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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted November 11, 2010 03:27 PM |
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Effective moderation starts at being a presence on the board you are moderating. Nobody likes to be penalized by someone who is never around and doesn't show their face. Boards that are moderated by people who are on the board every day and participate in discussions are generally more civil and require less moderation. Certainly there are other personal characteristics that go into making an effective moderator, but simply being there is probably more important than any of them.
No offense to you, Mytical, but the OSM is modded by three people who are never around and therefore don't really have a vested interest in trying to make the place better. I don't think I've seen shadowcaster but two or three times in the six years I've been a member of HC. Angelito has only a handful of posts in the last six months. And you have just admitted that you don't have any time to moderate because of personal issues - and your lack of attention shows in the inconsistent way you've been handing out rewards and penalties and deleted posts lately.
As much as I hate to agree with Elodin - if it's true that he was penalized twice in a thread with no explanation: well that's just completely unfair and wrong. Nobody would appreciate that and our members here deserve better.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 11, 2010 03:53 PM |
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I would like to add, that in the same thread afterwards, Gooch's post was simply edited with the comment, "edited out the personal attacks".
I've no problem with that - but what is right for one should be right for everyone.
However, talking about the moderation doesn't feel like making sense anymore. Been there done that, right? Of course, presence is all on a board like this - it's not that big, there are not too many posts, so you don't need to simply delete stuff and hand out the odd penalty, you can actually de-escalate things by putting on the breaks, before one word leads to another and another and the one too many - like it apparently has been done in the example above.
Anyway. Nice speech, Will, but, but, but. It just doesn't feel right anymore.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted November 11, 2010 04:34 PM |
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JJ, I OSM-d you, can you log in please? 
As for the whole issue: While a certain member often crosses the border, he provokes other to do this in response, too. Which isn't exactly his fault but that's what happens. A few warnings would perhaps do well.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted November 11, 2010 05:50 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 17:52, 11 Nov 2010.
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Quote:
Well, I don't see why negative comments related to religion, the tea party, conservatives or stuff like that should be penalized... though negative personal comments should of course be penalized. I personally think that some of those comments are very very right, but still.
I agree, other than that Mytical said no negative comments were going to be allowed at all about any person, group, or belief and if I did not like it I could "hit the door." Of course then it seems that negative comments were allowed againt Christianity, capitalism, America, conservatives, the tea party and negative comments against me. And yeah, after seeing the negative posts by others that were allowed and asking about it I eventually started posting negative comments about certain beliefs in my comments too. Although no personal attacks against community members.
Moderation that protects certain beliefs and posters and attacks others is simply wrong. If a moderator is unwilling to be fair to all sides he should step down from the position.
October 11:
Quote:
(Elodin)
Quote:
Fine, if you will enforce it across the board with equal treatment for all and special treatment for none.
No attributing anything negative to Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, paganism, atheism, Jehovah's Witness, Church of Scientology, Satanism, or any other religion.
No attributing anything negative to any political or economic system. So democrats, Republicans, nor independents or fringe political parties can['t] be criticised. No criticism of the Tea Party.
No criticism of capitalism, socialsim, or communism.
No criticism of America, France, Germany, Britian, Iran, Turkey, or any other nation.
No criticism of any soccer, basketball, or football team or any person on said teams. Might offend someone.
The OSM will be pretty much limited to non-controversial topics so as to be sure no one is offended. I think that will make the moderators' jobs very easy as there will be very little posting.
(Mytical)
Hey I would love to. See, we are all human beings. Humans beings do some horrible things, and instead of taking blame LOVE to have something else to blame. For instance some people love the "They did x, y, and z so I have to do it back." *shrugs*. I have a feeling this 'discussion' is going to go on forever. The die is cast though, its time to zip it. Last post on the subject for me, and I encourage the other mods to do the same. You don't have to like it, there is the door. Feel free to use it should you think I am being a tyrant.
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1910
Known Hero
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posted November 11, 2010 05:56 PM |
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Edited by 1910 at 18:05, 11 Nov 2010.
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I agree with you Elodin. If you are busy in real life and have personal troubles then you're not right to be a moderator of a forum. As has been shown, you (Mytical) aren't right as you've made some inconsistent decisions. That penalty you gave to Elodin was, to put it lightly (lol  ), a disgrace. You can blame whatever you want but at the end of the day, YOU have to take responsibility for YOUR actions. No use blaming other stuff. If you do have troubles, step down and let somebody else who is able to do the job properly be a moderator here otherwise we'll continue to get inconsistent moderating.
