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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted November 28, 2007 08:01 PM |
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I have used the combo I just don't always build the same things and necro is not a faction I use often anyway. I know torpor, it triggers every once in a blue moon and the retaliation can be a killer. No matter how you lower the enemy's morale the wail damage will be pathetic, have tried it.
Now about the dragons I never build them  I think the old one with curse and +10hp is a bit more reliable unless the enemy is good on luck and morale.
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bloucester
Famous Hero
MSN can go to hell
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posted November 28, 2007 08:08 PM |
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Quote:
I have used the combo I just don't always build the same things and necro is not a faction I use often anyway. I know torpor, it triggers every once in a blue moon and the retaliation can be a killer.
Continuing our sleepy discussion, don't you think that if the retaliation could be a killer, the vampire lords' attack will have no effect at all? I prefer to try to put 20 archdevils to sleep for a few rounds than to kill one or two...
Still, it is personal.
And OK, the wraith wins.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted November 28, 2007 08:13 PM |
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It's a matter of survivability. With vampirism and some vampires you can win the fight, with the new ones you'll most probably fail the torpor and lose half in the retaliation. And then it's a slippery slope. Unless you have soldier's luck it's more reliable to attack weaker units where you may benefit from the special.
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emilsn
Legendary Hero
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posted November 29, 2007 07:10 AM |
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If you wanna use Skeleton warriors I would skip the zombies and pick BOTH Ranged and Melee. No zombies.
And Poltergeist CANNOT heal themselfs, when using steal ammo! They suck !!
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Don't walk behind me; I may not
lead. Don't walk in front of me;
I may not follow. Just walk
beside me and be my friend.
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Nirual
Famous Hero
Imbued Ballista
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posted November 29, 2007 08:50 AM |
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Then again, Spectres can't heal a lot with their unique skill either. Most casters will be able to act at least once before the Spectres reach them, and after that, you can at most absorb 15 mana = 15 spectres ressurected.
I'm not a huge fan of either type, but I usually stick with Spectres because I don't like pink ghosts.
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In ur base killing ur doods... and raising them as undeads.
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TemjinGold
Known Hero
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posted November 29, 2007 03:17 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
I have used the combo I just don't always build the same things and necro is not a faction I use often anyway. I know torpor, it triggers every once in a blue moon and the retaliation can be a killer.
Continuing our sleepy discussion, don't you think that if the retaliation could be a killer, the vampire lords' attack will have no effect at all? I prefer to try to put 20 archdevils to sleep for a few rounds than to kill one or two...
Still, it is personal.
And OK, the wraith wins.
I hope you realize that the actual chance for torpor to trigger (like most chance based skills) is based on the HP of your prince stack versus the HP of the enemy stack. In other words, if your stack was much smaller HP-wise compared to the archdevils, torpor will pretty much NEVER trigger. If it was much larger, you were probably better off with vamp lords anyway.
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TemjinGold
Known Hero
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posted November 29, 2007 03:18 PM |
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That is correct. Wonder what happens if you have a 2nd of those rings 
Btw I tried to use the arcane archer but I just was used to the phoenix, it didn't feel right 
2 rings doesn't give you two extra shots. It will only give you one more +1 defense.
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bloucester
Famous Hero
MSN can go to hell
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posted November 30, 2007 06:15 PM |
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Quote:
I hope you realize that the actual chance for torpor to trigger (like most chance based skills) is based on the HP of your prince stack versus the HP of the enemy stack. In other words, if your stack was much smaller HP-wise compared to the archdevils, torpor will pretty much NEVER trigger. If it was much larger, you were probably better off with vamp lords anyway.
Yeah, I do. I have played the game a few times
5 vampires' health = 1 archdevil's health => 20 archdevils = 100 vampires (HEALTH ONLY)
a vampire prince does 5-13 damage. A vampire lord does 7-11 damage. If we take it that the vampire would do normal damage (which is improbable unless the vampire's stats are quite boosted), 100 x 7-11 is 700 to 1100 which is 3 to 5 archdevils (in real life, it would be more like 1-3 imo). I'd rather risk a fierce retaliation than kill one...
