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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted July 25, 2011 05:13 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 17:24, 25 Jul 2011.
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The town windows are no new idea, there is nothing new about them. They are just degraded quality. Surely you should be able to make a difference if you drop this stubbornness worthy of a rhino for a while.
As for the time better spent on other things - it's beyond me how the devs had the time to make 4 games after the first one, introducing new features in each one and still having enough time to make full town screen and interface. A mystery indeed...
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 25, 2011 05:25 PM |
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Successful troll is successful
____________
What will happen now?
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Aosaw
Promising
Famous Hero
Author of Nonreal Fiction
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posted July 25, 2011 05:31 PM |
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Let's talk a little bit about resource management, Cleo.
When a video game goes into development, depending on the size of the project, the team breaks off into several different groups. One group manages artwork, one group manages game mechanics and/or level design, one group manages the User Interface...there are other areas of the game that merit their own groups as well. Obviously, with a smaller project there will be some overlap among these areas, but the areas do exist, and the people in each group know what their job is. I work in software design, and I can tell you that this is the best way to make it work, with one person (or group of people) assigned to each task.
It doesn't take twenty people to create a user interface, just as it doesn't take fifty people to work on gameplay.
When we talk about UI changes, we're talking about one, two, maybe three people (again, it depends on the size of the project) whose job it is to specifically keep an eye on the UI and make it both pretty and functional. Your UI technician isn't a part of the game mechanics group; if he's part of any other group, it's artwork.
To say that "time is better spent on gameplay" is moot. Because it's different people working on gameplay than the ones working on UI. That's the only way game design works well. Which means that if the UI people aren't designing a town screen for us right now, it's not because they're busy making the Seraphs balanced.
If anything, it's because they are working on the UI changes we want, and it's going to take longer than Ubisoft wants it to. My prediction is that the game will be released without the town screen - it's six weeks out now, and the game goes "gold" at least a week before it ships. So we're really talking about a month to totally revamp the UI for the game, for a group of designers who might be working on more than just this game.
So let's stop saying that it has to be a choice between town screens and better gameplay. It's not an either or situation. It's a question of whether or not Ubisoft is willing to delay the game's release because, out of the hundreds (probably thousands, if not more) of fans who will miss the town screens, only a handful of those fans will choose not to buy the game because of it. "We'll release a patch", they'll say, and then everybody will be happy. But in the mean-time, they do have a business to run, and delaying the game means delaying sales, which means that the revenue from H6 comes later and might mess up a whole bunch of other projects that are waiting in the wings.
Really. The game was supposed to be released in March. It's already been delayed six months. That's death to a company's bottom line.
They're not going to delay the game when they can easily release a patch or six. It's just not good business.
The mistake was not including town screens in the first place. So we can hate them for that. But don't make the mistake of thinking that since they weren't a part of the original plan, it's okay to just leave them out in favor of gameplay enhancements. The two aren't remotely connected.
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Aosaw
Promising
Famous Hero
Author of Nonreal Fiction
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posted July 25, 2011 05:48 PM |
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Edited by Aosaw at 17:50, 25 Jul 2011.
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A second post, for a second reply - because the whole "opposed to new ideas" soapbox that Cleo just hopped on really needs addressing.
Let's take the Master Sword out of Zelda.
Let's take Sub Zero out of Mortal Kombat.
Let's take Lara Croft out of Tomb Raider.
Let's take the Metal Gear out of Metal Gear Solid.
Let's take mushrooms out of Super Mario.
Let's take lightsabers out of Star Wars.
Don't whine about "It's not Mario without mushrooms". That's an old-fashioned, nostalgia-driven perspective that's only held by people who can't handle new ideas.
Don't complain that it's not a Zelda game without the Master Sword. Sure it is. It's called "Zelda", isn't it? Your need for the "Master Sword" is akin to your need for such old-fashioned concepts as the "Triforce" and "Zelda" and "Link".
The town screens are the same. You don't get rid of them "just because I can". And wanting them back isn't something to be brushed aside as nostalgia driven whining. When you get rid of an old idea, you should have two things to back it up:
A) A better idea.
B) A reason why the old idea needed to be scrapped.
We don't have either. Can you honestly tell me that the town window is better than the town screen?
And I want to meet the guy who said to Ubisoft, "Hey, you know what's really old-fashioned and needs to be gotten rid of? Town screens."
I want to meet that guy. Because I'm pretty sure there's only one of him.
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Nelgirith
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted July 25, 2011 06:14 PM |
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Quote:
My prediction is that the game will be released without the town screen
You're predicting something they already officially announced ? 
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Really. The game was supposed to be released in March. It's already been delayed six months. That's death to a company's bottom line.
