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Strider_HL
Famous Hero
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posted June 14, 2008 11:18 AM |
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Edited by Elvin at 11:51, 06 Dec 2009.
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The Caesars tournament 2008
This thread is devoted to discussing the Caesars tournament 2008 rules and games played along with posting replays.
As Ves predicted a lot of whinning and arguing is anticipated therefore I suggest we use the following approach to the issue. Namely, discussion regarding the tournament format goes on for a week after which Ves makes the final, undisputable decision based on opinions voiced and his experience.
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My suggestions:
Playing format
1. version. Two groups with 4-5 players in each (depending on 8-10 participants). Groups are formed based on ranking on a preset date (1-3-5-7-9 and 2-4-6-8-10 accordingly). Contenders play 2 games with each other. Advancement:
a) If group consists of 4 then top 2 of each group advance to semi-finals (A1-B2, A2-B1).
Semi-finals are played till 2 victories, finals till 3 victories.
b) If group consists of 5 then 1st place of each group advances to semi-finals directly while 2nd and 3rd places battle for the remaining position. A2-B3 and A3-B2. Winners join A1 and B2 in semi-finals.
Semi-finals are played till 2 victories, finals till 3 victories.
2. version. Contenders play each other 1 game. Top 4 players after preliminaries advance to play-off. 1st-4th, 2nd-3rd.
Semi-finals are played till 2 victories, finals till 3 victories.
For both versions the number of games is approximately equal.
3. version. Contenders start play-off right away. 2 wins are required for the advancement. 1st - 8th, 2nd - 7th, etc. With this format the main advantage is shorter total tournament time. Semi-finals and finals till 3 victories.
If there are 10 contenders then 7th-10th and 8th-9th play till 2 victories for the final spot to reduce the grid to 8 players.
Game rules
1. version. Players agree individually on the rules but if no consensus can be reached they use "the tournament" rules:
No time limit, no mirror factions, hard, no native war machine heroes (deleb, vittorio, telsek, havez, kaspar), no Wyngaal
2. version. Each game is played by "the tournament" rules (see above). This way the results are more uniform.
In both versions using the TOH MOD is optional if both players agree.
Map selection
Players agree individually on the map but if no consensus can be reached they turn to the "tournament map list" consisting of 7-10 maps. Then, taking turns, both strike out 1 map from the list. The one remaining map is the game map. Striking is started by the player who is lower in the rankings.
Tournament map list needs to be agreed upon. I'd suggest Dragon hill, Master of Disguise, Ashes and Sands, Hourglass, Battlezone, Rat race, Heritage of Deleb, Dead Man's lake, Battle for Honor, Dragon Pass
Game reporting
I feel that the community will only gain if detailed game reports and replays will be posted. This will boost the interest in the tournament held by bunch of arrogant guys that were lucky to finish in top 10. Also, it could become a good learning ground for novices and a good motivation tool to increase one's activity and aim to the tournament next year.
Besides, discussions about the games played will certainly add to the "hype" of heroes and TOH in general 
The winner, besides reporting system of TOH, makes the game report in this thread consisting of:
Map name, faction/main hero for both players, side (blue/red), day of final battle AND A DETAILED (reasonable length) DESCRIPTION of the game progress and key decisions.
Player who lost the game CONFIRMS the game report (by quoting the winners post (except description)) and add his own DESCRIPTION, comments.
Time frame
For 1 game a term of 5 days is provided. The only problem is that the tournament might go on for some 3 months...
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Additional suggestions
End of the season and fixing the final position of Emperors ranking could be June 30, 24.00 Easter time (GMT-5).
Obviously, start of the new season should not be subject to the Caesars tournament.
Please express you opinions and suggestions. Most importantly, guidlines from Ves are welcome.
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Strider_HL
Famous Hero
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posted June 14, 2008 11:41 AM |
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Forgot to write that final battle replay posting in game reports should be mandatory. I think that Fiur's incentive establishing replay thread was great and the Caesars should employ it as well.
Also, about striking out - if the "map list" is odd number then higher ranked player starts second. If the number is even then higher ranked player start the striking first.
Another forgotten aspect:
Faction/hero selection
1. version. Full random or if players agree differently.
2. version. Another striking out. Each player has a list of 8 races available. Opponents may strike out from his own or adversary's list. Final factions in each player's list are the game factions. Striking is started by higher ranked player. No mirror allowed.
