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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted October 10, 2010 11:16 AM |
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What I find hilarious is that the same people who are crying for the CoC to be enforced, were the same ones who cried every time it was enforced..or just about. Of course that was because it was applied to THEM, or they felt that they had to get involved *shrugs*
Hey I am game. I can be the black hat. Just be warned, I won't take sides. One person gets a penalty for something, everybody gets a penalty for the same thing. IE I give out a penalty for anti-religious remarks (or anti-atheist etc) then I give them out for all anti-religious remarks.
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Message received.
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Adrius
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Stand and fight!
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posted October 10, 2010 11:39 AM |
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Equal treatment for everyone?
Now that's a revolutionary thought... hell it's so crazy it might even work. DO IT!
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted October 10, 2010 11:50 AM |
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Quote:
I hate to repeat me, but what I want to know is whether I and everyone else can speak about religions and their believers in the same tones than Elodin does speak about atheism and atheists.
For some strange reason I don't get an answer to this.
Since you seem to be saying you don't post negative things about non-atheist religions I will spend Monday making a compilation of your anti-theist remarks as well as the anti-theist remarks of certain others. Since that seems to be necessary for me to do to counter what you are claiming.
I will also make a compilation of your direct personal insults against me.
I would rather spend my free time doing something more fun be your lobbying against me necessitate me wasting my time doing such a silly thing.
If the COC forbids criticising what other believe because they may be offended if their viewpoints are called into question then there can be no discussion about anything becasue someone would be offended by what is said and would consider the crtitsism a provocation.
The COC does not mean that religions can't be critisized. If you hold atheism to be the truth and get angry if someone calls your belief into question then you need to become moe tolerant of the right of others to express their own opinions.
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted October 10, 2010 12:00 PM |
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Edited by Mytical at 12:07, 10 Oct 2010.
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Read the CoC Elodin. When somebody is causing 'aggravation' to the forums..they can be penalized for that reason alone. Remember it is not WHAT you say, but HOW you say it. However, I am taking a totally neutral stance here. If somebody posts something to the effect 'This christian here did X, Y, and Z' they get a penalty. Just as anybody who claims that it is due to atheism that it happened, and not the person themselves. Can't make it any clearer.
So discussion about religion can take place, but things like the Crusades or Salem Witch trials were caused by PEOPLE not religions. Just like the mass deaths of millions were due to sick twisted PEOPLE, but any atheist or atheism beliefs.
What you are saying is (or at least it is coming across as) If somebody that is not a christian does something then it is their belief system that caused it. Yet if somebody claiming to be a Christian does something, Christianity is not to blaim..the individual is. Which is a very double standard. You really want a open debate about religion? No holds barred? Go to www.fratching.com. Go nuts.
This will even the playing field, as you so like to say. Nobody can attribute something to a religion or belief. Even and balanced.
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Message received.
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wog_edn
Promising
The Nothingness
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posted October 10, 2010 12:06 PM |
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Edited by wog_edn at 12:11, 10 Oct 2010.
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Wow.. You really need to get a life, man! You get some free time, so you spend it categorizing insults and anti-religious statements? You really should learn to have fun.
Man, what you're doing on here is just pathetic. But hey, if you weren't around with your bullsh* I guess these forums would be a tad more silent. It makes for an entertaining but sad and bizarre reading. I find it hard to believe you actually believe what you're saying yourself.
So yeah... get out, get drunk.
Repeat the above.
You'll have the time of your life. That's how to spend your spare time!
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 10, 2010 12:07 PM |
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Clearly, it must be possible to express negative opinions about things, whether it's atheism, Christian Belief, any other religion or known public figure(head)s.
It MUST be possible for Elodin to express his opinion about atheism. It MUST be possible for everyone else to do the same for other things.
It must be possible to discuss these things in a halfway civilized manner.
In other words, it can't be the thing as such - it must be THE WAY things are "discussed".
The only way I can see is not to take things personal when they are not expressed personal, and don't get personal when things ARE not personal.
It must be possible to discuss the flaws of any nation, ideology or belief without people identifying themselves with it start getting pissed.
There is a line between the thing - the ism - and people following it.
If you say that atheism suffers under this and that flaw, it is a very far cry from saying that atheists are prone to this and that because of this and that.
And there is a line between saying there are certainly religiously deluded people, including some atheists because there are those who do this and that, and between saying people following a religion or atheism are deluded because of doing just that.
