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| Thread: Is fortresss overpowered |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted December 19, 2007 09:30 PM |
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Quote:
Wait a sec... aren't Shieldguards 'armored'? (immune to spells like Vulnerability which decrease defence)
That's why I say Shieldguards are overpowered cuz there's now way you can stop them.
1. Charge with all your troops -> Shield Wall (every tile enemy walked to hit = -10% dam.)
2. Pick them off with ranged -> 50% off all ranged attacks
3. Decrease their defence -> IMPOSSIBLE, armored
Spells are the only way to kill 'em. But... first cast Magical Immunity, then cast Divine Strength, then finally Teleport. And voila! You've got a mega monster with high speed, high power, high defence, high quantity, high HP... scary huh?
Relax man, unless they are commanded by Ingvar they are manageable. Powerful tier 1 yes but still tier 1. I have used them and have them used against me and they never were THAT unstoppable. Only the ones that appeared to guard the town but the numbers were outrageous in HoF and are now balanced.
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mlai
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 19, 2007 09:42 PM |
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Here's how Storm Strike works:
1. Thane hits 1st stack -> full melee damage.
2. Then, the 1st stack gets hit again by the full damage value, in the form of shock.
3. Then, full damage value jumps indefinitely to each adjacent enemy stack, in the form of shock.
Now look at Thane's min-max damage. It's half that of its alternate, because it takes into account the shock the 1st stack will eat. This means that the shock to the adjacent stacks is only half damage value in truth, not full.
And unlike Chain Sot, it's not guaranteed to jump every time. You need touching stacks.
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Lepastur
Known Hero
The Red Taskmaster
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posted December 20, 2007 07:24 PM |
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Quote:
Here's how Storm Strike works:
1. Thane hits 1st stack -> full melee damage.
2. Then, the 1st stack gets hit again by the full damage value, in the form of shock.
3. Then, full damage value jumps indefinitely to each adjacent enemy stack, in the form of shock.
Now look at Thane's min-max damage. It's half that of its alternate, because it takes into account the shock the 1st stack will eat. This means that the shock to the adjacent stacks is only half damage value in truth, not full.
So illustrative, thanks for the info. Ok, only half value in truth, so they destroy a half army instead full by ONE strike, do you think that's balance?
Quote:
And unlike Chain Sot, it's not guaranteed to jump every time. You need touching stacks.
Yep, but it forces you to move up and turn yourself more vulnerable to the enemy.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted December 20, 2007 08:22 PM |
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Ok, only half value in truth, so they destroy a half army instead full by ONE strike, do you think that's balance?
Yes because they would suck otherwise and let me remind you that you cannot get them week 2 like most other tier 6 units.
Quote:
Yep, but it forces you to move up and turn yourself more vulnerable to the enemy.
Huh? You stay rooted in fights? Besides against fortress there are so many reasons NOT to keep units adjacent, it's not the thanes alone.
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mlai
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 21, 2007 01:18 AM |
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Yup, the dwarven art of war is to force you to break up your neat formations.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted December 21, 2007 01:23 AM |
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Riight. Apart from necro and academy all others have to cross the battlefield and have nothing to gain from cluttering. Only thing can be the first turn and the thunder thanes have average initiative. What is your point?
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Lepastur
Known Hero
The Red Taskmaster
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posted December 21, 2007 02:48 AM |
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Yes because they would suck otherwise
Really? I don't think so, I guess normal STATs with some normal ability would be better for the basic unit.
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and let me remind you that you cannot get them week 2 like most other tier 6 units.
True, but it depends on the map.
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Apart from necro and academy all others have to cross the battlefield and have nothing to gain from cluttering.[...]Only thing can be the first turn and the thunder thanes have average initiative. What is your point?
Average initiave isn't bad, it normally allows them to strike before the enemy could spread all troops. All other creatures with such devastating abilities usually have no more than 9 (Thanes have 11).
Quote:
Huh? You stay rooted in fights? Besides against fortress there are so many reasons NOT to keep units adjacent, it's not the thanes alone.
Nop, but I usually cover my shooters. If I'm forced to leave flaws due to Thanes on the second turn I'll have some stack blocking them, what do you prefer? Half army destroyed by one blow or playing with no shooters? 
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hispana más completa sobre la saga Might&Magic.
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vicheron
Known Hero
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posted December 21, 2007 06:29 AM |
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Thunder Thanes only have 16 attack, that's quite a bit less than the average 6th level creature. 9 - 13 damage isn't that impressive either.
