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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted February 11, 2019 02:15 PM |
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Edited by blob2 at 14:33, 11 Feb 2019.
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I always wondered why "unproductive" (as in taxpayers) immigrants aren't sent back to their home country. "We will let you into our country, but on one condition: you need to find a job in 6 months". Controls would need to be assigned to see if they are really working, papers can be fabricated.
Isn't it a good idea to control how well they are integrating/keeping their word on this condition? Welfare is one thing, people need to have some support in order to have a good start, but isn't it obvious that if you want something from a country you need to ultimately give something in return? And if there's not enough people for the control job, maybe make social officer jobs more attractive financially? You know, as an investment for the future perhaps? Plus maybe that would attract all those people who are standing behind immigration to work in welfare? Aside from the fact that it's economically justified (less births in Western countries, but need workers)?
I know, I'm being naive...
PS: Yes, this should apply to the local populace also. But I think at least immigrants are theoretically easier to control, because they are checked when crossing a border.
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AlHazin
Promising
Supreme Hero
النور
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posted February 11, 2019 02:27 PM |
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Galaad said:
immigration is nowhere mentioned.
Of course, this is why when I type "gilets jaune immigration" I get dozens of results. What you say makes a lot of sense.
And just who told you that most of the French thought like Salamandre does? I said the peasants revolting did, and they are not the majority. Rest assured that these people vote for Le Pen, they are against globalisation, Europe, and immigration. This is how she is making to the second round in presidential elections. You're yourself an example of this social divide, you live in an urban area, and thus you're not wearing a yellow vest. People coming from immigration and living in the suburbs do not wear them as well. Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't see many Blacks, Arabs or Métisses protesting. The movement is vastly white.
I will though not fight with you in this one. I prefer withdrawing from the topics "discussed" altogether.
@Norway: I like when everyone has learnt to try to decredibilise the people in front of them by using the word "feelings".
You also totally implied in your first post that people coming from Africa or Middle East were predispositionned to raping women, you just moved the cause from their genetics to their cultures, which doesn't change anything since all Africans living in Africa happen to be of an African culture, the genetics and the cultures match. I still wonder how many of you in the West still think like anthropologists of the late 1800s.
Now let's do the same.
So whe have this map:
It comes from here.
You will know that they don't include countries about which they don't have enough data. We can fairly consider this as a basis, as being relatively true and objective.
By looking at the map, indeed, Sweden seems to be a terrible country to live in for women. You can put the blame on Africans or Muslims if you want, but as you see all of Scandinavia is concerned by the phenomenon. And you can see the numbers for yourself, I don't think, like really I genuinely don't think there is a significant African community in Iceland, yet the rate is high there as well, same for Finland, it's a very homogeneous country ethnically speaking.
So two things:
1- Scandinavians countries' are influenced, like any country in the world, by culture. This time you can speak about culture:
Quote:
On the face of it, it would seem Sweden is a much more dangerous place than these other countries. But that is a misconception, according to Klara Selin, a sociologist at the National Council for Crime Prevention in Stockholm. She says you cannot compare countries’ records, because police procedures and legal definitions vary widely. In Sweden there has been this ambition explicitly to record every case of sexual violence separately, to make it visible in the statistics,” she says. “So, for instance, when a woman comes to the police and she says my husband or my fiance raped me almost every day during the last year, the police have to record each of these events, which might be more than 300 events. In many other countries it would just be one record – one victim, one type of crime, one record.”
2- Africans, I repeat it, don't have the monopoly of rape. South Korea is known for men putting cameras in ladies' toilets, Morrocans are known for taking photos of women in hammams. Two different cultures, same practice.
Numbers can be manipulated, if you define putting your tongue into a woman's one without permission that can be counted as a rape in some countries and as a "simple" sexual agression or aggression with sexual implications in other ones. A far right Swedish party has every interest in getting bigger numbers and not making any difference between the different types of sexual aggresion, and this is why Sweden always wins the rape world award. Maps as well, if not critically analysed can lead you to think wrong about all this phenomenon as a whole.
Since there are few Africans in Iceland I decide to believe that Scandinavians are cultural rapists, and I can back it up with a map like this one. You would be offended if I did that, right?
Immigrants are a problem because yes, cultures do somewhat clash with one another but that is not an argument to follow Huntington in his theory that can be proven false by the past, today and probably future "civilisational" relasionships. Putting the blame on the foreigner has always proven to be a bad strategy. It has led to things like the Holocaust not so long ago.
