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Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted April 15, 2004 05:16 AM |
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Quote:
Sorry for ruining your thread
I know what you mean, but my social surrounding influented my beliefs only by routing my faith to christianity.
Hello Fenix,
I don´t think you ruined the thread, and there´s nothing wrong with your world view anyway. But just to explain, my social surrounding influenced me in that way, too, and this is the main reason why I initially began to doubt what I was brought up to belief. In different parts of the world, children are brought up - often to the extend of severe indoctrination - with completely different and (in relation to each others) incompatible belief systems. In Western Europe and the United States, the majority follows christian traditions, while for example further to the south east, you won´t find many who do not believe in the Koran. What are your criterias to find out whether your religion is true or wrong? Had you been brought up somewhere else, it´s likely that your belief would have been routed to a different faith system.
You also mention your religious experience when you receive the sacrament of the Eucharist. I respect that, but just like the above, that cannot be a criteria for truth, because religious experiences occur among the followers of every religion, of every different kind of belief and spirituality.
To myself, the fact that I was educated and indoctrainated to be a Christian from early age is one of the main reason why I began to doubt my belief at the age of 17/18, and after a long process of thinking and arguing with myself became a sceptic.
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Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted April 15, 2004 05:18 AM |
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Quote:
Although my avatar isn't really best for defending the faith...
That´s a matter of perspective. I´d say it´s just perfect  .
(No offense intended.  )
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2xtremetotake
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted April 15, 2004 05:56 AM |
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Im not really sure if i believe in a god or not. Its hard to believe that there is one all powerful being out there. I dont believe any of those stories tohugh, Noahs ark, moses, Adam and eve. i believe those are just fables. I dont believe that god just said "Ah im bored, imma make a blue and green ball and place little people on it" I believe in the scientific theory of how earth formed, and i believe in evolution. However it is likely that god did not intervene, just maybe helped 'guide' it along.
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I almost had a psychic girlfriend but she left me before we met.
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drikx
Adventuring Hero
in little pieces on the floor
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posted April 15, 2004 07:48 AM |
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that would be defined as agnostic. still counts towards religion.
i'm just bubbling with answers
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and they say i'm lost, i lost this back in the war... whoops.
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doomnezeu
Supreme Hero
Miaumiaumiau
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posted April 15, 2004 10:14 AM |
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Quote:
Im not really sure if i believe in a god or not. Its hard to believe that there is one all powerful being out there. I dont believe any of those stories tohugh, Noahs ark, moses, Adam and eve. i believe those are just fables. I dont believe that god just said "Ah im bored, imma make a blue and green ball and place little people on it" I believe in the scientific theory of how earth formed, and i believe in evolution. However it is likely that god did not intervene, just maybe helped 'guide' it along.
You have, probably, the most objective opinion abput the subject of this thread.
I belive that there is a god, but i also belive that he is more EVIL than GOOD, and that his tehniques of manipulations are far beyond perfect (hence religion and the other related stuff that makes people BLINDLY belive). I think that, for him ,all of this is just a game, he likes to play with his toys (meaning us), to seldom war and to watch people beat the hell out of eachother.
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Fenix
Known Hero
In ranks of Nebwoocka Alliance
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posted April 15, 2004 10:45 AM |
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Quote:
To myself, the fact that I was educated and indoctrainated to be a Christian from early age is one of the main reason why I began to doubt my belief at the age of 17/18, and after a long process of thinking and arguing with myself became a sceptic.
I know what you mean, because I think that every Christian
(who thinks with his own had) goes through a phase like this. I was also many times thinking does the God exist.
Only difference between our religious choices seems to be the fact that I proved myself that God exists.
Someone mentioned Bing Bang and evoltuion.
Both theories were made by a priest, and both are confirmed as possible by Vatican
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NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition!
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted April 15, 2004 04:16 PM |
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Big Bang and evolution approved by Vatican?!
Then there's a serious disobedience among the clergy, since they all teach differently.
Anyway, conserning evolution, Christians say: God created man and proclaimed them to be His most beloved creation, while evolution says we are nothing more than "upgraded monkeys". Doesn't sound logical to me.