I find it funny that quote you made, Elodin, of what Mytical has said.
I'll highlight the bit I found ironic: "Humans beings do some horrible things, and instead of taking blame LOVE to have something else to blame.".
Mytical, you're doing exactly that. Instead of blaming yourself and saying "Hey, I made a wrong decision" and trying to fix it, you're passing the blame to your real life problems. Like I've said before, if you have real life problems and you're making inconsistent, stupid decisions, then you should step down and let somebody else moderate. You're clearly not right for the OSM if these decisions are made.
If you're all wondering, no I'm not attacking the moderators but am trying to stick up for somebody who, in my opinion, has been treated quite unfairly by the moderators (well, moderator). I'm also not attacking you Mytical as you should know by now that I do like talking to you and I think you're a great poster but it's time to start taking responsibility and not blaming other things. Just don't come onto the forum until everything is sorted or step down from the position so there are no troubles. It's not right that other members are treated unfairly because you've got some issues.
I mean, I could use me as an example. I screwed over a lot of people with my behaviour towards people. I lost the respect of nearly everybody here. I lost some good friends as well. I blamed other things. I blamed my real life, my anger, Immigration troubles in the UK and all that. At the end of the day, if I have some personal issues, then it's not right for me to take them out on people on a forum who respect me and like me as a person. That's, in a way, betraying them. They're my friends and it's wrong of me to have done what I did and I do take full responsibility for it. Now, I've learnt from that and am trying my best to amend the mistakes I have done. While not the exact same situation as yours, I guess it can be similar in that I should not have blamed other things. I should have taken the full responsibility at the time. Of course, I shouldn't have done it at all but I did and there's nothing I can do to erase that fact.
Just take a little time off, Mytical. If things get the better of you then it's no use trying to handle a forum where you're interacting with so many people as mistakes are most likely going to happen.
Again, I have no problems with you but I think you screwed up this time.
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angelito
Honorable
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proud father of a princess
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posted November 11, 2010 07:55 PM |
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@ Corribus
Only because I have just a little amount of posts the last months, doesn't mean I am not frequently present on the board anymore.
I just have much work the last weeks, so I hardly can log in longer than a few minutes a day since that.
I will raise my presence here again in the next days and will take care of the OSM again.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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wog_edn
Promising
The Nothingness
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posted November 11, 2010 08:47 PM |
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I have to stick with Angelito, I've seen him around pretty often imo. I don't post much anymore, but I still log in daily and read up on what's happened.
Quote:
I agree, other than that Mytical said no negative comments were going to be allowed at all about any person, group, or belief
Elodin, you do realize that from another point of view your comments about for example atheism could be considered an insult? As others don't consider their statements about for example christianity insults, but you do.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted November 11, 2010 09:03 PM |
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Hi Angelito - nice to see you post again!
By the way, that wasn't meant as a criticism of you having too much to do in "real life". It was just a statement of opinion - that I think it's hard to be an effective moderator when you're not emotionally invested in the job.
I mean, let's be honest - every time Mytical makes some sort of moderating action, it's usually prefaced or accompanied by "I don't really care," or "It is what it is." or "If this is what you really want." You can almost feel the heavy sigh every time he posts. Maybe I'm wrong, but it just doesn't even seem like Mytical enjoys being a mod and finds it some sort of collosal burden. Not to be blunt or overly critical, but is that the kind of attitude that makes for an effective mod?
Maybe I'm totally out of line for saying that, but I just can't help but feel that Mytical just doesn't even want to be doing this. And if you don't like doing something, how you be expected to do it well? 
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted November 11, 2010 10:01 PM |
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Edited by angelito at 22:02, 11 Nov 2010.
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Mytical offered his help joining the OSM board because of the lack of active moderators that time. It wasn't his first choice, and will never be his prefered forum here..
He also realized I wasn't that active lately and didn't want the OSM to be not moderated at all. That's why he took care of some issues. But to handle the OSM and all the threads and posts coming up only in a few days is hard for only 1 guy.
So please give him credit for being present and trying to help wherever he thought it's needed. Even though he may not have made the very best decision in all mentioned cases from your (all members) point of you.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted November 11, 2010 10:17 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 22:41, 11 Nov 2010.