But once again, it depends on the personality of the player, I'd say.
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TemjinGold
Known Hero
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posted December 01, 2007 01:15 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
I hope you realize that the actual chance for torpor to trigger (like most chance based skills) is based on the HP of your prince stack versus the HP of the enemy stack. In other words, if your stack was much smaller HP-wise compared to the archdevils, torpor will pretty much NEVER trigger. If it was much larger, you were probably better off with vamp lords anyway.
Yeah, I do. I have played the game a few times
5 vampires' health = 1 archdevil's health => 20 archdevils = 100 vampires (HEALTH ONLY)
a vampire prince does 5-13 damage. A vampire lord does 7-11 damage. If we take it that the vampire would do normal damage (which is improbable unless the vampire's stats are quite boosted), 100 x 7-11 is 700 to 1100 which is 3 to 5 archdevils (in real life, it would be more like 1-3 imo). I'd rather risk a fierce retaliation than kill one...
But once again, it depends on the personality of the player, I'd say.
Do you realize just how fierce that retaliation is? Princes are 9/9 and Archdevils are 32/29. This means (assuming heroes with equal stats) Archdevils take half damage from Princes and deal 215% of normal damage back.
Princes have a base damage of 5-13, so 100 princes would deal anywhere from 250-650 damage to the archdevils. For argument's sake, we'll let the princes go first AND give them the maximum 650 damage. That kills 3 archdevils.
At 215% damage, each archdevil deals 77.4-141.9 damage, so the 17 remaining would deal 1315.8-2412.3 to the prince stack, for an average damage of 1864. In other words, if torpor does NOT go off, you are losing an additional 46.6 princes on average. 100 vamp lords taking that kind of damage once per round has a better chance of coming back as they attack twice for every once the devils attack. Your princes however, will take 2 consecutive hits (once retal, once attack) before they get to go again. If your torpor doesn't go off (which it most likely won't as to really give it a chance, you need to seriously outnumber the opposing stack in HP), you can kiss your stack goodbye after only 1 round. To make things worse, the prince's damage range is wider, meaning there's a greater chance of it doing LESS damage than the vamp lords would.
Think of the vamp lord's no retal as the ability double attack instead. You aren't just doing more damage on average, you're also hitting twice and draining life twice.
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Odish
Hired Hero
No longer a tavern dweller : )
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posted December 01, 2007 07:59 PM |
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My problem with the vamp prince is I'm afraid to lose him. I don't want them to be retaliated against so I must steal the retal first with something else, only then letting them go- this results in them not doing much except sitting tight unlike the vamp lords that are running around all the time hiting and runing away before they can get hurt too hard.
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bloucester
Famous Hero
MSN can go to hell
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posted December 02, 2007 11:38 AM |
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OK, I shared my views on the necro line-up, which stirred some conflict, now I'm gonna tell you what I think about my all time favourite, the haven town...
Generally, I prefer bash to double attack, for it moves the affected creature back in the bar. This fact determines some of my choices:
1. Conscript - bash (see above )
2. Crossbowman - no range penalty - for taking utopias early in the game or defeating powerful high-tier stacks, I'd chain them back to the town and re-upgrade them into marksmen)
3. Squire - the other alternative is too slow to be considered a good offensive unit, plus I go for shield other and bash.
4. Battle griffin - too great a difference in the hp of the two upgrades to be easily ignored. Kill the battle griffins with one blow or don't touch them at all
5. Hm, perhaps both - yet I'd rather have cleansing and purge, combined, with, let's say refines mana, so the zealot returns.
6. Paladin. In the long term, these will generally become your power stack, and it's better when then cannot be frenzied. Also, 4 more defense and lay hands, which can be vital.
7. For single player, I'd pick archangels for their resurrect ability. For multi player, the seraphs - great offensive unit which becomes twice as dangerous with refined mana.
