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| Thread: Provoking a pedophile!! Not a good idea |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Aculias
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
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posted July 22, 2006 04:12 AM |
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So then you created HC 
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Dreaming of a Better World
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russ
Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
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posted July 22, 2006 05:20 AM |
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Edited by russ at 05:25, 22 Jul 2006.
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Angelito said:
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Second, this was an example for the statement: "Let them kids make their own faults / experience. To a certain degree yes, but there will be a point where i will say NO. Do you let your small baby put her/his little hand on an active hotplate, so it can make its OWN experience? Guess not. So itīs very naive to make such a statement for every case.
Well, actually, I disagree here. Until the little kid actually touches the hot plate, he will feel the urge to touch it. Trying to pull him away will only make it worse. But once he DOES touch it, he will NEVER want to touch it again and he will be careful with other similar things. And if you told him not to touch it and then he touched it anyways and got burned, he WILL respect your advices A LOT more next time (when it will matter the most). Unless your kid is about to make a MAJOR mistake (which IMHO should not happen if you do a good job parenting), you should not try to impose your will.
Quote:
@Russ
My daughter is 16. And u told me u have been to Cuba some times. So i guess u know how the girls in that age look like and how they "move their body". You canīt compare that to "normal" middle european or western countries. They are different, and they have that in their blood. And the most important thing is: they KNOW about their appeal very well..
Well, if she is Cuban and she feels like being Cuban, then why not let her be herself? It is natural for a woman to be attractive and desirable by men, why would you want to force her to do something against her nature? I think she'll respect you more if you have the ability to understand that and instead sneaking out to see that biker or just leaving with him, one day she just might talk to you and ask you if it is a good idea to keep seeing him. And that will be your time to shine and actually make and advice that will be listened to.
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Aculias
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
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posted July 22, 2006 05:30 AM |
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To an extint.
I dont think a parent wants thier daughter to go in the public with a skirt going down to her hips
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Dreaming of a Better World
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russ
Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
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posted July 22, 2006 05:41 AM |
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I understand how difficult it may be for a parent, but prohibiting certain things will only make them more desireable. I am not forcing my opinion on anyone. I can be wrong, obviously. I am just saying how I think it should be.
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kookastar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
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posted July 22, 2006 08:29 AM |
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Provoking a pedophile!! Not a good idea
What does it take to provoke a pedophile?
Not much I'm guessing, and I am not sure that 'sexy adult style clothes' necessarily does more for them than a school uniform. Sorry, it is sick, but I don't think the clothes the kids are wearing is really a big part of the fantasy for them. I don't really know though - I am not one, nor have I researched this, it is just an opinion.
I agree that communication is very important, and it is essential that children are encouraged to go out into the real world and experience things with friends rather than being stuck at home on the net.
Some issues have arisen where parents are too 'scared' to let their kids out - especially at night - or even walk to school for 'fear of attack'. Fact is they are more at risk of being involved in a car accident if you drive them than they are of being abducted.
The fear itself is real though, and it is hieghtened by the media and news broadcasting the few occassions when these bad things do happen to the point where parents feel it is their responsibility to protect their children at all costs. Fair enough, I might feel this way too, but life itself is a bit of a gamble.
Children need to learn how to make descisions and choices, learn from their mistakes (like Russ and others have already stated). All you can do is educate them about possible problems and strategies for dealing with these and then hope for the best.
They will try things out for themselves anyway. {just like we did}
This is going off the topic though - pedophiles...
Clothes come and go in fashion, and kids see the way their 'idols' dress on TV and in music clips etc and of course they want to be like them. I wore one glove when I was their age
I don't think this should be blamed for child molestation. {although Michael Jackson  }
Another point - aren't most children who suffer from sexual abuse, victims of people close to the family? This has been the case for all the girls I know that have had this happen to them - relatives, neighbours, friends. Or {in the case of boys especially}members of religious organisations... {another story, I am not trying to stir it up}.
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2XtremeToTake
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted July 22, 2006 08:34 AM |
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Quote:
To an extint.