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Quote:
Quote:
I agree, other than that Mytical said no negative comments were going to be allowed at all about any person, group, or belief
Elodin, you do realize that from another point of view your comments about for example atheism could be considered an insult? As others don't consider their statements about for example christianity insults, but you do.
There is absolutely no way that anyone can say the statements I quoted were not "negative" comments.
I waited a full week from Mytical's proclaimation that no negative statements were going to be allowed to be made about any person, group or belief to post another comment which pointed out that Mytical's procaimation was not in fact being enforced. I waited for a response after that but one never came.
So after well more than a week, probably about two weeks after Mytical said no negative comments were going to be allowed before I made any negative comment myself because I anticipated that what has now happened would happen.
So if anyone tries to say that I provoked the negative comments of others they are in fact not telling the truth as the evidence clearly shows.
The thing I want is for everyone to be treated the same. If atheists are allowed to make negative comments about non-athest religins, atheism sholud not be protected against criticism. If liberals can trash conservative ideas conservatives should be able to trash liberal ideas. Ect. And of course personal attacks should not be allowed on one community member and disallowed on another.
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JollyJoker
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posted November 12, 2010 08:23 AM |
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Let me quote myself from two pages ago:
Quote:
Clearly, it must be possible to express negative opinions about things, whether it's atheism, Christian Belief, any other religion or known public figure(head)s.
It MUST be possible for Elodin to express his opinion about atheism. It MUST be possible for everyone else to do the same for other things.
It must be possible to discuss these things in a halfway civilized manner.
In other words, it can't be the thing as such - it must be THE WAY things are "discussed".
It shouldn't be that difficult to see that you have to be able to express an opinion, even if it is negative.
However, the more negative a comment is, the more carefully and unconfrontational it has to be phrased. This is, in extremis, even true for personal remarks.
"You are a stupid idiot", is clearly an insult - it's proof for a "loss of words" as well, an inability to communicate. It's somewhat a summary of a personal feeling, but the only thing it communicates is confrontation. The offender begs for a penalty.
"As I see it, you only argue in empty phrases (two examples). I'm not prepared to further argue on this level of discussion that I deem unsatisfactory and not beneficial. I think, further study of the matter of X might further a deeper understanding of the issue on your side, and until then I refuse to continue the discussion."
These things should be possible.
But note, that this was the final word of the poster - poster somewhat gagged him- or herself. If the person poster means now answers, for example:
"I can support my statements with serious proof (serious links), and while some do consider them empty phrases it's still an ongoing and undecided discussion. In my opinion you are not even slighly prepared to accept the possibility that you could be wrong, which is a pity, since you cannot prove what you claim to be right. Your refusal to further discuss this matter seems to me a last resort to bug out."
This is a serious answer, no insult. I think it is vital to see, that the first poster cannot answer anymore now - first poster finished the discussion, and until first poster takes the statement back no answer is possible.
In fact, an answer reiterating the opinion of the first post should now be moderated - it would be purely confrontational.
It's the task of the moderators - the referees - to set the "tone of play", and the referees must be consistent in their decisions. The important thing is to keep in mind that it is the task of the referee to make their calls with the aim of enabling a fluid and interesting game.
Refs make mistakes as well, even the good ones, but the good ones make not many of them and things never ever seem to escalate into calling the whole game off.
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angelito
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proud father of a princess
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posted November 12, 2010 11:06 AM |
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I agree in general.
"Negative" comments should be possible about EVERY issue, as long as it doesn't turn into an insult.
So if all participants keep an eye on that "rule", I am fine with expressions of own opinions. Watch the tone!
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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JollyJoker
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posted November 12, 2010 11:38 AM |
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So now we have a general platform on which to stand, we have to establish why it is (too) confrontational to say:
"The immoral looney tune Marxist Democrats who want to steal from the good workers to allow the lazy bums to stay lazy"
as would be (too) cofrontational to say;
"The unscrupulous looney tune fascist Republicans who want to steal from the poor so the rich get even richer."
THIS undis Elodin's style, and THIS is exactly what is escalating things. Why?
1) "Immoral" is just a general slur - it doesn't say anything specific.
2) "looney tune" is an insult; it doubts mental sanity. It's an assessment based on ones own standards of what would be reasonable and sane and has only personal meaning.