Btw, have you noticed that the fighter-orientated Haven has the most powerful combination of casters - a tier 5 and a tier 7 unit
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pinkspear
Known Hero
Crazy like a fool
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posted December 02, 2007 04:49 PM |
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Quote:
4. Battle griffin - too great a difference in the hp of the two upgrades to be easily ignored. Kill the battle griffins with one blow or don't touch them at all
Yeah, kiling the battle griffins can be harder, but they have only 10 init, while the imperials have an excellent 15, plus battle dive gives them extra damage which is far more efficient imo than the rush dive (only 75% normal damage) and you can attack with imperials more frequently (due to high initiative). Also, when it comes to creeping the battle griffs can't compete with the mighty imperials.
Besides this, I completely agree with you.
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bloucester
Famous Hero
MSN can go to hell
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posted December 02, 2007 05:04 PM |
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Quote:
Yeah, kiling the battle griffins can be harder, but they have only 10 init, while the imperials have an excellent 15, plus battle dive gives them extra damage which is far more efficient imo than the rush dive (only 75% normal damage) and you can attack with imperials more frequently (due to high initiative). Also, when it comes to creeping the battle griffs can't compete with the mighty imperials.
That's right, yet I think the imperials tend to die too quickly. Of course, the imperials initiative is great, but 10 is not that low. And the rush ability has its uses - for example, when enemy units have clustered to protect their shooters.
It's a difficult choice.
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bloucester
Famous Hero
MSN can go to hell
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posted December 02, 2007 09:20 PM |
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Absolutely useless new alternative upgrades (when compared to the old ones):
1. Harpooner
2. Whitebear Rider
3. High Druid
4. Brisk Rider
5. Arch Demon ???
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted December 02, 2007 10:47 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 22:48, 02 Dec 2007.
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Not at all. Harpooners can drag enemies 1 tile closer which can mean
1)bringing shooters to the open(if guarded by a small stack)
2)open a hole in the defenses
3)create a cool rune combo with the thunder thanes that you previously could not.
Plus they have better damage.
Whitebears can scare up to 3 units and gain an hp boost which makes them awesome, just not for creeping. Paw strike helps me more in creeping plus not all units are subject to fear. Alright, lesser chance for it to work but better results when it does.
High druids are also awesome. Try warlock's luck and maybe an imbued ballista with a ranger that has at least 10 knowledge. Great boost to spellpower, especially with enlightenment that also gives you intelligence for the mana
Brisk raiders suck compared to grim ones. Still they can get some nice free hits if you are careful but the problem is that you'll have to boost your melee a lot to see results. Rider charge will always be effective regardless of placement.
Archdemons are there because of teleport assault combo. Try it with swift mind and teleport them near marksmen/hunters etc. They'll be blocked before the opponent even realized what the heck happened.
Or alternatively teleport your pitspawns in the thick of battle when it gets tough, or the opponent's paladins to your side where all can attack/block them.
I prefer archdevils more but they cannot be as tricky
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bloucester
Famous Hero
MSN can go to hell
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posted December 02, 2007 10:57 PM |
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elvin, i always expect your replies with great impatience. you have enumerated the positive sides of those creatures, but the question is would you get them, given the choice of the regular upgrades? would you at least consider getting them?
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted December 02, 2007 11:14 PM |
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Yes with the exception of brisk raider. I'd only use them against necropolis where even if puppeted they cannot kill your army. MAYBE against academy or inferno(many gates around) but I have not used them to tell their effectiveness there. They probably suck against them too. Whitebears and high druids I have used though the archdemon part was theory crafting I rarely play long games to the part where you get to upgrade everything.
Err thanks 
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pinkspear
Known Hero
Crazy like a fool
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posted December 02, 2007 11:33 PM |
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Quote:
though the archdemon part was theory crafting
Yes it remains only theory, since inferno got 4 basic perks in logistics, and from pathfinding (which is a requisition for TA) comes another 3, which makes TA nearly impossible to get .
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted December 02, 2007 11:43 PM |
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I made a map for testing, I'll tell you what I'll find out. I do believe however that since teleport assault is an 'expert' perk it has priority over the 'advanced' ones. Hope I'm right.
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pinkspear
Known Hero
Crazy like a fool
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posted December 02, 2007 11:52 PM |
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Me too, but lately when playing with Grok I tried to get TA asap, but not even swift gating showed up at all . Maybe when you get to level 25 which happens quite often ofc...
P.S.: The inferno analysis is almost done
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