Also, another issue you havent touched yet is about heaven/hell, the Final Judgement and the salvation through Jesus. Imho, for a reasonable person this is pure mythology, no better than Ancient Greek or Egyptian. This is also an important aspect which disapproves ALL other religions.
You claim to be Christian, but disapprove many crucial fundamentalities of that religion. For eg. those dogmas that don't go well with reason, you simply disagree with them, and finally you end up with a pantheistic God of yours, a thing totally different than the Christian God. (?!)
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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Shirastro
Famous Hero
Happy happy joy joy
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posted April 15, 2004 05:58 PM |
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One thing that i hate about the people that belive in god is that 99% of them do that only when they see fit and when they need it.
If they live in a period of life where they dont have many problems, they tend to forget about religion and enjoy them selfs, but when a problem strucks, they run to church.
P.S. Phenix this wasnt about you but about peopel in general.
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And now to the next post.
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Fenix
Known Hero
In ranks of Nebwoocka Alliance
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posted April 15, 2004 09:55 PM |
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Big Bang and evolution approved by Vatican?!
Then there's a serious disobedience among the clergy, since they all teach differently.
Anyway, conserning evolution, Christians say: God created man and proclaimed them to be His most beloved creation, while evolution says we are nothing more than "upgraded monkeys". Doesn't sound logical to me.
Also, another issue you havent touched yet is about heaven/hell, the Final Judgement and the salvation through Jesus. Imho, for a reasonable person this is pure mythology, no better than Ancient Greek or Egyptian. This is also an important aspect which disapproves ALL other religions.
You claim to be Christian, but disapprove many crucial fundamentalities of that religion. For eg. those dogmas that don't go well with reason, you simply disagree with them, and finally you end up with a pantheistic God of yours, a thing totally different than the Christian God. (?!)
If theory of evolution is incorrect, then God smuggled australopitec bones just to fool mankind.
Of course Church approves evolution and Bing Bang. As I said, both theories were made by priests.
Bible tells us stories about these things, but people who were writing it didn't know anything about DNA or dinosaurs or quantum physics.
Stephen Hawking was in group of scientists who had a meeting with Pope about teological confirmation of these theories. I think he wrote about it in Brief history of time.
I don't think I'm against any dogmas.
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NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition!
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Vadskye91
Promising
Supreme Hero
Back again
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posted April 15, 2004 09:58 PM |
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Um, I thought we agreed to a truce? Oh well.
Backing up Fenix's recent post: The reason God would have put the bones in was so that we would need faith. If he simply revealed himself in all his glory, there would be no way to believe otherwise, taking away our free will.
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Knowledge is power...
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Fenix
Known Hero
In ranks of Nebwoocka Alliance
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posted April 15, 2004 10:08 PM |
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I don't mean in things about bones, it was just a retrical figure. I believe that evolution and DNA are God's tools in creating a man.
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NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition!
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Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted April 16, 2004 01:08 AM |
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Only difference between our religious choices seems to be the fact that I proved myself that God exists.
With Aquin´s so-called philosophical evidences, and the Bible´s partial historical correctness?
It´s true that after having to accept more and more defeats and being forced to make more and more concession to the natural sciences, the Vatican has ceased its competition about what is - now only making concrete assertions when they are strictly irrefutable. (And it goes without saying that for any irrefutable sentence, there´s another one irrefutable which states exactly the opposite.)
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Lady_Milena
Honorable
Known Hero
Grannie Sweet Cheeks
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posted April 17, 2004 03:45 PM |
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Atheist.
This word puts me to shame.
There is no such thing as an atheist.
I have seen so many 'witty' comments about Milena being an atheist or a heretic or whatever. It pains me to see that there are so many 'witty' people over there and so much ignorance floating around them. Just that you know, peeps, Milena is -not- an atheist. Actually, I'm very deeply religious and I've never denied that.
There are over 30 major religions in the world. Just a few of them are the three main wings of Christianity, the Quakers (who has wings as well), Islam, Buddhism, New Age, neopagan, Secular Humanism, Judaism, Wicca and I'm not even going into Mormons, Witnesses of Jehova, scientology and I don't know what.
There is a very deep and general misconception that if you believe in God, you're a Christian, Muslim or maybe a buddhist. If you don't believe in God, you're an atheist.