Farewell.
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Nothing of value disappears from this world, it will reappear in some shape or form ^^ - Elvin
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 11, 2019 02:36 PM |
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Immigrants are something else than refugees (or people requesting asylum).
Plus, there are/have been certain special rules for inhabitants of colonies and ex-colonies of the colonial powers (basically Britain, France, Spain, Portugal, the Netherlands, and Belgium.
You shouldn't overlook the friction within the EC either. Brexit is a consequence of a sizable part of Britains being fed up with having to accept the regular influx from EASTERN EUROPEANS, mainly Poles, but the others as well, who don't gave a good reputation there. Remember, inhabitants of EC countries can freely move between countries.
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted February 11, 2019 02:39 PM |
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AlHazin said:
I don’t watch the news, I drew my own conclusions.
Wow, that's a great summary of the entire thread.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted February 11, 2019 02:42 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
So that CANNOT be the reason in the US, because in that case it would have to look the same in vast parts of Europe, which isn't the case, though.
Cultures and their history are not identical, they are unique and created by diverse factors. You cannot compare afro-americans with let's say algerians, morrocans in France then say because welfare hasn't the same effect on each of them (in this example it has, btw), let's drop that argument.
Also if you are on the side which finds a good idea of giving a basic revenue to everyone, just for breathing and popping, I am far away from that, exactly at the opposite corner so there is not much to discuss or argue, there can't be any compromise. Dependency to the state is the first step of degrading individual potential.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted February 11, 2019 02:50 PM |
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AlHazin said:
[ Rest assured that these people vote for Le Pen, they are against globalisation, Europe, and immigration.
yeah, from 2 thousand miles, teach us what is going under my window. oh boy, what snow of papers you read there.
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Blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted February 11, 2019 02:58 PM |
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@AlHazin:
That data is heavily reliant on how consistently and effectively rape is reported and/or prosecuted. Northern Europe isn't necessarily a great place for women because the party culture / "northern drinking" style is strong there, and party culture often isn't good for women. That being said, there is more stigma for women in machismo countries to report rape.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 11, 2019 03:12 PM |
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Salamandre said:
JollyJoker said:
So that CANNOT be the reason in the US, because in that case it would have to look the same in vast parts of Europe, which isn't the case, though.
Cultures and their history are not identical, they are unique and created by diverse factors. You cannot compare afro-americans with let's say algerians, morrocans in France then say because welfare hasn't the same effect on each of them (in this example it has, btw), let's drop that argument.
Also if you are on the side which finds a good idea of giving a basic revenue to everyone, just for breathing and popping, I am far away from that, exactly at the opposite corner so there is not much to discuss or argue, there can't be any compromise. Dependency to the state is the first step of degrading individual potential.
Do you really want to claim that welfare is making afro-american people to criminals, but others not? Even in the face of the fact that the US are way behind many European countries as a "welfare state"? That would be strong contender for the most idiotic thing I've ever heard.
As if there were serious data about "the effect that welfare has", and especially as opposed to the other factors relevant in people's life.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 11, 2019 03:13 PM |
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Blizzardboy said:
@AlHazin:
That data is heavily reliant on how consistently and effectively rape is reported and/or prosecuted. Northern Europe isn't necessarily a great place for women because the party culture / "northern drinking" style is strong there, and party culture often isn't good for women. That being said, there is more stigma for women in machismo countries to report rape.
There are also differences in what constituates rape as such in the laws of each country.
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted February 11, 2019 03:20 PM |
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Edited by blob2 at 15:31, 11 Feb 2019.
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JollyJoker said:
You shouldn't overlook the friction within the EC either. Brexit is a consequence of a sizable part of Britains being fed up with having to accept the regular influx from EASTERN EUROPEANS, mainly Poles, but the others as well, who don't gave a good reputation there. Remember, inhabitants of EC countries can freely move between countries.
Britain's got an even longer history of accepting immigrants from their past colonies, yet I don't see any signs of wanting to "close the borders" for them. I wonder why is that... It's easier to regulate immigration policies with European countries, from a formal (European treaties) and ethical point of view (Poles are not war refugees for example). British people (at least those who say f* Poles) know they can press their government on the matter. Good luck with doing the same for "less fortunate" countries.
True, I will agree that a part of my countrymen do not give a good example, but for the most part they've filled many manpower gaps in Britain. Poles are generally praised for their part in construction and healthcare segments. If British society overlooks this fact, it's their choice to make.
