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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted January 04, 2010 10:57 AM |
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It is amusing to me that on one hand somebody can say. "This being always existed, is outside our known laws, etc etc etc." then turn around and say "The universe can not always have existed, can't be outside our known laws, etc etc etc." They claim that thermodynamics proves god, when it doesn't prove any such thing.
While I am a firm believer that 'something' happened, it may be beyond our present comprehension. We may know of it in the future, and it might make perfect sense, but currently we are totally clueless.
Then there is the 'historical document' fallacy. Let us take the show Law and Order. It uses historical/true/accurate cases (that actually happned) but is PURE fiction otherwise. Also, there are parts of this 'historical document' that has not been proven to actually ever have happened. For instance Eden..
Even if it does have historical accuracies, that does not make it not fiction.
Is it fiction? I don't know. Guess there is only one way to find out, and by then..it will be too late anyhow.
Does it teach good things. IN THE RIGHT HANDS.
Is christianity any better then the other religions out there? Nope.
Is it any worse? Nope.
Fear has pretty much conquered the world, and it has given in to hate or anger. We all fear what we can not understand, and that fear manifests itself as Anger, Hate, Paranoia.
This particular discussion still goes nowhere. One side thinks that everybody who disagrees with them are atheist, liers, or worse. The other side thinks that the people on the first side are delusional, closeminded, or worse. So..why are you all chasing rainbows?
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted January 04, 2010 11:07 AM |
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There are always people in the middle. People who choose to believe (or not to) because of their own reasons, and who respect those who have chosen the opposite.
Like me, for example ? 
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Binabik
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Legendary Hero
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posted January 04, 2010 11:50 AM |
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The vast majority of people are in the middle. Probably 99.9 percent of both Christians and atheists never get involved in these debates. As Myt said, it's chasing rainbows and goes nowhere.
What I find interesting is that Elodin claims to be Christian, and everyone argues with him as such, but it's highly questionable by many mainstream Christians and others (including myself) if Pentecostal is even a true Christian religion. I almost consider it a cult more than a legitimate Christian sect.
Furthermore, Elodin goes around quoting the Bible, which tells me that he doesn't even understand Christianity. Anyone with a good understanding about any subject, including Christianity, should know it well enough to speak about it without constantly quoting someone else.
I've only read a very small portion of his posts, but from what I've read he does not even come close to representing a typical Christian. But the evangelical types who perceive it as their duty to preach to everyone are by far the most visible, and therefore non-Christians see them as typical when they are not. It seems to me that the large majority of Christians rarely talk about it, if ever. I've known people for a few years before I found out they were Christian.
I guess that's true of many groups. Very often the most visible are far from representative, yet the entire group is judged by the actions of those few.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted January 04, 2010 12:23 PM |
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Quote:
What I find interesting is that Elodin claims to be Christian, and everyone argues with him as such, but it's highly questionable by many mainstream Christians and others (including myself) if Pentecostal is even a true Christian religion. I almost consider it a cult more than a legitimate Christian sect.
Oh, so you are calling me a non-Christian then? I say Jesus Christ is Lord. I have repented of my sins. I have been baptized. I have obeyed from the heart what the Bible says to do to be saved.
Yes, I am aware some consider Pentecostals to be non-Christians and heretics. The Catholic church murdered oneness believers. But all believers originally spake in tongues and all believers believed God is one and all believers were baptized in the name of Jesus.
Even though all original Christians believed these things I don't say that everyone has to be 100% theologically correct on all issues to be a Christian.
It is interesting that one who follows the teachings of the Bibe is not a Christian. Perhaps you could explain to me why you do not consider Pentecostals to be Christians.
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Furthermore, Elodin goes around quoting the Bible, which tells me that he doesn't even understand Christianity. Anyone with a good understanding about any subject, including Christianity, should know it well enough to speak about it without constantly quoting someone else.
You seem not to understand that the Bible is the authoritative source of Christian doctrine. Jesus himself quoted the Old Covenant writings. You will find quotes of the Scriptures in most of the books of the Bible. I am supreised that you say you are a Christian and do not seem to know this. Do you personally study the Bible?
One could easily claim that the Bible says this or that. If one claims the Bbile teahes something he should back it up with quotes from the Bible itself.
