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Khaelo
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Underwater
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posted April 20, 2004 11:40 PM |
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Edited By: Khaelo on 20 Apr 2004
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If the debate bores you, Shirastro, just drop out. 
For the record, I think the "difference" between human and animal is like the difference between green and blue. At some level, there is a distinction -- you can say this thing here is green and that thing there is blue. However, they're both colors, and there will always be turquoise to mess things up. Humans are more intelligent, more capable of abstract thought, more capable of moral choice, than animals, just as the light waves bouncing off a blue object are closer together(?) than those bouncing off a green object. But what of humans who have severe mental underdevelopment? And animals, like dolphins, who are highly sophisticated?
Compassion and/or altruism may be one way to measure moral choice (can the being make choices beyond self-interest?), but it's not really enough. There are plenty of anecdotes of animals showing compassionate or altruistic behavior. Humans aren't very altruistic beyond their "pack," either -- we're just more capable of defining the pack in larger, more abstract terms (the nation, for instance), due to our intelligence. Since altruistic behavior is neither unknown in animals nor particularly characteristic of humans, I don't think it's the best place to draw the line.
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 Cleverly
disguised as a responsible adult
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Vadskye91
Promising
Supreme Hero
Back again
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posted April 21, 2004 12:35 AM |
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Truce! 
Pizza anyone?
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Knowledge is power...
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Shirastro
Famous Hero
Happy happy joy joy
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posted April 21, 2004 02:02 AM |
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One large pepperoni for me 
Oh and i'm sorry for saying its getting boring. Wrong word, i think i should have used "monotone" since all do is state our points of views without really listnening or trying to comprehand each other. Its obvius that nobody is going to change his religius belifes (or get any) just becouse of something he/she read on a HOMM message board
We could ofcuorse change a subject a little bit and try to figure out what makes us "humans" and animals "animals".
My two cents: the only reason we are considered humans (or anithing higher than the animals) is just becouse its us who decided so.
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Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted April 21, 2004 02:49 AM |
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Quote:
Its obvius that nobody is going to change his religius belifes (or get any) just becouse of something he/she read on a HOMM message board.
Thatīs not at all obvious. Willingness to change oneīs view is something that Iīd expect from anyone who takes part in any discussion. A person who is not willing to change his or her opinion, at the sight of good arguments, is a person without intellectual honesty.
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted April 21, 2004 03:17 AM |
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Question to Lews:
Are you willing to change your religious view now that you are participating in this thread?
Has this (or other religious threads) influenced you in any way on your view?
I'm guessing double "no" here.
Anyway, I'm not saying people shouldn't be open-minded or anything, but as far as I'm concerned I am not likely to change my opinions. Only at times strenghten or soften them. It's because I have such strong beleifs, and that annoys some people in RL who see they can't change my mind easily with a one sentence lame argument.
But it is possible! Only it takes an outstanding person and logic to make me change my views on anything, and there are such people here on HC, which is exactly the reason why I spend time here at all (besides the game).
Give credit to: Nidhgrin, Peacemaker, Khaelo, Lews, even PH (for strenghtening my opinions though  ) and few other members that I can't think of @ the mo.
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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Asmodean
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Heroine at the weekend.
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posted April 21, 2004 03:23 AM |
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Well some threads have changed my opinions on other issues, as they provided more information than what I had originally based my opinion on.
But they were on topics that were perhaps less personal.
Obviously to those that possess religious beliefs - they are intimately personal.
Those that don't possess them - don't care.
On a debate, say on gay people or war with Iraq, it's quite possible to be unaware of all the facts.
Not so in a theological debate.
By it's nature, it possesses very few facts.
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To err is human, to arr is pirate.
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Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted April 21, 2004 04:55 AM |
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Quote:
Question to Lews:
Are you willing to change your religious view now that you are participating in this thread?Has this (or other religious threads) influenced you in any way on your view?
Hello Svarog,
yes, I think I am. That is, if you can show me why your religious conviction is more plausible than the thousands of others that are existing - even more plausible than agnosticism or negative atheism.
Of course, in order to convince me of a monotheist religionīs truth, you would first have to show why the respective belief is rational and moral, by solving the problem of theodicy and a few others.
You are right that a big turn-around is not likely to happen, as most of us have already spent some time reading and thinking through various arguments and counterarguments before taking up an opinion.
But my point is not about likeliness, itīs about being open for change at all, about respecting the rules of discussion, about being more interested in arriving closer to the truth than afraid of "losing". (I said it before, the only thing that you can lose in a discussion is your own errors.)
And in more specific discussions, yes, it does happen quite often that I learn something new and change my opinion. One example subject from this forum is affirmative action: Bort wrote an excellent posting on this, that made me completely reconsider my former negative view.
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Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted April 21, 2004 05:35 AM |
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Quote:
On a debate, say on gay people or war with Iraq, it's quite possible to be unaware of all the facts.
Not so in a theological debate.
Hello Asmodean,
Well, that depends. In this thread, I have seen people argue that their belief is based on logical consistency, philosophical evidences, or the bibleīs being in accordance with historical science.
Now, if I can show that the logic isnīt consistent, that the evidence is refutable, and that historical science is not at all in agreement with the "holy" books, shouldnīt that be a reason to reconsider the belief system? If not, why havenīt those arguments been brought up in the beginning?
Quote:
By it's nature, it possesses very few facts.
Well, yes. Thatīs the problem with the whole concept of belief. Itīs not possible to distinguish supposed truths from speculation and/or wishful thinking.
