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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted February 14, 2019 10:54 AM |
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artu said:
just because you adore someone, doesnt necessarily mean you evaluate them as your peer.
You can't be more right on this. When you adore someone to the point of dedicating hundreds of hours to create a worshiping artwork to their beauty or glory, you don't consider such person as your peer. You consider it as superior, a better being, worth to carry it in the marble as a testimony for future generations. This is what art is for.
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Era II mods and utilities
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 14, 2019 11:08 AM |
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You can adore something until you burn yourself to death - that doesn't give you any rights over and above the adored, claims on anything concerning the adored, nor does it create a two-sided relationship, nor does the adored owe the adorer something. Nor are WORDS in any way relevant. Talk is cheap, as they say, and it's the deeds that count.
Too much adoration may lead to "stalking", by the way
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 14, 2019 11:09 AM |
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Edited by artu at 11:17, 14 Feb 2019.
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Sal, are you being deliberately naive? Suleyman the Magnificent was in love with Hurrem Sultan, he wrote her countless poems, he went on and on about how she was the meaning of his life, how he got lost in her eyes, how he would present the world for her etc.. Does this change the fact that Hurrem was kidnapped from her hometown, sold in slave trade, never saw her family again, shipped to Istanbul, bought as a gift to Süleyman and he had the authority to decide anything regarding her life, including taking that life if he pleased.
Here, I found one of his poems’ translation, it really loses a lot in English though:
"Throne of my lonely niche, my wealth, my love, my moonlight.
My most sincere friend, my confidant, my very existence, my Sultan, my one and only love.
The most beautiful among the beautiful...
My springtime, my merry faced love, my daytime, my sweetheart, laughing leaf...
My plants, my sweet, my rose, the one only who does not distress me in this world...
My Istanbul, my Caraman, the earth of my Anatolia
My Badakhshan, my Baghdad and Khorasan
My woman of the beautiful hair, my love of the slanted brow, my love of eyes full of mischief...
I'll sing your praises always
I, lover of the tormented heart, Muhibbi of the eyes full of tears, I am happy
I guess, according to your approach, we shoud now scratch over “the women issue” in the muslim world, too.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted February 14, 2019 11:28 AM |
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Edited by blob2 at 11:31, 14 Feb 2019.
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It's really a shame we don't have any women in this discussion  (at least to my knowledge).
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted February 14, 2019 11:32 AM |
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fred scared all of them away, that naughty boy!
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted February 14, 2019 12:48 PM |
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blob2 said:
It's really a shame we don't have any women in this discussion (at least to my knowledge).
nah, I won't risk having a radical feminist beating the crap out of us. Beside, I linked to Camille Paglia, she is a woman moreover an exceptional one. Strange that some listen only what they want to hear (well ok we are all that way but leftists at 100% ).
@artu/JJ
Again, what you consider having rights above, many consider as adapting to a very different world than today, where strength and resistance over-hanged at the top of survival hierarchy.
Guys, is simple: show me one society which organized differently, in your sense: gender equality, sharing same tasks, goals and ambitions then I consider (until now, none of you gave me any articulate answer to this but conveniently skipped). Until then, for me the case is closed, your arguments make sense only if we consider the present. Where men and women live in (almost) perfect harmony, I remind you. Except in some places, but strangely that is never finger pointed, no white kangaroos to bash.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 14, 2019 12:57 PM |
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artu said:
fred scared all of them away, that naughty boy!
Uh-uh, mister. It's not MY fault you guys argue like cretins. If we all got along swimmingly, we might actually HAVE an environment safe enough for females to hunker down and show us boobies and booties. That's on YA'LL. Ya dummies. 
...
...I've... I've been wanting to show my butt. 
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 14, 2019 01:04 PM |
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Salamandre said:
blob2 said:
I linked to Camille Paglia, she is a woman moreover an exceptional one.
Well, actually she isn't. Not in her own view. There she is a transgender man, is what she says about herself.
Quote:
@artu/JJ
Again, what you consider having rights above, many consider as adapting to a very different world than today, where strength and resistance over-hanged at the top of survival hierarchy.
And they would be wrong, because, if you think of it, strength and resistance is a necessary prerequisite for women, to bear children and give birth to them. Actually, they even need the strength to do it again and again, so obviously they can't be squeamish and obviously they must have the highest durability in terms of pain and suffering, which she have proved over the millennia - a lot more so than men, who end up with PTSD, even SEEING a woman giving birth.