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I've only read a very small portion of his posts, but from what I've read he does not even come close to representing a typical Christian. But the evangelical types who perceive it as their duty to preach to everyone are by far the most visible, and therefore non-Christians see them as typical when they are not. It seems to me that the large majority of Christians rarely talk about it, if ever. I've known people for a few years before I found out they were Christian.
First, I do not preach on this site. I respond to questions about the Bible with quotes from the Bible. That is hardly preaching.
Secondly, are you unaware of the command of Christ to share the gospel with others?
I would doubt that anyone is a Christian who I had known for years if I only found out years later "Oh, he is a Christian." That is not the Christianity the Bible describes.
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It is amusing to me that on one hand somebody can say. "This being always existed, is outside our known laws, etc etc etc." then turn around and say "The universe can not always have existed, can't be outside our known laws, etc etc etc." They claim that thermodynamics proves god, when it doesn't prove any such thing.
We know from observations of the Hubble telescop as well as from the laws of thermodynamics that the universe is not eternal and could not come into being from absolute nothing without a cause. I find it amusing anyone could suggets tht universe could come into existence on its own or that it could be eternal.
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Mytical
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Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted January 04, 2010 12:40 PM |
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The Hubble telescope shows us nothing. Not a fraction of a percent of a small portion of the universe. Let alone explain the mysteries of the universe. We are but ants standing on a small speck of sand thinking that we know what the endless beach in front of us looks like.
So a old guy with a white beard can be eternal, but the vast cosmic tapestry that is the universe can't? Interesting.
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Message received.
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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted January 04, 2010 12:40 PM |
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Elodin, I'm not going to argue with you about religion. My main point should have been obvious, that you are not representative of Christians.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted January 04, 2010 01:23 PM |
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Quote:
Elodin, I'm not going to argue with you about religion. My main point should have been obvious, that you are not representative of Christians.
Ah, you say Pentecostals are a cult rather than legitimate Christian sect and then you cut and run. Ok. I take that as you are unable to defend your charges. When you are ready to present your Biblical evidence that Pentecostals are non-Christians let me know and we'll debate the subject. Please don't make such charges in the future unless you are willing to back them up.
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The Hubble telescope shows us nothing. Not a fraction of a percent of a small portion of the universe. Let alone explain the mysteries of the universe. We are but ants standing on a small speck of sand thinking that we know what the endless beach in front of us looks like.
So a old guy with a white beard can be eternal, but the vast cosmic tapestry that is the universe can't? Interesting.
Perhapse you shold do some research on the Hubble Telescope and COBE. There is no longer any doubt that the universe had a definite beginning.
Yeah, like I've explained numberous times before, God is not material. Matter and energy are subject to the laws of thermodynamics and can't be eternal. God is a Spirit.
It is obvious that there could not be an infinite regression of causes. The first cause had to be immaterial, spaceless, timeless, powerful, self-existant, and aware of itself, since it made a decision to end the state of nothingness. God.
Oh, I don't view God as some old guy with a white beard.
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dimis
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Digitally signed by FoG
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posted January 04, 2010 03:40 PM |
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Edited by dimis at 15:56, 04 Jan 2010.
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Elodin, you are heretic by definition. So don't try to teach me your interpretations of what you read. That's one thing.
The other thing is, that what you gave as a "proof" is more or less problematic and this is a consequence of reading comprehension problems. So, let's examine:
In Luk 24:49 you write "promise" and not "Promise" (or something else), because it is meant just that; a promise. Jesus merely asks his students to wait in Jerusalem until they are "visited" by the Holy Spirit. In Acts 1:4 it is also clarified that the students should wait because Jesus has "warned" them it will happen.
So, you have nothing, as expected since you are heretic, but it is ok.
And to make it even more precise, let's look on probably the most precious book of the New Testament; John. In particular 15:26.
It is stated clearly that the Holy Spirit is sent by the Father. John leaves no ambiguity on that one.
And that verse follows the other one on 14:26 which says that the Father will send the Spirit on Jesus' behalf. Why does this happen ? Is Jesus lazy ? Of course not. It is just that the Holy Spirit is always sent by the Father. And 15:26 makes this clear.
But then again, you are a heretic who thinks that knows everything.
And you know, here we have more problems. If you can not interpret right your "mastery" (religion), then everything is more or less questionable. And here I mean Physics and the interpretation you give on Physics.