Well assuming that Britain will "close the borders" for us, we are still in the process of Brexit negotiations afterall.
That said it's actually pretty good for us on a high-end level. Believe it or not we are also facing a workforce crisis, and there are big gaps in employment in eastern parts of my country for instance. We could use some of the Poles going back to their home country. Job-migration is why we are also having an influx of Ukrainian populace. Unfortunately for us, Germany opened their borders for UA and the same people are moving on (statistics show this) cus Germans, well, pay more...
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted February 11, 2019 03:27 PM |
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Al said:
Of course, this is why when I type "gilets jaune immigration" I get dozens of results. What you say makes a lot of sense.
Yeah, if you cut my sentence in two. I was saying :
Galaad said:
I was not being condescending, if you indeed bother to inform yourself by checking the actual news, you will find out that within the main revendications of the yellow vests, immigration is nowhere mentioned.
Which was addressing
Al said:
You should highlight that to tthe peasants who are revolting over there, convinced that immigration is the source of their misery.
The #1 revendication from yellow vest is RIC (Référendum d'Initiative Citoyenne), not immigration, and you can find that easily. Besides, 10 secs google search for your reply?
Al said:
the peasants
You're so, so off the mark. It's the full middle class which is in revolt, going up to CSP+.
Sal said:
yeah, from 2 thousand miles, teach us what is going under my window
Yeah, exactly. 
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted February 11, 2019 03:29 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
Do you really want to claim that welfare is making afro-american people to criminals, but others not?
No, I didn't say that. I said that welfare may lead to a specific mentality and a delay into development. From Thomas Sowell "Discrimination and Disparities":
"Children of parents with professional occupations were found to hear about 2,100 words per hour at home. Children in Working Class houses heard 1,200 words per hour where children from homes which are on welfare were found to hear 600 words per hour. What about the advantages of being the first born in a family? Or are they really disadvantages? Hard work and perseverance are so important to really achieving success. But so is the personal desire to succeed."
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 11, 2019 03:43 PM |
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@ Sal
You (and the author) are mistaking cause and effect. "Getting welfare" is on a different level than "professional occupation" and "working class" - it's apples and oranges. People are not getting welfare and are therefore unemployed. People are unemployed and THEREFORE get welfare (or not).
People are unemployed MAINLY, because they have low qualifications, (are illegal immigrants in the US), have no proper education or even schooling, cannot read or write and so on, and obviously children of these people, who generally live in some kind of slum, have a lot more difficulties to get out of that environment.
It is NOT the other way round.
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted February 11, 2019 03:59 PM |
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Edited by blob2 at 16:10, 11 Feb 2019.
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JollyJoker said:
You (and the author) are mistaking cause and effect. "Getting welfare" is on a different level than "professional occupation" and "working class" - it's apples and oranges. People are not getting welfare and are therefore unemployed. People are unemployed and THEREFORE get welfare (or not).
Well it might not be always the case. I think Sal and the author meant people who purposely choose to not work and thus are getting welfare instead because the social system enables it. It's a matter of attitude and the values these kind of people give their children later on.
To show you that (again) some of my countryman are not crystal clear, we have this social program that gives a sum of money per child born in a family. It is obvious to everyone here that this was a political play on our now ruling parties behalf. They literally "bought" a number of voters. The program has it's merits ofc, but it's generally viewed as giving taxpayers money to the lazy. You see if you earn a certain income per month, you're less inclined to get this bonus. So if you don't have income you're a lot more qualified for the program. To further support this claim there were reported cases of people dropping out of work cus it's more profitable to go "welfare" then actually work. There was this saying in my country: "before I had more money and a mechanic in my neighborhood. Now I have less money (taxes) and no mechanic in my neighborhood". But in a country were the minimal wage is really low, people are more prone to any "freebies" from the government. So going "welfare" is about values and as it stands, economy.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted February 11, 2019 04:08 PM |
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I know that theory. For me is the opposite, more dependent you are, less chances you gotta go on your feet you have. Welfare as concept - which is temporary and insufficient support - is not the problem, the combined applications through abuses are. If you combine food stamps, welfare for unemployment, welfare as house rent aid and the parental welfare, all possible in the actual system, your revenues will pinpoint slightly below the minimum wage, or even more. So why work, just sit home and make kids.
Which is case of immigrants, leads to less opportunities to learn language, meet people of different backgrounds, learn the customs required for applying to a job and so on. You try to link ONE effect for ONE cause, I think many social factors are interlinked.