Quote:
Guys, is simple: show me one society which organized differently, in your sense: gender equality, sharing same tasks, goals and ambitions then I consider. Until then, for me the case is closed, your arguments make sense only if we consider the present. Where men and women live in (almost) perfect harmony, I remind you. Except in some places, but strangely that is never finger pointed, no white men to bash.
Well, what is that supposed to be show? Show me any society that hasn't been warring - so is that the natural, necessary state of things? A society that didn't feature poor people suffering? Is that the natural, necessary state of things?
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted February 14, 2019 01:22 PM |
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Yes. If no society is able of totally removing poverty and sufferance, that means that they are a natural state and our only solution is to keep them at lowest realistically possible.
It's the same angle I look at the so called "patriarchal" system. If no society, despite the fact they weren't able to communicate each other and share such beliefs, was capable of proposing and succeeding into a more egalitarian system, that means they faced specific struggles which made that structure necessary for survival, thus it should not be viewed as male dominance for the sake of.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 14, 2019 01:49 PM |
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Salamandre said:
Yes. If no society is able of totally removing poverty and sufferance, that means that they are a natural state and our only solution is to keep them at lowest realistically possible.
It's the same angle I look at the so called "patriarchal" system. If no society, despite the fact they weren't able to communicate each other and share such beliefs, was capable of proposing and succeeding into a more egalitarian system, that means they faced specific struggles which made that structure necessary for survival, thus it should not be viewed as male dominance for the sake of.
It's not a question of ABILITY. Of course we could totally remove poverty. And it WAS male dominance for the sake of it.
In fact, most things people know about history could be summed up as "power struggle". History of humankind is the history of men fighting for power; against each other (we know that behavior from animals, terrotorial fights and so on) and for power over the other sex. There was no struggle other than to survive and survival doesn't need one sex to dominate another, survival needs equitable teamwork of all the members of a team. Things have been so abysmal BECAUSE of men's power struggles, and men's megalomania, and we've just scraped by, escaping a couple of disasters quite narrowly and firmly on course for the next.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted February 14, 2019 02:01 PM |
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The gray area is much larger than you might believe. Well, good luck with that.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 14, 2019 02:18 PM |
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With poverty and sufferance being the natural state of things for you, it's you who needs luck more than me, that much is clear.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted February 14, 2019 02:26 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
Of course we could totally remove poverty.
Fantasy land.
Salamandre said:
our only solution is to keep them at lowest realistically possible.
Reality.
See the difference? You need luck because the landing will be brutal.
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted February 14, 2019 02:39 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
What are you thinking - that in hard times men were living under incredibly harsh circumstances, but women didn't?
Exactly. It's the mot behind phrases like: women and children first. Men were expendable, women weren't. Men would go to war and do all the high risk jobs, women would bare children and raise them.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 14, 2019 04:27 PM |
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And people are wondering why there is such a thing as feminism, lol.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 14, 2019 07:20 PM |
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Edited by fred79 at 19:27, 14 Feb 2019.
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what a superfantastic comeback, jj! you should write for sjw magazine! 
your article could be titled, "why and how to ignore reality, based on our feelings of inadequacy towards the opposite sex(and black men)!"
edited for a miswording.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 14, 2019 07:29 PM |
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fred79 said:
what a superfantastic comeback, jj! you should rightfor sjw magazine!
your article could be titled, "why and how to ignore reality, based on our feelings of inadequacy towards the opposite sex(and black men)!"
You know, a pun is so much better when delivered flawlessly. Talking about inadequacy...
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 14, 2019 07:35 PM |
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lol, yeah, my problem is, i snowed up a single word because i need sleep. you snowed up a whole way of thinking, because of what i pinpointed so beautifully in the rest of what you quoted me posting, there. puddin. 
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 14, 2019 08:27 PM |
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Well, fred, I think, you and a couple of other guys here in the thread are doing a lot to really demonstrate why the hell societies did so royally screw up under male dominance.
And just between you and me, isn't that the history of men's world? "I screwed up just a single thing, because...?"
Excuses for failures here and for inadequacies there. Always the same story: Need sleep, too much to drink, too much stress, life's too hard, things were not right, unlucky - not my fault.
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted February 14, 2019 08:38 PM |
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Edited by blob2 at 20:38, 14 Feb 2019.
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JollyJoker said:
Well, fred, I think, you and a couple of other guys here in the thread are doing a lot to really demonstrate why the hell societies did so royally screw up under male dominance.
Lol this is actually the funniest thing I've heard in a while.
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This thread is pages long: 