I dont think a parent wants thier daughter to go in the public with a skirt going down to her hips
Going down to her hips? How does that work? Don't most skirts START at the hips?
Speaking from a 16 year old teenage males standpoint, I've run into the fair share of girls who have been allowed no freedom, a decent amount of freedom, and too much freedom.
The ones that are allowed no or very little freedom by their parents are usually the ones that I've noticed end up being the bad ones. At a teenage age, you will usually go against the wishes of their parents (trust me, I know from experience).
They are allowed little freedom at the home, therefore when they go out (like school) they are always the ones acting up, doing drugs, just to spite their parents. etc. You can't force decent standards upon a child, you can show them - but ultimately it is up to them whether they decide they want.
However, I've also met people from the other extremes raised the same way. They are the really quiet, socially inept kids. The ones that are usually ignored and/or picked on.
I'm not saying that every kid that is sheltered will turn out this way, but from my observations, thats what I've noticed.
Oh, and in a high school environment...girls that dress snowty will usually be taken as so. She will usually have no girl friends, and the guys will never take her seriously. So, she only hurts herself in that manner. Being unpopular in high school, especcially amongst your own gender, is definitly not a good thing.
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I almost had a psychic girlfriend but she left me before we met.
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Frick
Known Hero
and eternal n00b.
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posted July 22, 2006 01:51 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
To an extint.
I dont think a parent wants thier daughter to go in the public with a skirt going down to her hips
Going down to her hips? How does that work? Don't most skirts START at the hips?
Wasn't that the point?
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Hey you, see me, pictures crazy, all the world I've seen before me passing by
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Aculias
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
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posted July 22, 2006 02:45 PM |
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Exactly Xtreme .
Even though I was being sarcastic on very short skirts.
Parent dont want thier young 12 yr old daughter wearing skirts where you can see arse.
Thats like an invitation to get raped.
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Dreaming of a Better World
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted July 22, 2006 03:16 PM |
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Quote:
..Well, actually, I disagree here. Until the little kid actually touches the hot plate, he will feel the urge to touch it. Trying to pull him away will only make it worse. But once he DOES touch it, he will NEVER want to touch it again and he will be careful with other similar things. And if you told him not to touch it and then he touched it anyways and got burned, he WILL respect your advices A LOT more next time (when it will matter the most). Unless your kid is about to make a MAJOR mistake (which IMHO should not happen if you do a good job parenting), you should not try to impose your will.
Quote:
Well, if she is Cuban and she feels like being Cuban, then why not let her be herself? It is natural for a woman to be attractive and desirable by men, why would you want to force her to do something against her nature? I think she'll respect you more if you have the ability to understand that and instead sneaking out to see that biker or just leaving with him, one day she just might talk to you and ask you if it is a good idea to keep seeing him. And that will be your time to shine and actually make and advice that will be listened to.
No offense here Russ, but you are a very good example for my first statement. Letīs talk again when u have kids. I would love to see a pic where your baby touches a red hot plate and u stand besides and do nothing but watch 
Theory and Practice are two completely different things.
And the thing with the clothes....just think about your girlfriend. Would be interesting to see what goes on in your mind if she wanna go out without you and want to wear the clothes i described. If there wont be any strange feelings in your stomach, u really should think about your heterosexual attitude again (j/k). And itīs "only" your gf...NOT your daughter.
You canīt "imagine" what goes on in a parents mind if uīve never been father or mother.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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russ
Promising
Supreme Hero
blah, blah, blah
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posted July 22, 2006 04:00 PM |
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Ok, I guess I'll just keep my views to myself from now on, because every parent in here uses "you don't have kids, therefore you are wrong" argument.
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friendofgunnar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
able to speed up time
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posted July 22, 2006 06:08 PM |
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Here's what I know about this. Every parent I've ever met has said something to me along the lines of "You'll really only understand when you have kids." Not once have I ever run across a parent who's said to "My ideas about child-rearing are pretty much the same now as before I had kids."