Rakshasa Kshatra are way better damage dealers. 25 - 35 damage, 27 attack, full damage to all creatures attacked, dash to double their initiative, and mini-artifacts for other bonuses.
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The_Gootch
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Kneel Before Me Sons of HC!!
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posted December 21, 2007 08:02 AM |
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Uh...no. That 9-13 is deceiving because the physical damage is matched by the lightning damage that chains. So you're actually looking at 18-26 for the primary target. Of course that doesn't include all the awesome stupendous runes the Thane can activate before coming on over.
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ElectricBunny
Known Hero
Pimp My Box
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posted December 21, 2007 09:08 AM |
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Relax man, unless they are commanded by Ingvar they are manageable. Powerful tier 1 yes but still tier 1. I have used them and have them used against me and they never were THAT unstoppable. Only the ones that appeared to guard the town but the numbers were outrageous in HoF and are now balanced.
Yeah well I was overreacting a bit 
Quote:
This means that the shock to the adjacent stacks is only half damage value in truth, not full.
I knew that... and it doesn't hit ALL adjacent stacks either, only 2.
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silpion
Hired Hero
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posted December 21, 2007 10:02 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
This means that the shock to the adjacent stacks is only half damage value in truth, not full.
I knew that... and it doesn't hit ALL adjacent stacks either, only 2.
The amount of creatures hit by a thane depends on the order in which they are hit. Let's assume the thane T and (1x1 sized) enemies 1-5 in the following formation:
TT
TT
12345
If the thane attacks enemy 1 all will be hit by the shock. If he attacks enemy 2 the shock has two valid directions to jump and will hit the enemies 21 or 2345.
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WarLore
Famous Hero
servant of urgash
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posted December 21, 2007 11:00 AM |
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Edited by WarLore at 11:01, 21 Dec 2007.
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this is wrong say that fortress is overpowered,like it said before in this thread,it totally depends player,also to compare fortress to haven destructive dmg and high att and great morale fortress is just normal town,not overpowered.I'm not saying that haven is overpowered,but they have bigger chances to win than other towns.
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A Nightmare from below.A hero from Within
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mlai
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 21, 2007 03:55 PM |
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Quote:
Riight. Apart from necro and academy all others have to cross the battlefield and have nothing to gain from cluttering. Only thing can be the first turn and the thunder thanes have average initiative. What is your point?
I didn't say it helps them win all battles. I just said that's what they like to do, which they do.
There's nothing to be gained inherently by cluttering. But in the course of battle your creatures may end up moving closer to each other. Against Dwarves you'd have to take that into consideration. It's their property of spatial control.
The guard-your-archers is just one example.
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Myrdreon
Tavern Dweller
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posted December 23, 2007 01:39 PM |
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I've been playing fortress for a while, and so far i've found 1 problem.
First the good news. Once you get to know them, it is possible to get the priests rather fast(usually day 1 week 2, since money income is more important on day 7) which highly increases your creeping.
By the end of week 2/beginning of week 3 the thanes are walking arround. So in terms of getting your most important troops it goes very fast (and a lower cost also helps; capitol 8k instead of 10 for instance).
As for the catch... you need a few skills on your hero or you will get slaughtered sooner or no matter how good your creeping goes or your town building progresses.
-You NEED logistics or the opponents main wil outrun you and use throw away heroes with 7 single stacks of tier 1 (so that thane's stormstrike can hit only 1 or 2) to spam a few spells, while his main is stealing your resources/towns faster then you can take them back.
This eventually leeds to you losing valuable money, him recruiting some of your troops to defend your castle (basicly causing double losses). Along with the constant abuse this will eventually get your numbers within ammounts he can beat.
-You NEED war machines. Simply reason is that it is the only faction which tier 7 cannot get over a wall or shoot. As such, your opponent only needs to take down the catapult (hmm.. 1000 health and the tier 7 is gone, or 4000.. tough choice) to instantly remove the tier 7 from the battle, along with the usual foot troops but that part also counts for other factions.
-You NEED destructive magic for cold steel or fiery wrath and;
-You NEED attack.
These attack boosts are mainly needed because of the war machine issue.. without a catapult during a siege you are only capable of using 3 units; tier 2,5 and 6 so their damage has to be high.
With all this it is save to say enlightment is a pre to get the needed level ups.
This means you have to choose the correct hero (with enlightment you cant use Ingvar.. ouch) AND be lucky with level ups.
