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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted October 10, 2010 01:47 AM |
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Elodin, this absolves you... How?
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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Adrius
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Stand and fight!
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posted October 10, 2010 02:04 AM |
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I feel ignored...
Did you notice my post concerning your posting style Elodin? I know it must be hard to spot since it doesn't have "CHRISTIANITY SUCKS, ATHEISM IS PURE" written all over it but... yeah whatever.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted October 10, 2010 02:06 AM |
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Quote:
Elodin, this absolves you... How?
First, I need no absolution.
Second, I was responding to a snide comment about Muslims.
The person claimed a Muslim may steal from an employer by praying when he is supposed to be working. I stated the Muslim would likely to let his employer know of his need to pray. I also stated the possiblility the fundamentalist atheist may dishonest.
So in your opinion it is ok to say a Muslim may be dishonest but not that an atheist may be dishonest, eh? That is the double standard held by many on this board. They think it quite ok to make all kinds of snide comments about religious people but they cry rivers of tears of if anyone dares impune atheism.
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted October 10, 2010 03:23 AM |
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Quote:
That was unnecessary. We don't need a religious discussion in here.
EDIT:
@Bixie: I disagree, Elodin isn't a troll. There is nothing wrong with his arguments imo, it is simply how he presents them.
If he can correct is behaviour and be less offensive overall, I personally will have no problem with him.
I think i agree with Adrius, partially.
I do not agree with his wording, because I read the intention different.
But yes: I find it strange it is ignored, but that is sadly the nature of this forum.
Elodin: The reason JJ complains is because reality does not work that way. If you are going to spend the time compiling up a list of "insults", anybody else could just compile a list of your bashing and thus: Point invalid as always.
And your interpretation is open for debate, as always.
A muslim or any religions person will ask for time to pray if its within worktime, and from a economical standpoint that might be significant or unsignificant.
The atheist got no excuse, but will perhaps use the food break for a errand, if the job contract does not confine it too much.
At the same time, lunchtime might be at the benefital prayer time.
So how can then a atheist be more dishonest?
If any moderators feel like stopping this discussion, they should either move all replies over manually, or decide to take proper action along with rewritting the CoC.
I say this because jsut supressing everything will just delay the what is happening, AGAIN.....
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted October 10, 2010 04:11 AM |
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Quote:
I also stated the possiblility the fundamentalist atheist may dishonest.
Nuh-uh, honey bunny, saying "they don't have absolute morals" is not "implying they may dishonest". If you're being ironic, you're bad at it.
Also, what the hell is this?
Quote:
So in your opinion it is ok to say a Muslim may be dishonest but not that an atheist may be dishonest, eh? That is the double standard held by many on this board. They think it quite ok to make all kinds of snide comments about religious people but they cry rivers of tears of if anyone dares impune atheism.
Putting words in my mouth, darling. They ain't none too flattering either. I ask you refrain from this in further events.
Seriously, mods, do you see what we have to put up with?
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted October 10, 2010 04:59 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
I also stated the possiblility the fundamentalist atheist may dishonest.
Nuh-uh, honey bunny, saying "they don't have absolute morals" is not "implying they may dishonest". If you're being ironic, you're bad at it.
Saying a person does believe in absolute morals is in fact not saying the person is dishonest. It is saying the person believes in the silly notion of "relative" morality.
Quote:
Also, what the hell is this?
Quote:
So in your opinion it is ok to say a Muslim may be dishonest but not that an atheist may be dishonest, eh? That is the double standard held by many on this board. They think it quite ok to make all kinds of snide comments about religious people but they cry rivers of tears of if anyone dares impune atheism.
Putting words in my mouth, darling. They ain't none too flattering either. I ask you refrain from this in further events.
Seriously, mods, do you see what we have to put up with?
You seem to not have noticed the "?" mark. I asked the question becuase you did not object to the person who said not to hire Muslims (but instead hire atheists) becuse the Muslims would steal time by praying instead of working.
But certainly there are good recent examples of people putting words in my mouth but of course I doubt you would like to bring up objections to those.
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted October 10, 2010 05:55 AM |
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Rofl, you people are funny. Tried to make a point, and it went right over your heads. The object of the post was to have people actually stop and think, guess I failed. So, let me try again. We would rather people stop and think about what they are posting Better? Guess I forgot you can't read between the lines online.
We CAN just ban the topic, but why would we want to? We like intelligent debate. We would rather the people involved not take things so personally, and stick to the topic. The posters here, for the most part, should be able to keep the topic to a non personal level.
*sigh* probably talking to brick walls here. This will be taken as a 'we are gonna blah blah blah' and more words will be put in my mouth. I am just about to give up even trying. Despite what people seem to think I am not a Nazi or dictator or whatever other horrid thing they think.