Trying to put myself in their shoes I've come up with an analogy. I've got tons of creative projects that I'm working on at all times. I'm extremely protective of these projects. I make backups, photocopies, and I use protective gear where applicable. Now I imagine spending 14 years on one creative project and this 14 year old project hasn't seen as much of the world as I have and therefore doesn't know of all the potential dangers. But of course I have to let this project go out into the world eventually. I'm pretty sure I would be devestated then if this project that I had spent so much time on inadvertantly destroyed itself because I had let it go before it was completely ready to be let go.
So even though I don't have kids I believe I have a fairly good understanding of why parents tend to lean towards the "protective" aspect as opposed to the "have to let it them go" aspect.
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bjorn190
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jebus maker
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posted July 23, 2006 12:01 AM |
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Quote:
1.My question for you is at what point do these women take responsibility for themselves and their actions that may lead up to something like this?
2.When do parents need to be held accountable for what their children are doing on the computer?
3. I would love to hear feedback from anyone that has had to deal with this issue..
Thanks
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1. It's our collective responsibility to make sure we live in a society where anyone can walk around dressed in whatever they feel like, and feel and be safe. You cant blame someone for dressing a certain way or living their lives without bars on the windows.
2. Parents should be held accountable for what kind of upbringing they give their children. Too little or too much control is bad. But children should be allowed to learn how to use the computer as a tool for freedom, social life, work, and getting wealthy.
3. I think for the specific issue here, I think the kids need guidelines and rules, but still maintain the freedom to live their lives and express themselves.
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Gom_Jabbar
Promising
Famous Hero
Revealer of Truth
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posted July 23, 2006 12:48 AM |
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Here's an interesting movie you should all watch.
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Valeriy
Mage of the Land
Naughty, Naughty Valeriy
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posted July 23, 2006 01:29 AM |
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I'd agree with the hot plate example, I think it illustrates the "ideal" scenario in my opinion - parent as informer and supporter, but not a dictator. Then of course if your child is running under a tractor, you have to grab them instead of politely suggesting that they may die from doing what they are doing, but it also should raise a question of what makes them behave this way, and whether something about parenting has anything to do with it.
Then another question that is often associated is boundaries for children. I've observed a few different families thinking about this.
One extreme is when a child is told what to do without even a justification. If the order is not obeyed, there is punishment of the amount that is required to break the child into submission. This is a case of "you're a child, you don't know what's right (if you think you do, you're wrong), you do what you're told because I'm big and powerful, resistance will result in pain, you have no other options". You can guess what kind of attitudes this child will likely have in later life.
Another opposite is when a parent is polite to their child - the parent names rules, child breaks the rules and the parent is politely trying to explain to the child why they shouldn't have done that, and asks them again to do it right, repeating "please". This is the case of "there are not much consequences from breaking the rules and being disrespectful, do whatever you want, as long as you act nice about it afterwards and you won't have any negative consequences". Needless to say this child is likely to have an oversized ego and problems with over-indulgence and lack of self-control.
There's also a scenario where the parent always helps their child out of trouble, like a cushion between stupid actions and their consequences. This child never hit the dirt and lay there, they never learned to get up. This child fell very low afterwards, instinctively waiting for the parent to rescue them and do everything for them.
So when I watch these, I ask myself, what is right? This is my opinion so far.
I think rules are necessary. There are rules in the world, and home/family is the mini-model of the world. The way child deals with the rules at home is the way they're likely to deal with the rules in life. For example, the rules and how I'd go about them:
- don't break my things. If my things are broken by my child, I don't think I'd shout at them or hit them, I'd recover the cost from their allowance if they have one, or I'd just prevent them from touching or using my similar things for a while, for obvious reason that I don't want those things broken. If they break their own toys deliberately, I would also not make hysteria about it, I just wouldn't replace their toy for quite some time, so they are left to experience having a broken toy as a consequence of their actions.
- lying. If they lie to me, I woudn't make punishments, I'd just stop listening and trusting them for a while, so they get to live with mistrust and interpersonal distance that comes as a result of lies. Once again, direct experince of action and consequences.
- stealing. Same again, no shouting or beating. I'd recover the item or its cost. Then I'd "steal" something the child holds to similar value and retain it for a while to give them the experience of the consequences of stealing to the victim.