Similar striking system has been used and found eligible in heroesleague.ru
Hero is set to RANDOM.
In both versions higher ranked player chooses the color.
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fraudatio
Famous Hero
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posted June 14, 2008 05:09 PM |
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wow, good thread strider, my only concern is that your suggestions are well thought out and balanced, is there some secret agenda?  I like the "chose map" tactic that you sketch up aswell! I guess we can all come up with map alternatives then.
But - interesting thing may be to discuss version 1 vs 2 etc, and if i get to the finals i will share my thoughs. Or, they are so few that you can have them right away:
The gametime needs to be flexible, and not too many games in a short time frame. At least that will make participation more of a struggle than joy for me if i have to finish one game every five days etc. I may try the "ok wife and kids, go off on a 2 months holiday, its the Ceasars coming up"-tactic, but then again i may not.
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted June 14, 2008 06:47 PM |
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Edited by Jinxer at 18:55, 14 Jun 2008.
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Just like Fraud pointed out... I am not emperor so my opinion currently carries no weight... But as for Map options... why is Random Map not an option? I would think taking HOD out and putting Random Large as an Option would be better. HOD is nice for players who want that 10 day fast Duel quick points kinda game, but not really a Ceasar Tournament grade map IMO.
And I agree with Fraud about NO restriction to playing times... Dont forget that alot of the players do have a real life outside of game time.... AND TIMEZONE issues. For example... I am available to play 4 days a week and 5 nights... for a total of 55 hours available play time every week!!! But due to time zone issues fraud and I could only manage to meet up an average of couple hours per week so took us a long time to finsh game. And it was niether of our fault. I was available plenty... our times just didnt mesh... So restricting to 5 days will cause alot of problems.
And also... once ceasar tourny starts... the new season can GO ahead and reset and start.. so everyone else can continue to play... and the ceasar tourny can finish at its own un rushed pace.
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fraudatio
Famous Hero
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posted June 14, 2008 09:54 PM |
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Even though we are not Emperors Jinxer, i must say we are good posters 
Fully agree (not very surprising though, since you agreed with me) - but i see no reason to take maps out. HoD is good if time is scarce, and if both players agree its no reason to deny it. Add Random as an option of course!
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Strider_HL
Famous Hero
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posted June 15, 2008 09:38 AM |
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Damn, that was quick, Fraudatio  9 emperors already and, if Ves decides so, a couple of weeks for last joiners... (Jinx, keep it up!)
About the "tournament map list" - indeed, random map option should be included. Yet, we have to devise setting for it... Should it be played using Nevermindspy's masterpiece, random TEMPLATES (very popular in russian community) or crapy original RMG? What size, etc.?
Concerning HOD, RR and other short maps. They should be included in the list as players can opt to play a quick game or always strike them out. Open various options is the best way to go here, imo.
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Kispagat
Famous Hero
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posted June 15, 2008 10:37 AM |
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If I can vote here it is:
Playing format:
- Play off-right away, version 3 two wins needed, but grid is random not accordingly to the points (I would prefer version 1 with groups, but that would take at least 6 month, I am ready for it tough, if thats the decision. Anyway, are we in a hurry?)
- Game rule: version 1
- Map selection: map list with striking out is ok, but I disagree with RMG, because luck on arties&heroes are enough, we do not need to put the map itself in as a possible decisive factor. (Like if u get randomly wizard on snow, the game is ended)
- Game reporting: bright, yes community needs to know the games, I will always publish my replays, if someone helps me on the technical part
- Time frame: I am ready to accept any kind of time frame (being an emperor is a duty also), just I think if the deadline is failed I wonder how you can sanction it. Btw, I would suggest something like this: player needs to be ready to play 20 hours/week. Availability means that can be seen om msn...
- Faction/hero selection: Random with little modification: After selecting the map players create 5 game. They both strike out 1, so there are 3 left. Then they start the game with that randomly chosen hero/faction. They must follow the order of random creation, so the fist game will be played with the earliest non striked out randomly chosen hero/faction. This way they will know main hero for game 1, game 2, game 3 if needed. This is great in a terms of preparing to the games.