So yes...I failed to make my point. Again. There is a hundred different ways we can handle it. Everything from kid gloves to iron fists. Thing is the posters should be mature enough we don't need to intervene. Guess that is too much to ask.
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Message received.
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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted October 10, 2010 06:52 AM |
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Quote:
The Moderators stance is that we don't want to have to be babysitters.
Translation: The so-called mods don't want to be mods.
I'll make it perfectly clear. Heroe's Community does not have an admin, and it does not have any mods. HC has been a land of chaos for at least 3-4 years now. Half the mods here have never even seen HC when it was moderated. They don't even have anything to go by as an example. It's obvious that Val doesn't give a crap about HC. And it's just as obvious that the so-called mods don't have any balls and are too afraid or unwilling to do anything.
The so-called COC is a freaking joke. It is non-existant. "Mod" is not just a title, it's a job. It's a job that's not being done, and hasn't been done for several years. Without enforcement, the COC is nothing but a bunch of meaningless words.
Everything has already been tried in the past, most of it before many of the current members and mods even came here. Talking nicely has been tried and it doesn't work, it just gets ignored. Pretending to be stern has been tried and it hasn't worked, it just gets ignored. Leading by example has been tried and it doesn't work, it just gets ignored. Those things might have worked in the past when the members were actually civil. But it's a different crowd now and they do whatever the hell they want. What used to work no longer does.
The so-called mods can only pretend to act tough without actually doing anything so many times. It's like the boy who cried wolf. Empty assertions and threats no longer have any meaning. Any reference to Moderation or the COC is nothing but a big joke, it doesn't exist.
It's a free-for-all. That is the de facto rule of the land - anything goes.
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted October 10, 2010 07:06 AM |
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Edited by Mytical at 07:14, 10 Oct 2010.
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Translation : The Moderators would rather give people the benefit of the doubt that they have at least the intelligence of a worm.
One thing right though, we have tried everything and everything has failed.
Me? I have way to open of a mind. I can see everybody's viewpoint. Yeah, I am too soft also (though apparently at the same time I am a iron fisted tyrant). You want the job? Take it. Get Val to put you in OSM, I'll step down..and gladly just shut the heck up.
Edit :
When you start silencing everybody that somebody doesn't agree with, then eventually nobody gets to talk.
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Message received.
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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted October 10, 2010 07:22 AM |
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The entire reason moderators exist is because people DON'T do what they should.
And no, not everything has been tried. Myt, we've talked about this before. And I've talked to at least 3 mods and several members who said the same thing. The mods who have been at HC just don't have the personality to really crack down and do what needs to be done. They aren't the type to go out and really crack some heads. They are just too nice for that.
What needs to be done will really piss off a lot of people. They'll b1tch and complain and raise hell. They'll "demand" that you explain yourselves and get pissed when you tell them to stfu and quit arguing. They'll "demand" that you point to the COC and tell them exactly where it says they can't do whatever it was got them penalized. And they'll probably start spouting a bunch of nonsense about authoritarian power hungry mods when you explain the concept of creative interpretation of the rules.
I understand the value of explaining to members why things are done as they are. But when they don't accept it and continue to argue endlessly, then it's time to just tell them to stfu.
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted October 10, 2010 07:37 AM |
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You are right Binabik. On both counts. A crack down would be a good thing, and I am too nice (and an evil tyrant at the same time..interesting huh?).
Allow me to put a bee in your bonnet however. It's called fairness, a odd and strange concept. See, as much as I dislike Elodin's argument STYLE, just because a person is highly religious does not automatically make them WRONG. I am not a fan of JJ's style either. Others are not the angels they are trying to make themselves out to be. Including yourself. I am not an angel either, I've stirred a few pots myself. There are other Moderators who stir the pot as well. What about them?
People seem to think it is so easy, and yeah I could make it easy on myself. Be the draconian dictator some people think I am anyhow. I'm not sure that SOLVES anything. I do have a lot to think about, and I take my time making decisions..but you have a point. I may not be right for the job.
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Message received.
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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted October 10, 2010 07:53 AM |
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Our posts are crossing.
Quote:
I can see everybody's viewpoint
There's nothing wrong with listening to different points of view. But ultimately the only point of view that matters is yours. You're the moderator, so it's your job to make the decision and stick by it. If people are arguing and you can't determine who's at fault, just penalize all of them. Allowing people to argue for page after page after page is not listening to their point of view, it's letting them run all over you. You're the mod, you make the decisions, and if they don't like it, tough. You will NEVER make a decision that everyone agrees with, it will always be controversial. So why bother trying to please everyone? That only sets you up to be taken advantage of.
Quote:
You want the job? Take it. Get Val to put you in OSM, I'll step down..and gladly just shut the heck up.