In general, since no human and nothing human-made is perfect, I don't think it's a personal insult when your criticism of an ism by extension means, that a person following that ism is following a flawed thing.
My opinion is, if people personalize everything said about anything they hold dearly, it inevitably ends with these kinds of wars.
People who cannot make a difference between these things are destroying all discussion by heating the atmosphere.
That is, in my opinion, what Elodin is doing, deliberately or not (it doesn't matter), and that is the reason why the threads involving him always end in some turmoil.
Of course Elodin isn't the only one responsible - another factor is that some people - me as well - have problems to accept the right of a poster to insist on an opinion even if it is inconsistent or illogical.
The only reasonable conclusion is, since the discussion partner seemingly doesn't follow the same rules of logic (whether that logic is objectively correct or not), to realize that a discussion is useless and stop it, instead of continuing it, and continuing it with a provocation that somehow expresses the opinion that the discussion partner is somethat limited in his or her mental capacities.
I am guilty of that, I admit.
Clearly, though, it must be possible as well to express your opinion that someone's line of thought has logical flaws.
What that means is, that in my opinion both aggressive and defensive personalizing (pulling something on the personal level, either by for example saying that atheists are stupid idiots or by saying, you said something bad about religion, now I feel personally offended and defend myself against this attack) and repetition (repeating the same points over and over again) are deadly.
For example, atheist monsters killing hundreds of millions have been mentioned so often in some threads that even if it wasn't off-topic (which it is at least in some cases), the mindless repetition is a provocation as such.
I'm advocating a more active moderation as long as I can remember. It's like week after week of playing in a soccer league, with refs letting the game run its course and having lots of injured players each week. You have to hand out yellow cards and sometimes red ones in a way that ensures, people think more about what they do and not talk first and think later, but you must not hand out cards for petty fouls. To find the middle ground is the art - no one said it's easy, but what I miss is a coherent try to use the moderational powers to get this forum in line.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 10, 2010 12:26 PM |
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So many words so little penalties!
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted October 10, 2010 01:48 PM |
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Quote:
So many words so little penalties!
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DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted October 10, 2010 02:19 PM |
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Quote:
So many words so little penalties!
And who are you to say that when you are just sitting there in the corner watching?
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted October 10, 2010 02:22 PM |
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Looking from the side gives better perspective.
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DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
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Vlaad
Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
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posted October 10, 2010 04:50 PM |
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Edited by Vlaad at 17:27, 10 Oct 2010.
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Quote:
Quote:
So many words so little penalties!
And who are you to say that when you are just sitting there in the corner watching?
He's not a moderator here. His responsibility is the Temple and VW and he's doing a great job. I'm sure he would do a great job in the OSM too, but I doubt he's a masochist. 
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted October 10, 2010 10:42 PM |
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Edited by Corribus at 22:56, 10 Oct 2010.
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@Elodin
Quote:
Since you seem to be saying you don't post negative things about non-atheist religions I will spend Monday making a compilation of your anti-theist remarks as well as the anti-theist remarks of certain others.
Wow, you really need to get a real hobby. If my life gets to the point where I'm spending a whole day - hell, an hour - going through hundreds of internet posts by people I don't even know so that I can claim I'm somehow more righteous than some stranger halfway across the world, then someone please show me mercy and put a bullet into me.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted October 11, 2010 12:45 AM |
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Quote:
What you are saying is (or at least it is coming across as) If somebody that is not a christian does something then it is their belief system that caused it. Yet if somebody claiming to be a Christian does something, Christianity is not to blaim..the individual is.
Since Christianity teaches that murder is sin obviously one can't logicly blame Christianity for murder. Same for rape, molesting children, ect.
There are belief systems in which such things are not wrong. In particular a certain belief system that implies there is no such thing as absolute morality. If there is no absolute morality then rape and murder are not wrong.
Quote:
This will even the playing field, as you so like to say. Nobody can attribute something to a religion or belief. Even and balanced.
Fine, if you will enforce it across the board with equal treatment for all and special treatment for none.
No attributing anything negative to Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, paganism, atheism, Jehovah's Witness, Church of Scientology, Satanism, or any other religion.
No attributing anything negative to any political or economic system. So democrats, Republicans, nor independents or fringe political parties can be criticised. No criticism of the Tea Party.
No criticism of capitalism, socialsim, or communism.
No criticism of America, France, Germany, Britian, Iran, Turkey, or any other nation.
No criticism of any soccer, basketball, or football team or any person on said teams. Might offend someone.