Basically, I think shouting and beating are primitive means of conditioning that are used on animals (which I don't necessarily approve in itself). In an ineffective example with an animal, the owner beats the dog for running away when the dog returns after a few days. The dog may well get the message that it's being beaten for coming back. The essence of beating and shouting is to inflict pain in return for the pain inflicted. Often with parents the pain inflicted from the child is to the parent's ego (which is their own problem), but they engage in physical retribution because they are big and they can. This method is not much different from primitive monkeys really, and makes no use of the brain. Human thinking and language are hereby not used to design learning, but to design painful punishments and stinging words. It's like having a computer and using it like a rock to hit someone on the head.
If a parent actually wants to teach the child something, a mirror experience has to be given. All people, especially children, learn best by experience. This is how children think, it can actually be observed in real time because they are such quick learners. The child does something, and experiences the consequences. If the consequences experienced are undesirable, the child won't do it again. If desirable / neutral, the child is likely to repeat the behaviour. In fact, after a positive experience, it usually takes about 2-5 negative ones to de-condition.
But majority of the parents don't seem to know how to teach experientially at all. Most often what they do is condition the child that doing what they were told/expected not to do = pain. Once that is conditioned, the child will instinctively fear pain from doing against what they are told/expected not to do. This fundamental conditioning is present in most people. It is the foundation of dictatoral control, the embeded root principle of obedience. Of course it also builds great resentment and mistrust. Any parent who applies such conditioning reduces their future chances for sucess in teaching by any other method.
I just ask parents not to flame me. Yes, I'm not a parent, and yes, I don't know what I'll do when/if I'll be one. These are ideas and to be taken only by those who like them, not some preaching of absolute applicability. However at this stage I think I will be applying these ideas or their evolved form when I am a parent, or at least trying hard to do that.
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You can wait for others to do it, but if they don't know how, you'll wait forever.
Be an example of what you want to see on HC and in the world.
http://www.heroesofmightandmagic.com
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Squirrel_God
Tavern Dweller
Derranged Theist
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posted July 23, 2006 09:25 AM |
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Hmmm...I've been reading through these posts (I'm a very recent member) and...
One thing - there should be a large distinction between paedophilic attraction and normal, heterosexual attraction (in this case). Paedophilic attraction usually doesn't come from viewing a child (whether male or female) in adult clothes (dressed to look older and/or wearing make-up) - it comes from viewing a child as a helpless little being (exactly - a child, with whom they may assume a dominant role), that's an object of their sexual arrousal. It is a disease and should be treated.
An adult male heterosexual *may* be attracted to a girl who is underage (15-18...or whatever is applicable) who dresses like an adult, acts like an adult - and let's not forget - girls tend to grow up more quickly than boys, so there are a lot of underage girls who look much older than they really are. This can happen, but if it *is* a normal situation and the girl doesn't hide the fact that she is underage, then I think the potential suitor of that young lady, confronted by the clientele of a public place will back off. Of course, sometimes these young ladies lie about their years, thus giving their potential suitor a green light to continue their...ahem...plan. And I'm not speaking silly-talk here - I know many male heterosexuals who approached a girl, only to find out that she is underage - after which they backed off. The problem is that there are still too many twisted minds out there, who won't back off, and instead even become aggressive. Actually (I intend no offense with the next term), there is a term for underage girls who look older - jail bait. Why? Because it is enoguh for you to be seen (as an adult) approaching an underage girl, cause you think she is an adult - and bang! If you are seen by other people, you can get your bottom sued...that's why I only approach older girls - tis' much more safer. And, yes, the above-mentioned has happened to me as well, but I was 18 and she was 16, so that's no basis for accusations of paedophilia. She looked at least 18...if not even older than me at that time.
So, what to do? Pray for the best and teach our children everything we can. At one point or another, they will leave anyway - so it is better if they learn about the real world as soon as possible. If it's a bad thing - start theoretically. As my parents explained the facts of life to me (once, a long time ago) so shall I to my children one day. And it's never too early to start talking about these subjects. Since they can't be controled, at least prepare them, I believe that is the first and foremost duty of any parent. Preparation is also a means of protection.