Eg:
Game number:
1. Ylthin - Naadir
2. Jhora - Raven
3. Ossir - Vinrael
4. Sinitar - Garuna
5. Rutger - Dirael
Player 1 strikes out number 2, player 2 strikes out number 3. So the first game will be 1, second will be 4, third if needed will be 5.
This way one hero and the faction is selected, still can get better hero in tavern when you start the game with this preset heroes.
Naturally, these are tournament options, player's agreement allowed to overrule anything.
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fraudatio
Famous Hero
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posted June 15, 2008 03:00 PM |
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- Time frame: Kisps blah bla...
If it is possible to chose whose fault it is that a game cannot be finished, then it is of course ok. Then put up a time frame, and I will either manage or not, no big deal. But, as you point out, its rather hard to sancion. What if E.g me and Jinx have 20 hours online and none of them màtch up? I do, however, agree 100% that there must be SOME kind of timeframe, we do not want one game to hold up the entire finals for weeks.
- Faction/hero selection: Kisps blah bla...
When i first read this i kinda thought you were smoking something that cant be good, but then i got it when i saw the end and examples Thats an interesting way to do it! To be able to eliminate one hopeless (no, there are no hopeless matchups), "overwhelmingly hard" matchup is good. And, as everything else, agreement between players can be everything. Good option though.
Another one is for each player to name one or two factions that qualify for a restart, E.g i say "no fortress for me" and Strider say "no inferno for me". Everything else is a go.
Its great to have these alternative solutions, but I think there has to be one alternative that is the "option of last resort" - that is, when players just cant agree (yeah, i can think of duels where this may be) then there needs to be some version that is the official one, the one to chose if no agreement otherwise is made.
And, we have all some special rules that we like or not. Of course one is the MoD, where some nerfs already are built in. I will mention the ones that i have played with in some games lately, that i think are fairly good, i can easily live without them though
- No DV in final battle
- No Wyngaal
- No Mirror
- No Combination of Ring of Speed and Staff of Netherworld. One of the is ok, and can be combined with ring of celerity etc, but not both Ring of Speed and Staff of Nether. This is my favorite rule
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted June 16, 2008 04:49 AM |
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Still dont understand kisp theory on heroes etc... but I think heroes should be totally random! I realize that majority of the emperors have gotten to the top only by controling every aspect of the game like heroes and faction and map and matchups etc... but if they are truely a skilled player... they should beable to play random heroes. I dont mind picking towns with the strike out etc... but Random heroes should be a tournament standard... unless both players wanna agree to pick heroes.. but if they both cant agree then random is the standard... Just my 2 unearned cents 
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted June 16, 2008 06:25 AM |
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I've said that all along Jinx, and I agree. A truely good player should be able to play random map, random heroes. .
Even a primate can do something over and over and over and become great at it. Takes real skill not to relly on repetition. Take a couple recent matchups with me and phoenix reborn.
First match we had was total random, and he defeated me. It was close, but only because I had fortress and guard post and we were fighting in my castle. Otherwise it would have been a slaughter.
Second match I won, but we choose towns. I had Stronghold, he had Dungeon. We had a couple of bad weeks, and I got lucky with the skills, and I was victorious. Only because I know Stronghold better then any other town however, and he had some rough luck. (Coupled with a lucky Shatter Destruction, delay destruction, magic resistance, and magic resistant boots that I had).
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Message received.
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Elit
Famous Hero
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posted June 16, 2008 07:19 AM |
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Edited by Elit at 07:20, 16 Jun 2008.
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It's so early atm to make big post but for begining map list can't include maps like: Heritage of Deleb, Rat race, Dead Man's lake,Battle For Honor, Dragon pass. It's not serius maps for serius play. Firts to maps are so smal and all this maps are very "simple". Have very limitet arts/guards and 1 bad luck for arts/guard can decide all game. Not place for real play and skills.
Random map can be option too.
Maps need be hard and big enough. For me Hourglass,Ashes and Sands, BattleZone are best option for turnament like this.
About heroes only No Wyngaal. All other heroes are ok.
Can be all random or all choice. Both are ok for me. For sure when ppl do all choice its most interest because put strategy in his play from day 1 and can show his best.
My rules are simple:
No Time limit.No stupid mod. No hit/run (after 2 full turns on battle you can run but not to make dmg on 1st and run befor your oponent act). No Wyngaal.
DV can be ban or not for final battle.
Can be all random or all choice, but no mirror factions on all random.