If you want philosophical arguments on "how things came to be", then probably you should turn your focus to Physics. I already gave you some references, and trust me, I will give you more. In case you missed them:
(1) What is time ?, Lee Smolin
(2) What Happened Before the Big Bang ?, Paul Davies
- In which for the question "What happened before the Big Bang?" the verdict is "nothing", as is "nothing" the answer to "what lies northern from North Pole?"
Yesterday I found another article which has 2 interesting figures regarding the beginning of the universe:
(3) The day time began, Paul Davies
And perhaps the most important thing of all these (and what is about to come), is already explained by Richard Dawkins in his letter to his 10 year-old daughter. If you are determined to know what and more importantly why scientists believe such and such and you follow the path of sciences, then you will know. But then again, you don't really care about the truth if you have to spend lots of time to understand the concepts now, do you ?
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The empty set
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted January 04, 2010 04:35 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 16:51, 04 Jan 2010.
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Quote:
Elodin, you are heretic by definition. So don't try to teach me your interpretations of what you read. That's one thing.
Oh, so you get to say who is a heretic and who is not, eh?
Quote:
The other thing is, that what you gave as a "proof" is more or less problematic and this is a consequence of reading comprehension problems. So, let's examine:
In Luk 24:49 you write "promise" and not "Promise" (or something else), because it is meant just that; a promise. Jesus merely asks his students to wait in Jerusalem until they are "visited" by the Holy Spirit. In Acts 1:4 it is also clarified that the students should wait because Jesus has "warned" them it will happen.
So, you have nothing, as expected since you are heretic, but it is ok.
And to make it even more precise, let's look on probably the most precious book of the New Testament; John. In particular 15:26.
It is stated clearly that the Holy Spirit is sent by the Father. John leaves no ambiguity on that one.
And that verse follows the other one on 14:26 which says that the Father will send the Spirit on Jesus' behalf. Why does this happen ? Is Jesus lazy ? Of course not. It is just that the Holy Spirit is always sent by the Father. And 15:26 makes this clear.
But then again, you are a heretic who thinks that knows everything.
Unfortunatelly, your "interpretation" is problematic.
Jesus clearly stated that he will send the Spirit. Perhaps you are calling Jesus a heretic also?
Luk 24:49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
Quote:
Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Uh-oh, looks like Jesus contradicts what you are saying. Jesus is the one who is wrong, of course.
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Joh 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
Joh 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
Joh 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
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Joh 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
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Act 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Uh-oh, looks like Peter was a heretic too. Somebody needeth to do more reading of the Bible beofre he openeth he mouth and proclaimeth people to be heretics.
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Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
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Joh 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
Joh 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
I almost forgot to include that heretic John the Baptist.
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If you are determined to know what and more importantly why scientists believe such and such and you follow the path of sciences, then you will know. But then again, you don't really care about the truth if you have to spend lots of time to understand the concepts now, do you ?
Sir, if you say I am the one who does not care about truth you are a liar.
Rather than post links that you most likely don't understand, post in your own words. Oh, and I've seen Dawkins trouncd in debates. He has no explaination for the origin of the universe. Lol! He said one time that aliens originated the universe. But then who made the aliens? Atheists have to make such stupid statements to try to defend their dogma.
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dimis
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Digitally signed by FoG
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posted January 04, 2010 07:24 PM |
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Edited by dimis at 19:49, 04 Jan 2010.
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Elodin, I repeat: You are heretic by definition. Just look up what heretic means.
John 16:7: The Holy Spirit will reach Jesus' students as a consequence of His death. Read the passage again.
John 7:37-39: You have reading comprehension problems.
John 4:10: You use this passage as an argument that Jesus sends the Holy Spirit ?
Act 2:33: "having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost" == The Father sent the Holy Spirit to Jesus. Another good argument for your case!
As I said, you are heretic.
Matthew 3:11: Your English translation is misleading, although it still doesn't imply what you say. The bold part that you quote only says that Jesus will be possessed by the Holy Spirit when He will baptize others.
John 1:32-33: Again, all it says is that John saw Jesus receiving the Holy Spirit.
Receive =/= Send.
As I said, you are heretic. The more you quote the more apparent it will be.
I am asking whether or not you are interested in the truth because your actions do not indicate so.