Take for example the surname. Many people in France are annoyed north africans never take a french surname, but from generation to generation they pas to their kids the same islamic surnames, again and again. When I came in France, I was confronted through my job to other people, from other culture. My surname was difficult to remember, pronounce and write (Valeriy) so I took the french variant as soon as it became legally possible. Some say this is stripping someone of his identity. It is bollocks, it is called adaptive intelligence. If I didn't have a job, I would probably ignore that step and keep my old clothes as well. And my shoes.
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Era II mods and utilities
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 11, 2019 06:50 PM |
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Look, that is complete hogwash, because it's not the first generation that matters, it's the children (who are not to blame).
Children grow up in the environment they are born into. They haven't got a choice. If they are born into a slum - what options do they have? Schools in that areas are abysmal in the US - however, career opportunities are right in front of them, working with and for the local gangs in the illegal business the US laws were so kind to provide; making a lot of interesting things illegal, excluding weapons as a means to help with the business.
That's the situation, and welfare is utterly meaningless, because it's not enough to lead a decent life in a decent neighborhood, while once you are part of a crime enterprise, welfare isn't needed anymore anyway (can't hurt either, though, if you have afamily member to cash it it).
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 11, 2019 06:58 PM |
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verriker said:
lol sorry to burn you but the point is not a mere insult, the fact is if you love prolonging identity politics and kick and scream a lot to completely deny a concept like white fragility, it can be valuable to examine what your own identity is and see if you fit a certain profile lol
kicking and screaming? you mean, attempting to reach you with honesty and logic?
my own identity is just fine, thanks. i don't feel threatened by anyone. what i see that is threatened, is common sense in the world, which seems to be near-nonexistent more and more everyday; because people are listening to the kind of tripe you and your ilk spew, and taking it for reality; instead of completely self-absorbed ego-driven bullsnow. if you're talking about white fragility, you should know you're talking about you and your kind who think they can correct a history no one worth a snow today even had a part in. us, the guys you THINK are the fragile white? we're just fine.
verriker said:
I don't know what hardship you did or did not face in 40 years but in the USA there are huge college fees, so even if you go through a good college for gaming graphics and find a job, it is such a low-paying, low-priority sector that it could take many years working your nuts off to pay your debt, this may exacerbate your state of denial down the line lol
my time in the military's going to pay for my college, so debt's not going to be an issue. you must take me for the common men who plan to even BE in debt in the first place. again, what do you think i even went into the military FOR?
verriker said:
I can post the exact same sentence so basically it is *shrug*, I have left your HCM unopened and have no intention to waste the energy as stated, as long as you do not insist with more passive-aggressive irony callouts that will be the case lol
can i ask you something, hypothetically? if you were to start a conversation with a complete stranger somewhere offline, would you follow him around, insisting that he reply to you by addressing him after the fact he told you to buzz off more than once?
you can't seem to get it through your head that i don't want you bothering me incessantly with a topic you don't understand.
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted February 11, 2019 07:23 PM |
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Edited by blob2 at 19:35, 11 Feb 2019.
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fred79 said:
common sense in the world, which seems to be near-nonexistent more and more everyday; because people are listening to the kind of tripe you and your ilk spew, and taking it for reality; instead of completely self-absorbed ego-driven bullsnow. if you're talking about white fragility, you should know you're talking about you and your kind who think they can correct a history no one worth a snow today even had a part in. us, the guys you THINK are the fragile white? we're just fine.
Reffering to freds post, one of the things I can't understand is why are so many whites bent on correcting their ancestors/fellow man wrongdoings. Some moral crisis of conciousness? Beliving that it's their obligation? Thoughts that this is the right thing to do?
A word of advise, not that you might want any rewards for your decency in standing for others, but most of the people whose rights your protecting don't give a snow for you... and those few who will pat your back for this are decent people either way (mostly).
verriker said:
so even if you go through a good college for gaming graphics and find a job, it is such a low-paying, low-priority sector that it could take many years working your nuts off to pay your debt, this may exacerbate your state of denial down the line lol
As a freelancer he might get a good contract (companies that are looking for graphic designers on short notice), or he can start a Kickstarer project with a bunch of guys (maybe some Heroes fans who want to ressurect the franchise?). Opportunities are many. If it doesn't work out he can always be an SJW blogger and ask people for donations...
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 11, 2019 07:29 PM |
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blob2 said:
If it doesn't work out he can always be an SJW blogger and ask people for donations...