The OSM will be pretty much limited to non-controversial topics so as to be sure no one is offended. I think that will make the moderators' jobs very easy as there will be very little posting.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 11, 2010 01:42 AM |
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Quote:
The OSM will be pretty much limited to non-controversial topics so as to be sure no one is offended. I think that will make the moderators' jobs very easy as there will be very little posting.
Actually, the OSM used to be like that in its early days. It was surprisingly active.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted October 11, 2010 03:28 AM |
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Edited by Elodin at 03:55, 11 Oct 2010.
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Quote:
In any case - IF Elodin is withholding that Atheism is a religion, shouldn't he then treat atheism and especially ATHEISTS with the respect the membership of a religion commands?
What does the CoC say?
Because of the claim has been made that atheists are being nice and respectful towards religion and I am spoiling the love fest I am posting a few recent quotes from JollyJoker. I can probably get a few thousand anti-theist quotes from his previous posts but here just some recent quotes that show he is not posting in the angelic manner in which he seems to be claiming to be. And I quoted some of his direct personal attacks against me as well.
If necessary I can post more (and some of JJ's other posts are quite shocking indeed) and include others who are hostile to theism as well. I did not include every recent quote him calling religious people delusional or supersticious. However, I think I have countered the argument anti-thiests/atheists have put forward that they are being angelic and mean old Elodin is abusing them.
Jolly Joker recent posts
Quote:
--It would certainly be interesting to know, Elodin, what exactly made you such an insufferable, preachy fanatic who drones endlessly on and on, always using the same devoid-of-sense words like mantras, always repeating the same unconnected, husks of sentences which are an insult for every normal human being who does not share your particular religious delusions, always bashing everyone not sharing your specific religious hell as atheists, Marxists, Communists, Liberals, loony tunes, never even bothering to answer the points... but I'm afraid it wouldn't make things less offensive.
And to the rest, am I the only one for whom Elodin's posts look, read and feel like turds on a dinner table? They seem to have something decidedly disgusting - and every day more so.
--Bla bla bla. As usual you fail to see the point.
--Let's not forget that as long Western societies have been dominated by religion there has been a lot of inequality and discrimination as well.
--You could just as well believe that the soul rests in the breath, and if a person breathes the life back into another one, they are doing strange things with the soul. It's just superstition.
If a child needs a blood transfusion, and the parents don't consent for whatever reasons, they should be charged with murder. They can ruin their own life any way they want, but superstition should not lead to children unnecessarily dying.
--The looniest tune I see here starts with an E and ends on a din.
--For the rest, you don't make any sense at all. Defend the right of religiously blinded idiots to kill their children - it's still murder. A child that needs a blood transfusion, is in no condition to argue. Someone else has to make the decision.
And here the parents have no right whatsoever to let their child die because of THEIR personal religious delusions.
It is the CHILD who has the right to be protected from such delusional decisions, getting it killed.
Letting a child die for fear it could forego salvation is murder for superestitious beliefs. You could just as wwll kill a child and then claim it was the anti-christ or something
--The problem is, he doesn't answer anything at all. His ramblings get ever more unconnected....Reading all that crap, I'd really like to see the ire of the State-God come lose on All those looney tune religious fanatics, and take their children away from them.
--Either YOU are unable to understand the problem or you are wilfully stupid:
--However, PARENTS are NOT supposed to sacrifice the life of their children on the altar of religious superstition. ... Children should not die because their parents are religious lunatics.
--What I realize is, that anti-social loony tune pentecostals are extremely intolerant of the rights of children to be protected from their religiously deluded parents who would let them die for superstitious fear instead trusting in a loving god, and want to force society into not only to accept their delusions, but to accept them forcing their delusions onto their unsuspicious and trusting children. Those children wozhld like to be free from the torments of their deluded parents and don't want to bow to a loony uncaring Monster-god.
That's the summit of ignorance, double-moral and outright criminal foolishness.
--Religious freedom and parental education and domination over them.
Frankly, their are too many religious lunatics and fanatics to allow this freely
-- will repeat that letting a child unnecessarily die because of a superstitious fear, a certified and harmless procedure might harm the undying soul of a child, is superstition on the expense of the child.
--Children have to be protected from this, as they have to be protected from religious lunatics who discipine their children by letting them fast to do penance.
--Which means ULTIMATELY, if you think about it, that it is WRONG to teach children that they have to reject a blood tranfusion in order to not endanger their salvation - it is wrong to confront them with such stuff, and a religion which ignores that, CANNOT be right (and if that religion was true, it would still be wrong as was the pertaining god).