3) "Marxist" has a clear definition, and the description that follows doesn't fit that definition;
4) Neither the correct definition of Marxist nor the wrong one fits to the Democrats while
5) the description of what the Democrats want is made without context to reality; it could just as well be said that the Democrats want to enslave everyone, snow everyone in the ass or rape little babies.
Compare with something like, "the Democrats have developed a tendency to ignore the actual purpose and meaning of the constitution and involve the almighty power of the state too much in things the state shouldn't meddle with. Welfare should be left to private institutions, and when the state by force takes money from the working people to hand it out to the non-workers, this is not only against what the Bible says (quote), but to me it would suggest a desastrous turn to a more Marxist oriented society, which I wouldn't want in the US and which I would deem rather foolish."
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Salamandre
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Wog refugee
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posted November 12, 2010 11:44 AM |
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Why don't you stick to your first decision, which was to deliberately skip his posts? It was a wise one, and anything else will bring you trouble and anger. That guy is a forum breaker.
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JollyJoker
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 12, 2010 12:13 PM |
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Salamandre, I don't understand your post.
I just want to communicate why so many people are pissed off by Elodin's postings, eventually, and what is escalating things.
Of course it doesn't help, that at this point a lot of people have very short fuses when it comes to a discussion with him, amounting to comments, that basically say, "don't start again with that snow".
Which is, why an effort is necessary, an effort to get things straightend out.
I'm positive that Elodin is absolutely willing and capable to post more unconfrontational, provided everyone else does the same to him - and moderators are having an eye on things are willing to sort things out when it indeed GETS confrontational.
I mean, it's time the OSM develops a bit more class again. There IS the VW, where you always can lose a quick "X sucks" without rhyme or reason, but here we should maybe make a more conscious effort to dig what everyone tries to communicate and to discuss things and not bash them.
Maybe we all need just a little bit more patience with each other.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted November 12, 2010 02:56 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 15:14, 12 Nov 2010.
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Quote:
.
I just want to communicate why so many people are pissed off by Elodin's postings, eventually, and what is escalating things.
To say that my posts escalate things is absolutely and totally false. As has always been the case, the anti-thiests, anti-capitalists, anti-Americans, and liberals were having a field day making whatever smears against the things they hate that they wanted to. The moderators were all fine and good with letting that go on for several weeks until I started posting negative comments about atheism, liberalism, Marxism, and liberalism. Then as always the tables get turned and the anti-theist crowd starts trying to blame me for the problem.
The quotes I quoted from the first 7 pages of the tea party were before I had said anything negative at all.
Some people love to constantly trash Christianity/religion, capitalism, America, and conservativism but can't stand it if anything negative is said about their pet dogmas.
So let us review what happened in the current situation:
1) For several weeks after Mytical's "no negative comments" about any belief, person, idea, religion, group, economic system, ect was issued the group that holds beliefs counter to mine were allowed to make all the negative comments they wanted to make with absolutely no repurcussions.
2) I posted a questiuon asking if the "no negative comments" rule was only going to be enforced if certain groups were criticized. The question was posted a week after the "no negative comments" rule was put in place.
3) Direct personal attacks were made against me.
3) The moderators did not reply to my posted question about the enforcement of the "no negative comments" rule.
4) Some period of time after I posted my question about enforcement (at least a week, I could look in the thread to see exactly) I began to post negative comments about the ideas of "the other side."
5) Now some people want to say I am the cause and everything is a love fest if I am not involved in a discussion.
6) The pattern that is repeated over and over again is that "the other side" makes whatever comments they want to make. Bashing of religion, bashing of America, bashing of conservatism, ect, and personal attacks against me.
Then when I critisize their ideas (without making personal attacks) I am the one to blame. Imagine that.
7) This is the second time within about 3 months that some moderator has given me 2 stealth penalties at a time. The moderator refuses to say why or even to identify himself.
Oh, calling Marxism loony is certainly no worse than what Marxists have said about capitalism. And religious people were called delusional long before athesim was called a delusional religion.
Edit: Oh, the moderators of the same board need to have the same ideas of what they are going to enfore or no one will know waht is allowed or not. One moderator can't be saying "no negative comments" and the other "negative comments are fine."
Quote:
I'm positive that Elodin is absolutely willing and capable to post more unconfrontational, provided everyone else does the same to him - and moderators are having an eye on things are willing to sort things out when it indeed GETS confrontational.
When debating ideas the one "confronts" the opinions of others. If one attacks the statements of the "opponent" in the debate that should be ok. Attacking ther person himself should not be ok.