LOL.
but honestly, i wouldn't do that. because i won't sell out, no matter what.
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evildustructor
Known Hero
Pizza Man dominos pizza yummy
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posted February 11, 2019 10:31 PM |
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havent read it all since last i was here, but tried to recap it and had to reply so sorry if it alreadyt was replied to!
blob2 said:
I belive that most of us here in these forums, even if our views are extreme, wouldn't actully hurt a man or even call him names in public just because of color. Well we "might" feel uncomfortable in their presence, like when you see an Arab in an airport (that is just random example don't dwell on it), but we probably keep it to ourselves..
hurt someone or call them names no, but something else? How is feeling uncomfortable different, it would certainly affect your behaviour????????? Racism doesn't solely exist as extreme prosecution based on someones ethnicity you know. Your example would still be considered racism (and is lol) so i really don't get your point at all here tbh, that you're a nice guy but you think feeling uncomfortable around non white people is justified as long as you keep it to yourself? maybe not you in particular but the person with the behaviour you tried to justify
Quote:
"educating" with their one true morality.
i don't like to do this either but i really try to understand your point of view, i'm curious on how you and the others in the thread really reason. feels like people just write "hahahahaha insert edgy stuff here" and then someonme says "hey wtf lol stop doing that" and you guys are all like "haha triggered sjw dont tell me what to do you cant educate me wtf censorship i cant do what i want" so feels like a rly toxic childish environment as of now, was really curious on how you guys think
Quote:
I wouldn't have even bothered with this, as a person not associated with any political views nor groups (at least not in actions) I don't need to even find a reason to identify my "enemies" and would stay quiet.
discussions isnt really about enemies or certain political views imo, still expressing opinions/statements with political meaning behind them still exhibits a political view right? 
Quote:
But for instance I'm a gamer, and what I find when reading popular gaming portals? Articles about games nowadays are sprinkeled all over with articles "apologizing for misconduct", "toxic/entitled gamers critique" or how "woman gamers are mistreated".
but really though is this a problem? have you not noticed in all online games when 90% of "gamers" behave completely different when they play with a woman, or how stuff like 4chan twitch chat etc produce edgy snow that really snows snow up? This thread is 50% toxic gamers lol sorry but it's true, the journalism maybe is needed after all even if it might be on a high level would probably be possible to create an interesting article just by reading this single thread really.
Why do you think the articles are created to begin with? How do you think it is playing multiplayer games when people e.g. are being complete idiots like flirting or harassing you just because you sound like a woman? or is it really a bigger problem that some websites tend to put a spotlight on the problems women face online? hint: it isn't 
Quote:
Games are changing their character line-ups to express every ethnic/orientation group while keeping the "white straight males" number to a bare minimum (Apex Legends), so that mainstream companies can butkiss various social justice organisations etc. I wouldn't even notice this fact because I don't care with what character I'm playing, but people seem to be overzealous that finally their morality can be expressed, while spoiling the fun for others in the process.
Isn't it basically racism that people get upset by including non-white people representated in games, though? It's not as there's not enough representation of white male heroes, right? can you name 10 good black fantasy heroes? how does it hurt the gaming community to make more people feel included, do you feel excluded when all protagonists aren't duke ivan the knight, kilgor the barbarian or whatever? by including a woman protagonist or something for a change, is that really keeping the "white straight males" to a "minimum" or is it just adding diversity?
How is it less "fun" to play a game with a protagonist that you can't relate to physically, aren't you basically arguing against yourself here then? If you think it is less fun to play characters that aren't "white straight males", then how would you think a person coming from a minority group feels when looking at all 10000000 generic fantasy heroes?  it might not just be to buttkiss "social justice organisations" (in some cases it totally is tho, you might be right there as their main reasoning behind would probably like to increase their sales) but still i find it positive that people actually organize and make the companies c´hange up some stuff by slightly pressurizing them to make people in general feel more included
Quote:
ormal people don't do racism (plus I like to remind that racism works in both ways) and don't need "guidiance", and if someone does racism, it's something wrong with them in the first place and they can very well hurt people on any other possible basis, not even related to color or orientation.
this mentality is dangerous imo, sorry but normal people do racism that's something that creates racism to begin with, to justify it as basically non-existent or that solely crazy people are racist. racism exists, is real and thats why people talk about it heres an extreme example, how was hitler elected to begin with? was all of 1930s germany completely insane, or was there other contributing factors behind it?
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This thread is pages long: 