So what ? Starcraft 2 has been delayed by 2 years and Diablo 3 is also 2 years late already. I don't get all this crying about postponing a game's release. It's just like screaming "waaaah waaah I wanted my game in March !"
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They're not going to delay the game when they can easily release a patch or six. It's just not good business.
Since you show your lack of knowledge, know that a patch costs a LOT more money than delaying a game. Why do you think H5 did get so few patches when there was so much to patch ? Why do you think Blizzard has been postponing content patches by a few weeks in order to fix bugs BEFORE releasing the content ? Why do you think most companies are waiting to have enough corrections to make one big patch rather than having several mini-patches ?
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted July 25, 2011 06:30 PM |
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Edited by Cepheus at 18:31, 25 Jul 2011.
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Quote:
Plus, lets be honest, the only people upset with HoMM6 are old fans which can't tolerate new ideas. It's the classic problem of the old to be opposed to the new, regardless of how it actually affects them. Lol, the funny thing is that it's not Ubi's problem, it's yours.
I understand that you are quite willing to accept the town screens as they are, but please don't frame your viewpoint with "let's be honest". Not to be tactless about it, but your comment isn't objectively honest at all - it's actually rather the complete opposite.
I have a reasonable understanding of the development history of the series, and in about seven years with the Heroes of Might and Magic community I've never once seen any single feature so singularly, unanimously criticised as these town screens have been. Never! Now, I caveat this in that I wasn't there to see the complaining about the Forge firsthand, but I think it may have been slightly worse than this (there were fansite boycotts). But you really can't expect to be taken seriously by coming along here and exclaiming that only nostalgic buffoons calling themselves fans are the ones in opposition to these things.
On a purely logical level, you can't possibly prove that the 171 people who voted to bring back classic town screens are intolerant bigots - I think that is actually a very insulting generalisation considering some of the enlightened and rational posts in this thread. Furthermore, the majority of these people have passed no comment on their vote here - since any registered member can vote, new, old or otherwise, who are you to tar them all with the "bunch of raving nostalgia addicts" brush? Are you trying to tell me that there are only 26 members at HC who are new to the series and are not raving nostalgia addicts? And that there is not a single new fan who would have voted against them?
There is also the Ubisoft forums' poll which currently shows 491 people voting for fullscreen town screens against 45 who think they are fine (again, most of whom haven't commented). So let's assume that, on the off chance, you are absolutely correct and approximately 600 raving nostalgia addicts have united in a mass internet conspiracy to influence Ubisoft. On the previous page you ask, tongue-in-cheek, whether Ubisoft is wise to let them dictate their decisions.
Well, Cleo, if you were one of the decision-makers faced with 600 potential buyers who are in doubt whether or not to purchase your product based on one design move, against 70 customers who vote "I do not care" and will buy it one way or the other, tell me, what would you deem to be the wise course of action? I am very interested in hearing your answer.
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"Those who forget their history are inevitably doomed to repeat it." —Proverb, Might and Magic VIII
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Aosaw
Promising
Famous Hero
Author of Nonreal Fiction
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posted July 25, 2011 07:14 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
My prediction is that the game will be released without the town screen
You're predicting something they already officially announced ?
Okay, let me rephrase that: I don't think they're going to change what they've already announced just because everybody hates the town windows (to some degree - not everyone hates it as much as I do, for instance, but I think we can mostly agree that we don't like the town window).
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Really. The game was supposed to be released in March. It's already been delayed six months. That's death to a company's bottom line.
So what ? Starcraft 2 has been delayed by 2 years and Diablo 3 is also 2 years late already. I don't get all this crying about postponing a game's release. It's just like screaming "waaaah waaah I wanted my game in March !"
That's because Blizzard's games are always solid, no matter what. I don't hear anyone complaining about balance issues or UI changes in their games. They know what they're doing, and the fans trust them for that.
But when you're figuring out your budget for the next six months, and you've got one game that's not only delaying its release by six months but is also going to cost more money to pay your employees to fix all the problems with it, that costs a lot of money. It costs money, and it brings exactly no money in. Sure, you might eventually get that money back, but you don't have it now. And six months is a long time to wait.
Don't mistake me; I would rather the game be delayed and then released properly with all the bugs fixed and the UI that the fans want. But the company loses money for every day that its product is not on shelves being bought. Companies like Blizzard can afford to wait, because games like World of Warcraft have a constant stream of revenue that is independent of patches and expansions, which sustains them (and comfortably) while they tweak and perfect their other games. Ubisoft doesn't have that luxury; they have to create the game, and then release it, as soon as possible.
Quote:
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They're not going to delay the game when they can easily release a patch or six. It's just not good business.