B.S. Do you know how that spells? B-U-L-L-S-H-I-T.
If you compare ALL religions, you are going to see that ALL of them stem from one and the same thing. They all start with the creation of the world. Judaism, Christianity, Islam: they all offer a GODLY creation of the universe. The Jews call that creative force "Jehova", Muslims call it "Allah" and so on. Well, if you look at it strictly, you HAVE to admit that they obviously talk about one and the same force. The name and oomph are always different but in the end, it's about the same thing that wa created! For clarification, there are religions who DENY the godly origins of the universe. Take Secular Humanism. The Seculars deny the existence of supernatural forces and believe that all is explained by means of science. For them, the world was created with the big BOOM BANG. Now, don't ask me for the deepest details, I'm not a SH but you got the picture I hope. This is the main credo of the SH: "To promote and defend reason, science, and freedom of inquiry in all areas of human endeavor."
(I'm sure that someone will bang me on the head for calling SH and some others 'religions'. Faiths, lifestances, lifebeliefs, this is what religion is in its essense after all.)
Now, you've got to admit that we take for granted that the world exists and there must be SOME source of its creation. I personally choose to call it 'god' and I do regard god as this: as the initial source of the universe. However, I find the classical "white beard angry old man" quite ridiculous.
There are a row of other religions that are quite different and a lot of them are quite the non-aggressive, non-intruding type of thing. A lot of people fall to these, it's only that they do not KNOW that someone already has a faith/religion to fit their personal tastes. Before I discovered my religion, I thought that I was agnostic (I just avoid the world atheist). I didn't believe in God the way that the Orthodox bulgarians do, I disdain icons and I loathe the hypocricy of the church. Oh, I can feel a wave of repudiation coming from you. I'll give you a very recent example that DISGUSTED me to no end. It's SICKENING for me.
I was Friday just before Easter. I went with my friend to the local Orthodox church - there is a small ritual that I find pretty (passing under a table). On the door of the church there was a notice: "you should buy candles from only inside the church! If bought outside, God won't hear your prayers and they are in vain…."
Sick, I felt SICK. Truth faith and love of God does not come with a candle, does not come with feeding the fat throats of obese clergymen…. True faith does not come with kissing icons and the doors of the church….
I'm proud to be the bright follower of a bright religion. Do I believe in God? Maybe I do but that's not important and not essential to me if there is one. Yeah, all hail the creator of the universe cause without that, we wouldn't enjoy the beauty of the world and I'm grateful that there are so many lovely things to behold and experience. But sit on my ass and pray 5 times a day and beg for my life… hell. That's nonsense to ME.
I'm Unitarian Universalist. The religion started in the 14th-15th c. in Transylvania, Rumania and since then has moved west. I won't elaborate much on it. I'll just tell you that if you are 'atheist', you're likely to be actually UU and a great deal of people don't count themselves as UUs because they don't know that this one exists.
There is no cannon but the is what unites the UUs:
1. The inherent worth and dignity of every person,
2. Justice, equity, and compassion in human relations,
3. Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in the congregation,
a free and responsible search for truth and meaning,
4. The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within the congregations and in our society at large,
5. The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all,
6. Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.
The issue of God is not truly important to me. Much more important is that I live surrounded by peace, friendly attitude and supportive people, which I try to be in return. I don't care about other formalities - my neighbours are free to do as they will as long as they don't hurt me and when they are happy, I'm happy for them. I don't care if they are black or white, gay or straight, male or female. As long as they are nice and cool people, I don't give a DAMN.
Christian people, we are all God's children. Saying that God doesn't love gay people is like saying that a mother hates a child and loves all the rest. Love doesn't need a temple, or candles, or kissing doors to be felt and experienced.
Neither does religion.
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God does not need exist to save us...
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Fenix
Known Hero
In ranks of Nebwoocka Alliance
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posted April 17, 2004 04:45 PM |
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Quote:
Christian people, we are all God's children. Saying that God doesn't love gay people is like saying that a mother hates a child and loves all the rest. Love doesn't need a temple, or candles, or kissing doors to be felt and experienced.
Neither does religion.