I am willing to post in whatever manner everyone else posts. However, saying that a certain word is too confrontatinoal when applied to an idea simply will not work. If that policy is put in place we will need a list of forbidden words and forbidden phrases. Which I think is silly.
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Doomforge
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Retired Hero
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posted November 12, 2010 03:17 PM |
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"They call me names so I call them names too". Great justification for CoC breaching, lol. I thought such philosophy belongs to kindergarden. If someone insults you, report to mod, and remain polite. You will do a hell lot better impression on both posters and moderators alike.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Elodin
Promising
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Free Thinker
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posted November 12, 2010 03:24 PM |
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Quote:
"They call me names so I call them names too". Great justification for CoC breaching, lol. I thought such philosophy belongs to kindergarden. If someone insults you, report to mod, and remain polite. You will do a hell lot better impression on both posters and moderators alike.
Critisizing an idea is not a breech of the COC.
That is not what I said. I made no personal attacks although personal attacks were made against me.
I was pointing out that I made no negative comments about atheism, Marxism, or liberalism for several weeks after the ruling and I asked for the moderators to explain the enforcement and received no reply.
After it became obvious the rule was not being enforced I felt free to begin to use negative words about the statements of "the other side."
Some people want one side of the debate to be gimped in the debate while they want to be free to say whatever crosses their mind.
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Revelation
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JollyJoker
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posted November 12, 2010 03:40 PM |
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Elodin, it's not a specific word - it's the combination of them.
To demonstrate this, I can develop the problem - hypothetically -with "delusional religion".
"I think, all religion is delusional - people are assuming a lot of things they have no proof for and start living accordingly, as if everything was fact. I call that delusional."
Let's say, that is the statement that starts a religious debate. The issue is - is religion delusional or not, and everyone can give their opinion. Nothing wrong with it.
However, consider this statement:
"The idea that delusional Christian Americans lead a holy war against so-called rogue countries who are supposedly supporting terrorists is appalling."
See the difference? We take the delusion of Christians for granted and combine the delusion with Americans - and now suddenly every Christian American will feel somewhat alienated - it's an aggressive, insulting statement designed to slam a big club over lots of heads.
I agree with you, that - just considering the last few weeks - people have made all kinds of "negative comments" while you were posting, let's call it "in a reasonable way".
But there is a history to it, and history is, what we have to fight against as well - just ask a couple of Jews about Germans.
Just think about this: How will you explain a homosexual that in God's view he's a sinner?
Will you - unconfrontational - tell him that the Bible says this and that and therefore it seems to be pretty clear that God seems to consider homosexual behaviour sin?
Or will you tell him that God doesn't want snows like him in his heavenly reach and will send him to hell?
If you do it the first way, this is what should be done here as well.
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Elodin
Promising
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Free Thinker
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posted November 12, 2010 07:09 PM |
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I have a request that I think is quite reasonable. If no moderator steps forward to say he is the one who have me the stealth penalties and explain what I did to deserve them, that those stealth penalties be removed and my QPs restored.
@JJ
Quote:
I agree with you, that - just considering the last few weeks - people have made all kinds of "negative comments" while you were posting, let's call it "in a reasonable way".
But there is a history to it, and history is, what we have to fight against as well - just ask a couple of Jews about Germans.
Please don't claim that I have a history of abusive language towards anti-Chrisitans, Marxists, anti-Americans, or liberals and that is the only reason they use strong language against my beliefs. I can quite easily prove that such a premise is false.
Would you like me to pull up quotes of before I even started posting in the OSM and show the strong rhetoric that was continually launched against Christianity?
The entire reason I began posting in the OSM to begin with was all the lies told about Christianity. And yeah, Christians were called delusinoal here LOOOOOOONG before I showed that "delusional" easily applies to atheism. Again, I can easily prove this with quotes. If you want me to pull them up just give the word.
The problems I see are:
1) Some people love to use strong language against things they don't believe in but cry rivers of tears when strong language is used to describe their beliefs.
2) Some people continue to use direct personal attacks and are allowed to get away with it.
3) Biased moderation.
4) Moderators not agreeing on what is to be enforced.
I could care less if you call Christianity delusinal as long as I am allowed to address atheism in the same manner. An equal playing field is all I have ever asked for and for some reason that seems to be a rather elusive dream.
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Revelation
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