Since you show your lack of knowledge, know that a patch costs a LOT more money than delaying a game. Why do you think H5 did get so few patches when there was so much to patch ? Why do you think Blizzard has been postponing content patches by a few weeks in order to fix bugs BEFORE releasing the content ? Why do you think most companies are waiting to have enough corrections to make one big patch rather than having several mini-patches ?
Really? How much do you know about it? I want to hear the numbers. I want to see your resume. I want to read your research. If you're going to call me out for ignorance, you'd better have the info to back up your claim.
Because it sucks to release a patch. It means a lot of late nights for the developers, fixing bugs and tweaking gameplay, just to make the software usable. It means making sure that the patch doesn't break the system. It's a headache. I know; I've been through it. I know people who have been through it. It isn't fun.
But it's not impossible. And when the company compares the headache of the patch with the cost of not releasing on time, sometimes the release date wins.
Companies wait to release patches because they don't like doing them. Every time you release a patch, it's a confession that the product you've been paid for isn't working.
This has nothing to do with the town screens. But if you're going to enter a debate and say that somebody doesn't know anything, then please give some real data, or else what you're doing is hurling slime.
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Cleo
Hired Hero
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posted July 25, 2011 09:04 PM |
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Edited by Cleo at 21:09, 25 Jul 2011.
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Quote:
Well, Cleo, if you were one of the decision-makers faced with 600 potential buyers who are in doubt whether or not to purchase your product based on one design move, against 70 customers who vote "I do not care" and will buy it one way or the other, tell me, what would you deem to be the wise course of action? I am very interested in hearing your answer.
I think you people, as obviously hardcore as most of you seem, will still buy the game regardless of town screens. Nitpick all you want, petition all you want, but you'd probably still pick the game up and you know it. Know why? Because it doesn't really matter in the end. This game's still Heroes of Might and Magic, and the turn-based strategy, the adventure map, it remains largely unchanged.
I'm very interested to hear you refute me saying I WONT BUY THIS GAME BECAUSE IT DOESN'T HAVE 5 TOWN SCREENS I WANTED IN! You're all hilarious, I can't wait till this game is released with the same town screens and you all pick up copies and play me online, and you know what? It'll be like this petition never happened, it'll be like you never cared.
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Warmonger
Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
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posted July 25, 2011 09:07 PM |
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Quote:
I WONT BUY THIS GAME BECAUSE IT DOESN'T HAVE 5 TOWN SCREENS I WANTED IN!
It doesn't have 6 or 8 town screens either.
We need to demand quality loud, or else developers will spam us with even more half-products.
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The future of Heroes 3 is here!
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Cleo
Hired Hero
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posted July 25, 2011 09:09 PM |
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Edited by Cleo at 21:10, 25 Jul 2011.
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Quote:
Quote:
I WONT BUY THIS GAME BECAUSE IT DOESN'T HAVE 5 TOWN SCREENS I WANTED IN!
It doesn't have 6 or 8 town screens either.
We need to demand quality loud, or else developers will spam us with even more half-products.
LOL, oh town screens are 50% of the game, huh!? You spent 50% of your time in-town during a match? I'm skeptical you ever completed a game.
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Warmonger
Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
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posted July 25, 2011 09:17 PM |
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I've spent last two years recreating Heroes of Might and Magic 3, the very best strategy game ever, from scratch. What did you ever do for this game? Who are you to judge me and dozens of other long-time fans around here?
We want the game to use its huge potential in the possible way, not just appreciate everything that has heroes and big magic swords in it. They took iconic town screens away, giving nothing in return.
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The future of Heroes 3 is here!
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Cleo
Hired Hero
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posted July 25, 2011 09:20 PM |
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Edited by Cleo at 21:21, 25 Jul 2011.
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Public forum, I'm a fan, get used to hearing different people's opinions, kinda what it's for, mate.
Town screens are not 50% of Heroes was what I was saying.
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Aosaw
Promising
Famous Hero
Author of Nonreal Fiction
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posted July 25, 2011 09:20 PM |
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Edited by Aosaw at 21:22, 25 Jul 2011.
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I call troll. There's a difference between voicing your opinion, and antagonizing people incessantly by belittling their opinions. You've stated already that you don't care about this issue. So why don't you just stay out of it, so that those of us who do care can get their voices heard?
In all honesty, Cleo, I probably won't buy the game. I can't speak for everyone else, but I don't have enough liquid income that I can just buy every game that I want. I have to prioritize. And right now there are four games I want, and I can only afford to get maybe three of them. I'm going to have to make the decision to not buy one of those four games; and you know what?
Heroes 6 won't be one of them. Because if I'm going to eliminate one of those other games for H6, it has to be everything I want out of a Heroes game.
So, no, Cleo, I'm not a hypocrite. I won't be buying this game unless there are town screens. Because the town screen is representative of what I want out of the game; if that iconic feature is absent, the game itself loses its appeal, and so you can bet your britches I won't be shelling out sixty clams for a game that's subpar.