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted October 11, 2010 06:09 AM |
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Quote:
Fine, if you will enforce it across the board with equal treatment for all and special treatment for none.
No attributing anything negative to Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, paganism, atheism, Jehovah's Witness, Church of Scientology, Satanism, or any other religion.
No attributing anything negative to any political or economic system. So democrats, Republicans, nor independents or fringe political parties can be criticised. No criticism of the Tea Party.
No criticism of capitalism, socialsim, or communism.
No criticism of America, France, Germany, Britian, Iran, Turkey, or any other nation.
No criticism of any soccer, basketball, or football team or any person on said teams. Might offend someone.
The OSM will be pretty much limited to non-controversial topics so as to be sure no one is offended. I think that will make the moderators' jobs very easy as there will be very little posting.
Hey I would love to. See, we are all human beings. Humans beings do some horrible things, and instead of taking blame LOVE to have something else to blame. For instance some people love the "They did x, y, and z so I have to do it back." *shrugs*. I have a feeling this 'discussion' is going to go on forever. The die is cast though, its time to zip it. Last post on the subject for me, and I encourage the other mods to do the same. You don't have to like it, there is the door. Feel free to use it should you think I am being a tyrant.
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Message received.
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winterfate
Supreme Hero
Water-marked Champion!
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posted October 11, 2010 07:23 AM |
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@Misty:
And funny you should mention the blame game. My best friend had an argument with his ex today and it consisted of her blaming him for the failure of their relationship, and then blaming him for not fighting to fix it.
Err...um, what was I talking about again? I got a bit off track.
The point I'm trying to make is that I agree.
And no, you have a LONG way to go to be a tyrant.
(I sincerely hope you never have to travel down that road though.  )
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If you supposedly care about someone, then don't push them out of your life. Acting like you're not doing it doesn't exempt you from what I just said. - Winterfate
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veco
Legendary Hero
who am I?
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posted October 11, 2010 10:33 AM |
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Edited by veco at 10:33, 11 Oct 2010.
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Reverse psychology, lol.
btw, why does the Jehova thread has 3 stars instead of 2 (and one is strangely separated)
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none of my business.
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted October 11, 2010 10:44 AM |
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I ... don't have a clue. Glitch? *shrugs*
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Message received.
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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted October 11, 2010 01:00 PM |
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Edited by Azagal at 13:01, 11 Oct 2010.
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Quote:
And they'll probably start spouting a bunch of nonsense about authoritarian power hungry mods when you explain the concept of creative interpretation of the rules.
Haaaha . Well there's no arguing with your assesment of the situation on HC but it only really concerns the osm since the other Forums either have active mods (just look at Alci managing the Temple he's so great) or don't need much or any moderation since people in there are already pretty civil (Modders Workshop for example) with each other. Then again it's unfortunately most crucial for the osm to be moderated.
Then again I'm not sure that this:
Quote:
If people are arguing and you can't determine who's at fault, just penalize all of them.
is the way to do it. But I guess that depends on ones point of view. The thing that concerns me though is that Mytical always sees himself as the victim and victimizing yourself doesn't really make your arguments for banning an entire topic any more valid. Hell being the mod of the osm must be a freakin snowty job for sure and I'm sure you've got to take a lot of **** for what you do but you've still got to see the line between criticsm and trolling.
It is not senseless criticsm if people object to you saying something like Quote:
We will step in if people can't stop and think about what they are posting. If we have to ban every religious topic, or penalize for every religious comment..period, we will.
. Simply because you say "We'd like people to think before they post" before you bring out a sentence like the before mentioned doesn't make it any less wrong or any less outrageous. And neither does it mean that the people who critize your for it can't read between the lines btw. Binabik is right this place is one big free for all without any moderation whatsoever. I'm not saying that to make you look bad or anything but it's the state of things wouldn't you agree?
The thing is moderation is not banning a topic. That's just desperation and trying to find the easy way out. I'm not saying you're a tyrant and not anyone else in this thread who's being sincere does. So I don't really care what you do to solve the problem as long as you solve it without banning a topic. Moderating is a Mods responsability and it's not unfair for people to exspect that job to be done is it now? No matter how much you insist on the fact that you can ban a topic or whine about how people are not doing what you're asking them to, you actually can't. Not with any sense of rationality atleast since it will most certainly not solve the problem.
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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