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ElectricBunny
Known Hero
Pimp My Box
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posted December 30, 2007 03:59 PM |
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The whole point of fortress is to run up to you and beat the crap out of you. The only thing that stops them from doing just that is their low attack. Anyway, I agree, Thanes and Rune Priests are easily achievable, and yes, the defence/moneymaking buildings are cheapened as well (presumably because of cheap, dwarven craftsmanship)
But the shooters just plain suck. I mean Skirmishers only have like 5 shots and not even No Melee Penalty. I mean what's the logic? You can stab someone with a spear as well as you can with a sword can't you?
The Rune Priests... well I havn't played much with them so I can't tell you much...
The best troops are obviously Shielguards, Magma drags, Thanes and Rune priests. Shielguards are indestructable, Magmas are overpowered, thanes kill twice as many units in one blow and rune priests shoot the hell out of you.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted December 30, 2007 05:07 PM |
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@Myrdreon
I definitely disagree. A few questions first:
So once you get to know them you get the priests week 2. Right and then build thanes in the same, or week 3. Are we playing the same game? Or are you playing ultra rich maps?
Need logistics..? Yes important but not crucial, your arguments could extend to every single homm town yet logistics is not essential for all.
Need warmachines? That's just wrong and actually a bad choice. Their ballista sucks and taking a catapult perks is not my idea of optimal build unless I have everything else I need. Anyway someone that will turltle in town will eventually lose because you can flag everything on the map, gain more xp etc.
Destructive with cold steel is a bad idea because the good perks come from fire. I even avoid fiery wrath because there's secrets of destruction and ignite in the line. In any case light is often a better choice.
Attack I take myself but if you need a damage boost you should aim for luck that is one of the best skills for dwarves.
One more thing, don't hope that enlightenment will give you many levelups, that's negligible.
There are more than one 'correct' heroes and luck is not really needed unless for getting a rare skill. If you plan ahead and know what to wait for you'll see that things are not as dependent on luck.
In the whole post I did not even see attack which is a basic dwarven skill. Especially against charging factions because low initiative means you'll be attacked first. Or even light.. That would not work on multiplayer.
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sith_of_ziost
Promising
Supreme Hero
Scouting the Multiverse
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posted December 30, 2007 06:28 PM |
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Lets argue the point, shall we?
Attack may help the dwarven faction, but Absolute Protection is an awesome skill to have by your side. Not to hard to get either. So, that accounts for three skills - Defense & Destruvtive and Summoning Magic. For the other three, I agree attack should come into that, following the Retribution path. Luck for numero dos, taking Dwarven Luck (Resistance) and Soldier's Luck for Mark of Fire and Crippling Wounds. As for the sixth skill, It really depends on the hero and the situation. I usually would take leadership or logistics. War machines maybe, but definitely not either dark or light.
As for the shieldguard invincibility, in it of itself, they are resilient buggers, but not undefeateble. Their greatest bane is magic, and plus they don't have the greatest initiative. I'm not supporting the weak side of them though. Attacking a stack of 500 or so shieldguards under a hero who has preparation is rather suicidal
Miscellaneous points- Skirmishers crippling wound is their greatest asset, Harpooners get enemies closer as to help eliminate long range penalty, and I like flamelords better than Thunder Thanes.
Side Question - Does Soldier's Luck help Rune of Thunderclap?
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silpion
Hired Hero
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posted December 30, 2007 07:28 PM |
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Yes, Soldier's Luck is great for Rune of Thunderclap (manual p.192).
A question that struck me last time while I played a fortress hero using the expert attack + retribution + expert leadership combination:
Is the Thunder Thane's shock damage (not his normal damage) modified by
- his attack / the enemy creature's defense?
- the hero's skills?
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Anakrom
Known Hero
(Scroll) Out of the blue
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posted December 30, 2007 07:40 PM |
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@Elvin
I slightly disagree in that point about Warmachines, but is just my point of view. My favourite hero is Ingvar, because I prefer defensive strategy and build is usually:
Defense - Vitality, Defensive Formation, Preparation
Luck - Soldier´s Luck, Magic Resistance, Dwarven Luck
Warmachines - Ballista, Triple Shot, Runic Machines
Attack - Frenzy, then Tactics+Offensive Formation/Archery+Flaming Arrows
Light Magic
From personal experience, I agree about that Logistics statement, it is not essencial. Luck and Attack are sure thing, they are just needed. But since you have Expert Luck, Runic Ballista (+3 initiative) can do serious damage, even with not-so-perfect dwarven warmachines. As you can see, my strategy is mainly defensive, even in fight, so it´s just point of view.
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ElectricBunny
Known Hero
Pimp My Box
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posted December 30, 2007 08:09 PM |
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Ummm... let's not forget that some people have ToTE and some have HoF (like me)
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