Val has been AFK for years, I seriously doubt if he has any clue what's really going on here. Either that or he just doesn't care as long as people click on his banners. I showed you what I wrote to him. I knew when I wrote it that he was highly unlikely to go for it, even though I had quite a bit of backing. And you wouldn't have to leave. We couldn't play good cop bad cop if you left. (*dibs on being the bad cop*  )
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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted October 10, 2010 08:16 AM |
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Quote:
People seem to think it is so easy, and yeah I could make it easy on myself. Be the draconian dictator some people think I am anyhow. I'm not sure that SOLVES anything.
I'm not aware of anyone who thinks you're a draconian dictator. As for whether it solves anything, you'll never know unless it's tried. I personally think there's a good chance it will work and the heavy handed tactic would be temporary, but would probably need to be reasserted on occasion.
Me not an angel? LOL, I gave up my angel wings before you even came here. When I said nothing worked, that was all before you came here. It didn't work, so now I fight fire with fire. I fight back and I have no intention of backing down. If I suicide doing it, so be it.
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winterfate
Supreme Hero
Water-marked Champion!
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posted October 10, 2010 08:27 AM |
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@Just about everything Binabik said: 
One thing's for sure, there's almost no moderators left in HC, so considerations about the quality of moderation or whatever aside, we need more.
(And, don't look at me, I'm WAY TOO NICE.  )
@Misty: Also, don't you dare step down! You're the forum's most active moderator right now (except perhaps Elvin; I don't really see Angelito around much anymore and...who else moderates in HC? :/ )
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If you supposedly care about someone, then don't push them out of your life. Acting like you're not doing it doesn't exempt you from what I just said. - Winterfate
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 10, 2010 08:57 AM |
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I hate to say it, but Elodin's posts on this page clearly show his general ill-will and, well, complete inability to cummunicate.
But that's not the point, at least not for me. I'm not complaining about him - it IS true, after all, that I can ignore his posts, if I don't like him.
I hate to repeat me, but what I want to know is whether I and everyone else can speak about religions and their believers in the same tones than Elodin does speak about atheism and atheists.
For some strange reason I don't get an answer to this.
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted October 10, 2010 09:27 AM |
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Lets go over the CoC as I interpret it.
The Foundation: Respect.
* An attitude of consideration and appreciation.
* Courteous regard for people's feelings, opinions and actions.
That includes respect for religion of all kinds, including atheism or atheist. So no. People don't seem to be able to have respect for others however.
1) NO insults, abuse, racism or sexism.
Insult is a remark that undermines another person. A simple way to avoid insulting people is to discuss their actions and opinions rather than their personality. For example: instead of saying who they are ("you suck" or "you are an idiot") say what you think about their opinions/actions and why ("Your post about me is wrong because I never said that heroes 4 is a bad game" or "I disagree with your opinion because centaurs have more hit points than gnolls"). This simple rephrasing strategy can resolve many conflicts and fights before they even happen, both online and in life.
Racism is any remark that associates negativity with a person or group of people based on their nationality, ethnicity, religion, race, place of origin, or skin color. Sexism is any remark that associates negativity with a person or group of people based on their gender or sexual orientation.
Which this falls under the category insults and abuse. So again NO, it is a breach of the CoC.
6) NO provocation or aggravation.
Provocation is unfriendly behavior that causes anger or resentment from others. Aggravation is causing, continuing or increasing irritation or trouble. This includes being a detriment to the peacekeeping of the forums.
Each member is solely responsible for their own conduct - no amount of provocation or aggravation from someone else will justify the action of breaking the rules. Instead of responding to a member who has offended you, alert a moderator about this situation and let them deal with it, keeping you out of trouble.
Which a lot of people are guilty of the last part of this one. Even if you 'skirt' the provocation by careful wording you can still fall under the second part.
Yeah, yeah. I am just as guilty. Though mostly because people put words in my mouth or misunderstand what I am saying.
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Message received.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 10, 2010 10:14 AM |
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Does that mean that Elodin is constantly in "breaking-the-COC" mode?
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted October 10, 2010 10:20 AM |
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There are many people that can fit in the CoC under number 6..especially the second part. Myself included. Depends on who you ask. Yes, according to that Elodin has breached the CoC, but he isn't the only one.
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Message received.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 10, 2010 10:53 AM |
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How am I supposed to understand that?
Does it mean, red-light-crossing and drunk-driving should be tolerated because a lot of people are guilty of speeding and parking violation?
Does it mean, stealing and robbery should be tolerated because a lot of people are guilty of tax evasion?
Would it be possible that violations of points 1 and 6 of the CoC are somewhat connected with each other?
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted October 10, 2010 10:57 AM |
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Quote:
There are many people that can fit in the CoC under number 6..especially the second part. Myself included. Depends on who you ask. Yes, according to that Elodin has breached the CoC, but he isn't the only one.
Listen, darling, is it worth anything, if it's not enforced?
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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