I have been offered ecstasy on many occasions, yet I turned it down. Why? Because I learned that drugs are a 'bad' thing and heard it constantly during my adolescence AND even before that - from my parents. Oh, and I'm not the most obedient kid - I had my share of trouble with alcohol, smoking, staying out late, getting into fights, etc. - but all those experiences made me a better person, because we tend to learn more from bad experiences. How we will use that knowledge, that is a part of our up-bringing. If one's parents tell them that alcohol is 'bad' when used in large quantities, there is a chance that a child won't even touch the thing. Most probably, it will - but once it gets a nasty hangover, gets really sick from it, maybe even in trouble because of it - it will realize why their parents told them so. The 'hot stove' example, once again.
And I know my parents worried about me (they still do), but they knew that they can protect me only to an extent - not from everything in this world.
The example with the 14-year old girls is very familiar. I have seen this things happen almost anywhere. This is *mainly* the shopkeeper's fault, because he sold them alcohol without ID-ing them first. I even reported some of the shopkeepers to the local authorities for doing this. After the first warning they acted more responsibly - even I got ID-ed a couple of times because I look quite young. At least I proved to myslef that the system can work and that laws can be enforced. Try it out, if you haven't already. It is actually EVERY citizen's duty to report any form of abuse/misuse of laws - so if you see a shopkeeper selling alcohol/tobbaco products to kids - report it. We can all make change - the question is: Are we going to sit here and complain OR go out and do something about the things we don't like. There are many groups/neighbourhood watches and such that will gladly intervene - if it's a problem that you feel deeply about, help them.
Regards,
Squirrel God
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Divine heritage is a human trait.
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2XtremeToTake
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted July 23, 2006 10:21 AM |
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Quote:
The example with the 14-year old girls is very familiar. I have seen this things happen almost anywhere. This is *mainly* the shopkeeper's fault, because he sold them alcohol without ID-ing them first. I even reported some of the shopkeepers to the local authorities for doing this. After the first warning they acted more responsibly - even I got ID-ed a couple of times because I look quite young. At least I proved to myslef that the system can work and that laws can be enforced. Try it out, if you haven't already. It is actually EVERY citizen's duty to report any form of abuse/misuse of laws - so if you see a shopkeeper selling alcohol/tobbaco products to kids - report it. We can all make change - the question is: Are we going to sit here and complain OR go out and do something about the things we don't like. There are many groups/neighbourhood watches and such that will gladly intervene - if it's a problem that you feel deeply about, help them.
Hey man! Stop doing that! If you report all the shopkeepers that do that, who else will I get my supply of alcohol from!!! ..Just kidding.
Anyways, in all seriousness - talking from experience it isn't usually the shopkeepers that sell it to the minors. Whenever me and my friends want a drink, whether it be just a few of us hanging out or a wild party, we usually pay a friend (usually an adult brother of one of my friends, or a cousin, etc.) To go and purchase it for us.
Sure, I know it's wrong, and sure, I know when I have kids I will get mad and punish them when they do the same thing, just like mine do to me whenever I get caught.. But, oh well..
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I almost had a psychic girlfriend but she left me before we met.
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Frick
Known Hero
and eternal n00b.
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posted July 23, 2006 10:49 AM |
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A thought on raising children
No, I don't have kids om my own, but, as many others, I think I have first hand information as I've always had LOT's of kids around me (I have 7 siblings, so that makes a lot of nephews and stuff ), and the only thing I can say for sure is that there is no "this is right" or "this is wrong". Every kid is different and requires different "styles" of parenting to become "succesfull" (insert whatever you consider be succesfull here; whealt, health, spiritual health, career, whatnot). You can do exactly the same things with 3 kids and all of them will almost guaranteed be different when they're adults. Some kids require more freedom while you have to hold harder on other ones. There is SO much that plays into this; genetics, the time in the mothers womb, physical contact with the world around the kids (smells, noises...) and so much more. So I don't believe there is right or wrong in this case, and that's what probably makes it so difficult to raise kids.