As of my links, I try to post real philosophical arguments as these are crystallized through science. I am not an expert in cosmology, quantum mechanics, relativity, and Physics in general. However, I do believe in the work of these guys because they didn't wake up one day and agreed on believing something; that part I know first handed. They have their reasons. And above all, they are the most capable of answering these sort of questions. Moreover, your questions as to what happened before the Big Bang seem to have no meaning for modern Physics. So keep on striking in that direction. You understand the concepts and the guys in the links above do not.
Finally, try not to preach too much when you talk about subjects you do not know and you have never actually tried to understand. This is very irritating. You talk as if you are an authority on both Religion and modern sciences. Do you have the credentials ? You have been asked in the past ... Thank God we can see your arguments.
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The empty set
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted January 04, 2010 08:57 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 21:02, 04 Jan 2010.
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Quote:
Elodin, I repeat: You are heretic by definition. Just look up what heretic means.
Quote:
her⋅e⋅tic  /n. ˈhɛrɪtɪk; adj. ˈhɛrɪtɪk, həˈrɛtɪk/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [n. her-i-tik; adj. her-i-tik, huh-ret-ik] Show IPA
Use heretic in a Sentence
See web results for heretic
See images of heretic
–noun 1. a professed believer who maintains religious opinions contrary to those accepted by his or her church or rejects doctrines prescribed by that church.
2. Roman Catholic Church. a baptized Roman Catholic who willfully and persistently rejects any article of faith.
3. anyone who does not conform to an established attitude, doctrine, or principle.
You appear to have a reading comprehension problem. My church does not call me a heretic. I am not a Roman Catholic. I conform to the attitudes, doctrines, and principles set forth in the Bible, which happens to be the doctrine of my church.
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John 16:7: The Holy Spirit will reach Jesus' students as a consequence of His death. Read the passage again.
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Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
You said Jesus does not send the Spirit. You appear to be unable to crmprehend simple sentences.
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John 7:37-39: You have reading comprehension problems.
Quote:
Joh 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
Joh 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
Joh 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
Jesus said if you want the Spirit come to him and drink of the Spirit. It seems you are either having trouble reading or that you are a liar.
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John 4:10: You use this passage as an argument that Jesus sends the Holy Spirit ?
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Joh 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
Your apparant lack of reading comprehansion is distrubing. Jesus said he gives the living water to drink. Comparre that to John 7:37-39 and you see the living water is the Spirit. He is not talking of a glass of ice water. Try to focus.
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Act 2:33: "having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost" == The Father sent the Holy Spirit to Jesus. Another good argument for your case!
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Act 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, Quote:
he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear
.
Your apparant lack or reading comprehensions skill would seem to indicate you never finished primary school. I suggest you return to school if this is the indeed the case.
The above verse says that Jesus "shed forth" what the crowd was seeing and hearing. Ther crowd saw a manifestiation of the Spirit and heard the believers speaking in tongues after the Holy Ghost "fell" on them.
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Matthew 3:11: Your English translation is misleading, although it still doesn't imply what you say. The bold part that you quote only says that Jesus will be possessed by the Holy Spirit when He will baptize others.
I'm sorry, but you appear to by lying or suffering from reading comprehension troubles.
John quite clearly says that he baptises with water but that Jesus will baptize with the Holy Spirit.
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John 1:32-33: Again, all it says is that John saw Jesus receiving the Holy Spirit.
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John 1:32-33: Again, all it says is that John saw Jesus receiving the Holy Spirit.
Receive =/= Send.
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Joh 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
Joh 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
Again, it says Jesus baptizes with the Holy Ghost.
From your statments I could conclude one of two things:
1) You can't read very well.
2) You are a troll.
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I am asking whether or not you are interested in the truth because your actions do not indicate so.
Please see my above conclusions.
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Finally, try not to preach too much when you talk about subjects you do not know and you have never actually tried to understand
See my above conclusions.
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dimis
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Digitally signed by FoG
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posted January 04, 2010 09:17 PM |
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The real fun part begins when non-greeks try to "teach" me greek. Go on, you are not the first one.
I will also give you another hint; filioque.
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The empty set
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted January 04, 2010 11:14 PM |
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Edited by bixie at 23:16, 04 Jan 2010.