All heroes/arts/runes can be used in game.
If both players agree rule for: "restart game befor day 3 if someting is going bad." We use this rule with SQ79/Kispagat when we play HG and its help alot for get real 50/50% chances and fun. Not only won is important.
About sistem i prefer : 2. version. Contenders play each other 1 game.
More games better real result and fun.
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Fraudatio
Famous Hero
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posted June 16, 2008 06:45 PM |
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Quote:
It's so early atm to make big post but for begining map list can't include maps like: Heritage of Deleb, Rat race, Dead Man's lake,Battle For Honor, Dragon pass. It's not serius maps for serius play.
Maps need be hard and big enough. For me Hourglass,Ashes and Sands, BattleZone are best option for turnament like this.
I do not agree 100% here Elit, of course large maps are great, but to state that e.g Rat Race is not serious maps is rubbish. However - the selection of maps should be fairly balanced, not 50% small maps or 50% of large and bigger. Then any strikeout will go in favour of the ones that love that type of maps.
But for you to claim that i shouldnt play e.g Rat Race vs Kisp if we both want is plain redicolous. I fully respect that you don`t want to play it though, and you can play any map you like for me
Lets Fight, is that mentioned? A fun map, although very time consuming.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted June 16, 2008 07:14 PM |
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Very chaotic as well. If you get titans guarding your area but do not manage to get resurrection with say haven or sylvan then you can't break week 2 without bad losses. On the other hand necro or dungeon could dispose of them effortlessly. Similarly academy will have trouble without a phoenix if they get magmas, how on earth can you do that? My best bet was week 3 with blessed colossi and arcane armour/regeneration.
The middle is too good to let the other get to it first, 4 level ups, 2 arenas, utopia, artifact merchants, arcane library and many artifacts. That's the epitome of unfairness for me.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted June 16, 2008 07:19 PM |
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In Let's Fight the game is decided in the first 2 weeks. Who takes the lvl 7 building first has won 80%.
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Elit
Famous Hero
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posted June 16, 2008 08:15 PM |
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I do not agree 100% here Elit, of course large maps are great, but to state that e.g Rat Race is not serious maps is rubbish.
RR is nice map and very fun BUT it's not serius map for Caesars tournament. All smal mals are NOT balanced and CANT be balanced. Because here have so limited fight and one crap guard can decide game. On smal maps not much arts and luck decide alot.
I have few games on RR and know what i talk. If you get craps here you cant change it vs good oponent so game will be over from begining.
If i need to play vs alot good oponent i will choice map like RR so i'm full understand fraudatio (joking)
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Fraudatio
Famous Hero
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posted June 16, 2008 09:44 PM |
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haha, well, to be honest you have a point, if i would chose a map vs you or strider it would be the smaller the better. But anyway, I think maps like: Master of Disguise, Dragon Hill are good medium choices. And like yourself I love BattleZone.
And - in a 3 match game I would suggest one large, one medium and one small, the best will win anyway, and it will add a bit of versaillity to the game. Or, we chose one map each for instance, lots of opportunities
Btw, Elit, shouldn`t you be practicing now?
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Strider_HL
Famous Hero
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posted June 17, 2008 02:56 PM |
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Good to see the discussion evolving though only half of emperors have posted and Ves is stuck in 180 hours flight 
Seems that so far we agree only on "Map selection" system, "Game reporting" and, to some extent, "Time frame". Here are my comments on various ideas expressed above:
- only big maps and no random map in the "tournament map list"
Obvioulsy, the last thing we need is to start medling with players' preferences if they BOTH agree to play small or random map. Besides, the striking out system allows banishing unwanted maps. The only problem I see resides with random map settings... please, suggest the system here!
- faster vs. longer tournament
As for me then I vote for quality as most of us here. That would involve choosing between version 1 and 2 from Playing format. Calculations show that the turnament would last for 10 weeks presuming maximum of 14 games (5 days/game) for finalists. Obviously, the Caesars can be run simultaneously with the new season. Anyway, let's see what Ves has to say...
- faction/hero selection
I did not completely grasp Kis's idea. Personally I tend to vote for full random. Also, I will always offer opponent to use the TOH MOD as currently some factions can produce results that are too amazing.