IMO FTW.
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Hey you, see me, pictures crazy, all the world I've seen before me passing by
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Antipaladin
Promising
Legendary Hero
of Ooohs and Aaahs
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posted July 23, 2006 12:46 PM |
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Hey what about the responcible kids who smoke and drink(moi).
i smoke for six years and i drink for 3-4years,and well i only got to the point of complete drunkness like once or twice.and it was 2 years ago,i know how to stop myself.besids the fect that u get and ID when ur turn sixteen here,i could buy alchaol and smokes even before it...
also dont forget that some teen's could be responbile,my mother "allows" me to drink,she knows i will drink anyway but she also knows i know when to stop.So my point is some kids could be "BAD" and responcible at the same time.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted July 23, 2006 01:50 PM |
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Perhaps i should really stay in the library and stop posting in "real life" forums, coz it ends always the same. Itīs either my bad english, or specific formulations in german canīt be translated very well in english (by me).
Iīll try again to express what i meant, if u still donīt get my point, i will take some more english lessons and come back later...
I agree completely with Val refering to "shouting and beating". If parents start to beat their children, theyīre out of ideas and show disrespect to their kids as human beings.
And of course kids should make their own experiences so they can learn "good and bad" at first hand.
But here is where i say "to a certain degree". I will exaggerate a bit now, but everybody knows, stabbing a knife in your stomach wonīt do you any good. A 2 year old kid doesnīt know. So u either can TELL your kid about it (rule!), or u can give it (do u say "it"?) a knife and after a deep cut anywhere on her body, you can be sure it has learned its lesson and wonīt do it again. An extreme example, i know. But it gives a picture of what i mean. Let them kids make their own experience, but not to any costs.
Dragonslayer also made a good example. I donīt know how i would feel as a dad if i knew my 15 year old daughter lurches around drunken at midnight on a public place. I know my daughter dislikes alcohol completely, so i guess this wonīt happen. But what we (parents) all underestimate is the so called group pressure. This is the reason why most of the kids start smoking. Not because they like it, but because some of their group do it. I guess this "phenomenon" will stay for every generation.
And from my experience, the feeling a "big" brother has for his sister is similar to the father-daughter relationship. Especially in so called "southern" countries.
What would you (DS) do, if u walk around there and all of a sudden see your 12 year old (gave her 2 more years, coz 12 is a special age for girls) sister in a group of 10 boys and girls (not known by you), all about 16-20 years old, smoking and drinking alcohol. You would do nothing? Say nothing? Just walk away without thinking anything?
I would let my daughter (or son) make her own decisions in most of all things. I donīt think parents should say: "You have to have that hobby, you have to learn this, you have to make this career" and so on. Itīs her life and her future. As long as her plans are legal, i would encourage and support her to my very best. No question about it.
But no father in the whole world (i guess) wants to see his daughter getting hurt. This is where i said: "Wait till you are a father yourself", then u know what i mean.
@ Russ
Donīt feel offended. I respect your opinion and your point of views. You think they differ that much from my own when i was about 20 and had no kids? No...they were pretty much the same.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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2XtremeToTake
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted July 23, 2006 07:23 PM |
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On the subject of using physical violence on children as a form of discipline.
I do think it is acceptable in moderation. I read somewhere before that its alright to do it as long as you don't show any anger while your doing it.
Like...if your child does something that makes you upset and is wrong, then wait until you calm down, and then administer a spanking, preferably with a belt, or if you wish your hand...Also, be careful in your selection of belts. Don't use the really thin ones as they tend to leave bruises..the thicker ones are alright. After the spanking, explain to your child WHY you did that and WHAT they did wrong.
Now I'm not saying this is the approach I would take to my child, because it might and it might not be. I know people who say they will do stuff with their children when they have them usually end up not doing it. So I'm not going to say what and how I will discipline them...But this the approach that my father took with me, and it worked fine.
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I almost had a psychic girlfriend but she left me before we met.
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