Agreed. I don't think none of us is judging people by religion. All religions teach good, yet I consider that there are 5 major religions and many communities (like Mormons, Jehovas, New Age etc.) On some of these communities I don't look in bright light. Some are too orthodox, bizarre or pure evil (like Satanists). This experience with candles is making me laugh. I think that even in Middle age people weren't so primitive.
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NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition!
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted April 17, 2004 06:30 PM |
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Milena, your letter is full of good intention and positive vibes, although I can't see why is "atheist" bad, and "Secualr Humanist" OK. If you're talking about ethics and values (which you call sort of religion), then we have a difference in terminology.
I'd agree that religion does mean ethics too, but I can't say all ethical codes are in a way religious ones.
IMO, religion is closely connected with supernatural, and is good for only to push people further apart.
Differences between religions do exist. And those differences, are used by religious fanatics to turn people against each other. One notable and most important core aspect in Christianity is the theory of salvation through faith in Jesus. Now, that is a turning point where other religions don't agree, and according to the Christians they will all go to hell. 
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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Fenix
Known Hero
In ranks of Nebwoocka Alliance
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posted April 17, 2004 07:02 PM |
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STOP TALKING NONSENSE!
We have discussed this many times. Christians DO NOT BELIEVE that you go to hell if you are not a Christian. That would be pure racism and discrimination. NOT TRUE! It's against any idea of love and understanding that Christ teaches. We are all children of God.
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NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition!
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted April 18, 2004 01:18 AM |
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It is sooo true. As far as Christians are concerned you can be a bad ass mother snower for your entire live, as long as you repent for your sins and suddenly start beleiving in Jesus in the last moments before death, the doors of heaven are wide open for you!
At the same time, a man who's been doing good deeds for his/her entire live, but doesn't have a faith in Jesus (just like me ), will still go hell.
That's the "official" doctrine. And you can choose to beleive whatever you want, with as many modifications you want, but that's the true face of Christianity.
(Anyone out there with knowledge of the Bible to provide info on this?!)
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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Khaelo
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Underwater
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posted April 18, 2004 02:27 AM |
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Edited By: Khaelo on 17 Apr 2004
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There is very little that can be called the true face of Christianity. There are many "official" doctrines and many more unofficial ones. Svarog, what you're talking about sounds like the theology promoted by the (American) Southern Baptists, but entirely unlike the viewpoint I was taught in Roman Catholic schools. Different denominations, different congregations, different clergy, different believers -- all different ways of seeing Christ. And they all call it Christianity.
It's easy to take a single interpretation, call it the "real" Christianity, and then either bash it to death or hold it up as the beautiful truth. If you go back to the Bible, even the Gospel writers didn't entirely agree about Christ! Each has his own take, his own themes, his own theology. (I'm taking a class on the origins of Christianity right now.) From a historical point of view, that's annoying and perhaps causes doubt as to the historical accuracy of the facts. From a religious point of view, it's perfectly normal -- no two people see another individual's personality the same way, so why would four writers all see a divine person (much more complex!) the same way?
Hmm, now I'm getting off topic and rather close to a rant...My main point is to not construct a strawman of Christianity (or Islam, or any other religion) and then promote it as an accurate representation of the entire religion.
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 Cleverly
disguised as a responsible adult
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Shirastro
Famous Hero
Happy happy joy joy
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posted April 18, 2004 02:31 AM |
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I guess i shouldnt be the one deffending him i think you might be wrong.
Though it may be written somewhere in the bible (cant remeber), i think this story comes from Dantes "Inferno".
There, while being guided trugh hell, Dante describes what he sees and wht persons he finds there.
The non belivers, where placed in the first (i think) ring of hell. Even if they were born even beffor Jesus Christ, (and there for couldnt possible be christion even if they wanted to).
But that doasent matter....as i said in some of mine previus posts, it doasent matter what written and whats not in bible (or in any other holly book), couse if you dont belive in god, such things are, by defult, not true and you shoulndt be concerned.
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And now to the next post.
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Fenix
Known Hero
In ranks of Nebwoocka Alliance
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posted April 18, 2004 02:08 PM |
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Dante is a poet and one of the greatest wrtiters ever, but he represented point of view of 13th century.
If Baptists teach those things, they have gone too far. Chatolics, which are the most numbered group base of Christianity think different. If we generalise things, they should be example.
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NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition!
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