PM |
|
|
Actually, both your opinions are wrong. We are animals biologicaly speaking, but we are in fact much more than that. It is reason that makes you human, because reason, as Hegel said, is substance, reason is the very thing the world is based upon. We have reason, we can identify ourselves with reason, as we naturally have the ability to. Animals can't.
And no, feeling guilt, mercy and responsability is not what beeing human is about. Nor is it about feeling love or compassion. Beeing human is having the ability to reason and therefor have a scale of values to which to compare things, as well as being able to offer you a point of view of the sorounding world.
If we're no more than animals, how do you explain that we invented civilisation, philosophy and god(just to mention a few), while dogs still lick theyr balls. Beeing both animals, we should be doing the same since there is no real difference between us, other than being clasafied differently.
____________
What can you expect from a world where everybody lives because they're too afraid to commit suicide?
|
|
Lord_Woock
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Daddy Cool with a $90 smile
|
|
posted April 20, 2004 09:22 PM |
|
|
Ants and bees have their civilizations too. Does that make them any better than other animals?
____________
Yolk and God bless.
---
My buddy's doing a webcomic and would certainly appreciate it if you checked it out!
|
|
Wiseman
Known Hero
|
|
posted April 20, 2004 09:47 PM |
|
|
And what is the definition of civilisation according to you?
|
|
Shirastro
Famous Hero
Happy happy joy joy
|
|
posted April 20, 2004 09:49 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Actually, both your opinions are wrong. We are animals biologicaly speaking, but we are in fact much more than that. It is reason that makes you human, because reason, as Hegel said, is substance, reason is the very thing the world is based upon. We have reason, we can identify ourselves with reason, as we naturally have the ability to. Animals can't.
And no, feeling guilt, mercy and responsability is not what beeing human is about. Nor is it about feeling love or compassion. Beeing human is having the ability to reason and therefor have a scale of values to which to compare things, as well as being able to offer you a point of view of the sorounding world.
If we're no more than animals, how do you explain that we invented civilisation, philosophy and god(just to mention a few), while dogs still lick theyr balls. Beeing both animals, we should be doing the same since there is no real difference between us, other than being clasafied differently.
The only reason why we did such thing is becous we are more inteligent than animals...thats all. We dont have any higher reason or goal.
____________
And now to the next post.
|
|
Lord_Woock
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Daddy Cool with a $90 smile
|
|
posted April 20, 2004 09:52 PM |
|
|
Ugh, wrong word. I meant society.
____________
Yolk and God bless.
---
My buddy's doing a webcomic and would certainly appreciate it if you checked it out!
|
|
Lady_Milena
Honorable
Known Hero
Grannie Sweet Cheeks
|
|
posted April 20, 2004 10:01 PM |
|
|
Brace yourselves, boys, MILENA POST!
Now, first my apologies to Consis and Svarog. They know why. Sorry, boys, I'm a snow sometimes and it's a matter of bad luck to get me in these very times and I hate myself for these later. Bad ex is making my life a misery, so I'm male-sensitive. So, sorry.
On the point of atheists, don't confuse 'atheists' with 'nontheists' and 'agnostics'. On a side note, 'nihilist' is a philosophical term, not a theological one.
On Consis' post, I'd like to make a point. I've wondered for a GREAT deal of time, what makes a person different from an animal?
Some religions say that animals have only body and spirit, while humans have body, soul and spirit. (Right now is the time to apologize if it was actually the spirit one out.)
On a purely physical note, it's the nervous system that makes an animal different from a human. They say that a human's brain is much more complicated and much more developed than any given animal's. A human, they say, is much more prone to progress than an animal. He is the smartest, oh wait, should I say most intelligent creature on earth.
Illusions.
That could as WELL be some part of the truth but what REALLY makes the mind of a human different than the mind of an animal is in fact ... empathy. People have succeeded because of the continuational type of psyche. That sounds too vague? Okay, I'll know. Let me give an example. Animals take care of their kids because it's their INSTINCT. Some live in packs because survival is easier that way. They would teach basic stuff to the pack and no one else. Humans would teach other humans without knowing them. Humans would help an unknown person without having met him before. They would like stones and books with knowledge not merely for their offspring but those to come in centuries ahead. No animal would do that.
Oh, I'm drifting away from the pain point. What is empathy in the first place? It's compassion. It's the -ability- to put yourself in another person's place and see their POV and pain without actually experiencing it. Animals cannot experience it in this way. While they do care for their immediate pack, they do not care for complete strangers, neither can they exhibit mercy and compassion. We're talking about capability here.
Merely being able to -understand- someone, feel their pain and be compassionate and sympathetic is something that only humans can do. Only humans have the capacity to forgive without forgetting. Only they (and some) would risk their lives for someone they don't know. Mutual help without immediate selfish reasons is actually (one of) the key(s) to progress.
A lil bit offtopic maybe but... my Unitarian ultimate POV :-P
____________
God does not need exist to save us...
|
|
Shirastro
Famous Hero
Happy happy joy joy
|
|
posted April 20, 2004 10:11 PM |
|
|
Go x-men go ....just kiding
I think we should make a truce and stop this topic, its becoming boring 
____________
And now to the next post.
|
| |
|
|
This thread is pages long: 