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Shirastro
Famous Hero
Happy happy joy joy
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posted April 21, 2004 07:17 AM |
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I think that a person will change his/her religius belives only if he/she has a desire or need to do so. If that person feels unconfortable about his religion or think that THAT particular religion doasnt gives him the answers he need he will (in moste cases) search the answers for him self. I know that no matter what i say i will not make Fenix an atheist, and viceversa. There would have to be some really incredibly deep and mindblowing post to even start moving things in that direction. As Asmodean said all this discutions are based on little to none fisical evidence, and are based almost soely on our own belives.
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted April 21, 2004 06:04 PM |
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Hey guys! Mind if I interject?
Many people are on a quest to understand such things better these days. Many people have already decided upon their own spiritual issues. To say that "nobody will change their mind" discounts the first set of individuals -- those who continue to take in information and modify their thoughts and beliefs accordingly.
So whether one changes his or her mind during such a discussion depends on their individual position in the process, and their purpose for engaging in the dialogue.
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frostwolf
Famous Hero
livin' in a bottle of vodka
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posted April 21, 2004 09:53 PM |
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Quote:
My two cents: the only reason we are considered humans (or anithing higher than the animals) is just becouse its us who decided so.
I don't mean to be agresive, but your answer is simple and unthought and not a solid argument. I could simply attack it by saing theat the simpe fact theat we can decide weather we consider ourselves animals or not already makes us far superior from animals, since we prove to have logic, reason, power of decision, ability to distinguish opposite elements and so on.
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What can you expect from a world where everybody lives because they're too afraid to commit suicide?
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Shirastro
Famous Hero
Happy happy joy joy
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posted April 21, 2004 10:09 PM |
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Yes but it was us in the first place who decided that those were the requsites for being considered something more than an animal.
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted April 22, 2004 02:26 AM |
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frostwolf, animals too have logic, reason, ability to decide about their actions and distinguish opposites.
I think, humans are just animals, different from other animals because of few charachteristics, just as bats are different from other mammals due to their wings.
Those differences seem spectacular to us, but it's just a matter of brain capacity, nothing more.
May i remind you that the human genome is 98% of the chimp's genetic code.
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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Shirastro
Famous Hero
Happy happy joy joy
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posted April 22, 2004 02:28 AM |
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I changed my mind....make that a banana pizza for me
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Asmodean
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Heroine at the weekend.
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posted April 22, 2004 02:34 AM |
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Everyone quotes that statistic Svarog.
Do you know how many genes are in 2% of the human genome?
Hundreds of thousands!
How many of that 98% we have in common is actually the genetic code for stuff like eye color (which we share with chimps btw), or enzymes such as insulin, or production of stomach acid.
Stuff that we have in common with all other animals in fact. Cats and dogs share something like 91%
It's the 2% that makes us special! Not the other 98% that basically just say that our bodies are made of meat etc.
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To err is human, to arr is pirate.
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted April 22, 2004 03:03 AM |
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So 2% mean so much to you that give you the right to be something special, an exception from the rest of "evolution's deadends".
Say, the bat has a percantage bigger than 2% that differs him from his closest relative. Does that make bats something extraordinary in the living world?
It's human egoism that won't let them face the truth and see where they belong. There is branch in sociology/anthropology developed lately (can't remember the name though. smth like evolutional sociology or similar) that points out all the common things we have with the animals and successfully uncovers the basic biological reason for much of our "sophisticated" actions.
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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Shirastro
Famous Hero
Happy happy joy joy
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posted April 22, 2004 03:18 AM |
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I think the only reason someone see those 2% as something spetial is becouse they are affraid to face their mortality, in both fisical and spiritual way.
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted April 22, 2004 03:50 AM |
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Svarog, the thing that separates us from animals is our brains -- the ability to become cognizant, to self- reflect, to be aware of what we call time, to wonder and reason about the Spirit (call it god if you want) -- humans have some wierd thing going on with that 2% difference -- or maybe beyond it -- that creates self-awareness.
As an Indian person I tend to believe that all things are embued with a unique kind of spiritual essense. However, you don't see any animals engaging in such extreme attempts to make themselves "comfortable" and "happy" to the point where they manipulate the vast ecological realities around them, create and destroy for the sake of creating and destroying, or embarking on anything near the pursuits that humans have on this planet.
There is one entity and one entity only that has the knowledge and stupidity combined to end life on this planet -- and that is HUMANS. We have for whatever reasons stepped outside the ecological, evolutional chain of our origins and become something beyond it.
If you ask me, humans are stricken with some sort of viral problem that makes them think -- that they're supreme, that they're better than all other life forms -- that they have "rights" that are superior to all other creatures --
or maybe the virus is that they "think" to begin with.
You show me ONE animal that has wrecked such creation/devastation on this planet and I will agree we are "just animals" and shut up. Until then I maintain your argument is a strawman.
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted April 22, 2004 04:08 AM |
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We are different, that's for sure. But the thing is, we fail to see how similar we are.
When I look at dolphins, chimps behavior, I truly can't see almost any difference between that animal and a mentally disabled person. As I said, the thing is, we think we are so sophisticated, but in fact we submit to the same natural laws/instincts/urges that all other animals do.
You cannot tell what goes through a dolphin's mind. But our egoistic nature prevents us from even thinking about equality in terms of our place in the living world.
You say that we are the only species capable of destroying the planet. It's not true. We cannot destroy the planet, we can only destroy ourselves and the environment around us. Well, take soldier ants for example. They are capable of wreaking havoc upon themselves and their environment in a proportion that is similar to the human abillity, when compared to their size.
Sorry to be off-topic: Although I've debated on few international tournaments in English so far, I've never heard the term "strawman's argument". What is it?
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted April 22, 2004 04:26 AM |
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Quote:
Sorry to be off-topic: Although I've debated on few international tournaments in English so far, I've never heard the term "strawman's argument". What is it?
Fallacy: Straw Man
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