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Quote:
From your statments I could conclude one of two things:
1) You can't read very well.
2) You are a troll.
Did I just read what I think I just read?
Did Elodin just call someone a troll?!
This would actually be funny if it wasn't for the fact these who are starting some kind of zealous flame-war, declaring eachother heretics...
and as usual, Elodin resorts to insulting his oponents intelligence when he's been called out on something.
You know, It's really quiet funny. just ignore this post, Dimis and Elodin, It's the words of a man whose found some source of endless amusement on this forum.
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Love, Laugh, Learn, Live.
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dimis
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Digitally signed by FoG
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posted January 04, 2010 11:31 PM |
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For me it is amusing too. He is about to teach me Greek.
Moreover, heretic is not an insult. It is what it is. Read about filioque.
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The empty set
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted January 05, 2010 12:03 AM |
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I love elodin.
Every single sentence of his in his last post:
You seem to lack reading compre*insert hidden insult that denies the argument*
Which is the OSM-equivalent of: "Nuh-uh!" or "Did not!"
EDIT: The catholic church would probably have sent the pentecostals to the pyre, if they had co-existed around the time of the inquisition (the several hundred years before and after that, as well)
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted January 05, 2010 02:06 AM |
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Quote:
The Hubble telescope shows us nothing.
This has to be sarcastic, right?Quote:
You talk as if you are an authority on both Religion and modern sciences.
I thought the very idea of science was supposed to be lack of adherence to authority.
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The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
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dimis
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Digitally signed by FoG
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posted January 05, 2010 02:28 AM |
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The meaning TheDeath is to be a - so called - "expert" in the field; see 4a here.
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The empty set
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted January 05, 2010 06:36 AM |
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Edited by Mytical at 06:56, 05 Jan 2010.
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Quote:
Perhapse you shold do some research on the Hubble Telescope and COBE. There is no longer any doubt that the universe had a definite beginning.
A long time ago we KNEW that the earth was the center of the universe.
We KNEW that the world was flat.
We KNEW that man would never fly.
Wonder what we will KNOW tomorrow.
I am not saying that some outside force didn't 'create' the universe. For all I know it did, wasn't there. Just that it has as much chance being Cthulu as it does 'God'. You have proved nothing. Nope, you don't have to prove nothing. No, I can't disprove an OPINION (something not supported by facts is an opinion, regardless how you cut it). You can post your opinion as cold hard facts as much as you like, still doesn't make them not OPINIONS.
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Message received.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted January 05, 2010 07:26 PM |
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Quote:
A long time ago we KNEW that the earth was the center of the universe.
We KNEW that the world was flat.
We KNEW that man would never fly.
Wonder what we will KNOW tomorrow.
You know that's not how science works. The Hubble Space Telescope collects light data. So yeah, it "shows" us a lot. What you interpret that light as, is another part, where you think it gives you "knowledge" of the Universe.
Science deals with predictions of models/theories, not with gaining absolute knowledge. Whether you assign knowledge to your predictions is another matter altogether -- I'd say that's a philosophy. You believe that repeated predictions shows truth.
For all we know, the laws of physics can change tomorrow. That doesn't mean the Hubble Space Telescope didn't show us anything, it did, it gives us INFORMATION, not KNOWLEDGE. It just means that "knowledge" is impossible to measure and verify -- and such things are outside the realm of science.
Information, though, is not.
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The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted January 05, 2010 07:46 PM |
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We KNEW that the world was flat.
This hasn't been thought in at least 2300 years, but I think it's even more than that.
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Wonder what we will KNOW tomorrow.
I wonder what we will KNEW tommorrow m i rite?
Or better yet (to fit the rules of grammar):
I wonder what we KNEW tommorrow.
Though, the argument that science is flawed and can't provide absolute answers, because the absolute aswers of back in the day were incorrect is kind of... I don't know. You must've been really hurt when they told you santa didn't exist and promptly decided to never believe anyone tells you without tangible proof ever again 
On a more serious note, I don't see what's the harm in borrowing credence to something, until a more plausible theory sums up. Unlike some religions, this doesn't claim you'll end up in hell, if you believe the wrong thing. I didn't mean to offend you and I apologise, if I did. I'm not expecting to have changed your world or anything (though, I have been known to do just that), but what you claim sometimes doesn't seem very reasonable.
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