But until then, I'm sure as hell going to be making a stink about it. Because I would much rather buy the Heroes game I want (with town screens and a combat spellbook that actually looks like a spellbook) than one of those other three.
So you can take your comic book villain's monologue and shove it where the moon don't glow, thank you very much.
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yasmiel
Supreme Hero
Former Chessmaster
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posted July 25, 2011 09:22 PM |
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Edited by yasmiel at 21:24, 25 Jul 2011.
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Once upon a time i had 3 games on my table.
Age of Wonders
Disciples 1 Gold
Heroes 3
All 3 similar games from what i read upfront.
Due to sole fact that the latter 2 had decent looking town screens I'm now proud owner of every Disciples and Heroes sequel, while i never passed 3 levels in Age of Wonders and ended selling it. The game might have been great and probably is, but without that immersion factor i couldn't force myself to play it.
This is not a claim that either is a bad or good game, but to illustrate the decision process in people that like that artistic/immersion factor. You do not seem to be one of them which is ok, but not acknowledging their impact is silly at best.
Trust me, this will ultimately be a bad long term decision. It is a video game more than e-sport at this time. Most of its consumers regard it as such.
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Cleo
Hired Hero
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posted July 25, 2011 09:23 PM |
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If I'm a troll then you are as well, for I'm doing nothing different than expressing my views on the topic as well.
Simply because I disagree with the majority of rabid fanboys doesn't make me a troll, LOL.
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yasmiel
Supreme Hero
Former Chessmaster
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posted July 25, 2011 09:26 PM |
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Your opinion is fine. Would be a boring world if everyone had the same.
It is you that has trouble valuating others opinions 
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Cleo
Hired Hero
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posted July 25, 2011 09:33 PM |
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That may be true, but for the most part this thread has extremely biased opinions based on fandom, not general opinions on what matters in a game. 
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted July 25, 2011 09:34 PM |
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Yes, indeed I know that I will probably be buying the game one way or the other, whether because it's good or if only to support certain members of the development team who I consider friends. So you miss my point. But I think it's ridiculously arrogant to suggest that those opposed to the town screens are nothing but rabid Heroes III fanboys. I am even quite happy to see the (statistically) minority opinion voiced, but I ask you to please do the basic research if making broad generalisations.
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LOL, oh town screens are 50% of the game, huh!? You spent 50% of your time in-town during a match? I'm skeptical you ever completed a game.
What a strawman. Nobody says they're 50% of the game. But it's such a glaring fallacy to argue that a feature doesn't contribute to the game just because it doesn't affect the gameplay. Cutscenes and art contribute nothing to the gameplay or the strategy. MS-DOS is still there - you can play on that if you don't value immersion.
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"Those who forget their history are inevitably doomed to repeat it." —Proverb, Might and Magic VIII
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Aosaw
Promising
Famous Hero
Author of Nonreal Fiction
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posted July 25, 2011 09:34 PM |
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No.
What makes you a troll is the way that you voice those opinions. Nightterror does the same exact thing (no offense, Nighty), it's antagonistic, it starts with the assumption that everyone else's opinion is not only false but also morally reprehensible, and it doesn't further the discussion at all.
Some people know how to disagree without provoking an argument. They can point out all the reasons why a town screen isn't as important as some other aspects, or why they think it's more important to focus on other elements of the game (such as that irritatingly small "close" button in the corner of every window), or offer alternatives to the town screen that might work better, or offer insight as to why they might have gone with a town window instead.
What I've heard from you is "You all are still going to buy this game anyway, so stop complaining". I've heard you say "The town screens aren't that great, so stop complaining". I've heard you say, in (as noted before) true comic book villain style, "I look forward to the day when the game is released and you all play me online, and it will be like your little petition never happened."
This is the style of posting that is designed to provoke irritation, and nothing more.
If you've got something to say, Cleo, you find a way to say it that doesn't attack the people with whom you disagree. Otherwise, yes, a troll is exactly what you are. Hiding under a bridge of "free speech" and waiting for people to come looking for you, hoping that they drown in your river.
And the only way to get rid of a troll is with fire or acid. So what do you expect to get in return?
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julle
Adventuring Hero
Simply FABULOUS!
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posted July 25, 2011 09:48 PM |
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Edited by julle at 21:48, 25 Jul 2011.
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Let's take the Master Sword out of Zelda.
Majoras Mask not only removed it, it got replaced with a much cooler sword! (hint: it's pink) it's also the best Zelda.
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Let's take mushrooms out of Super Mario.
Super Mario 64, sunshine, galaxy and galaxy 2. though the galaxy's has mushroom heavy themes and some new, bland mushrooms.
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