Faction striking out system is better, imo, if game is played without the mod. Besides, it opens a nice banning contest that requires some thought from players! And lastly, if only 2 games are required to win play-off series, full random can easily produce some unbalanced matchups. To summarize, I like full random better but will be satisfied with either system.
- factions that qualify for restart
IMO emperor grade players must be adept with each of 8 factions. I strongly object to naming factions for restart option.
- no hit and run with 2 turns limit
Not really sure about this as haven't experienced it for ages. But it sounds reasonable. I wonder if other will agree. Though 2 turns rule is tricky... Following the game mechanics it should be measured against initiative 10 but then it's hard to measure. And saying "2 turns for your zombies" is incorrect as well...
- restarting the game before day 3 if smth goes wrong
I disagree here as on most maps in 2 days one can have 3-6 fights and several level-ups, etc. All this sounds cheaterish and unbalanced. What if opponent did well and you bad? After restart it might be vice versa... Another restart? Not serious... Of course, if both agree it's always possible but by no means should be included into the tournament rules.
- game settings
Everyone agrees about banning Wyngaal. Some expressed the idea of banning DV in final battle. But here is the problem - in 1 castle maps it's quite stupid if you get DV in guild and are deprived of lvl 4 magic. We all know that the guy behind thick glasses is against it but I would recommend emperors to use the TOH MOD in order to avoid abuse of stalkers, have DV option open and reduce rushing with w/m + flaming.
Also, I would strongly recommend not using native w/m heroes if the game is played without the TOH MOD. Imagine Telsek with early flaming arrows... Anyway, I'll offer my honored opponents TOH MOD possibility as I strongly believe it will reduce grumbling after the game or finals where one hero has twice as many skillpoints.
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Kispagat
Famous Hero
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posted June 17, 2008 05:58 PM |
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I try to explain my method a little bit more, maybe I will get more supporters:
Presumptions:
1. Map agreed
2. System is best of 3 (2 wins needed)
1. Players generate 5, full random turn 1.
2. They do not play, just write down randomly generated hero and faction
3. Both strike out one
4. They start to play lowest, non striked out game by picking hero/faction. This will be game one. Then next non striked out pair will be game 2....etc
This way pairing are generated full random, but each player can strike out what he thinks worst for him.
In that way hopeless random pair has lower chance. You can get better hero from tavern.
I hope thats clearer now.
If the question is pick or random, I vote for full random. (Btw full random gives more chance to beat better players, cuz its quite easy to know what factions are bad on a map)
Naturally if I need to play with Elit, we will use our rules on HG, thats sure.
But Strider is right in a sense that we need rules for non-agreement.
On the other hand I dont mind playing Fraudatio on RR, maybe we will agree to play 5 instead of 3, if we feel that little map gives lower chance to any of us, AND we can finish best of 5 in approx same time frame, when the others play 3.
(For me 5 is not a big problem, cuz 1 of it surely a suicide)
I would suggest to vote for the system first, cuz thats the most important. If we agree that each emperor will play with each one, than we could start immediatelly.
I am sure that I can agree with almost anyone on other issues.
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Strider_HL
Famous Hero
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posted June 17, 2008 08:37 PM |
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I see it now, Kis Seems very good to me! It also solves to some extent the problem of facing dungeon without the TOH MOD. Fine suggestion, indeed
Sure, players can and most probably will play on ANY rules they'd agree mutually. There is no way or need(?) to control it. After all, you could just throw the dice 3 times, invent the game description and be done with it hehe
You are right about the importance of playing format. Yet, we do need Ves decision on this issue! Also, maybe there will be some grace period till June 30th for runner ups...
Btw, I forgot to comment on Kis's suggestion for playing format version 3 - play-off right away with RANDOM pairing. Well, that would make the whole ranking system irrelevant, wouldn't it? Besides, the common practice for tournaments with ranking is rewarding the top seeds with lower-end seeds and the world has seen it to work just fine Well, poor top seeds who are matched up with hot new stars...
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted June 18, 2008 02:20 AM |
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Quote:
I - play-off right away with RANDOM pairing. Well, that would make the whole ranking system irrelevant, wouldn't it? Besides, the common practice for tournaments with ranking is rewarding the top seeds with lower-end seeds poor top seeds who are matched up with hot new stars...
Strider -- is that why you havent played any games in a month??? Cause you been trying to make sure you stayed as #1 at end of season?
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