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| Thread: OWS and the We Are The 99% movements |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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kodial79
Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
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posted October 05, 2011 05:25 PM |
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Yeah, I did go for the "you make it so simple" argument. I know what you mean but my point is, it's worse than you think.
I, by myself, am quite powerless to affect anything. Even if we gather in the groups of hundreds or thousands, we will be described as demonstrators or protesters and be written off just like that.
If our demonstrations turns to rioting, they will put us down and in the eyes of the rest of the society, what little right did we have, we lost it.
So what else is there to do?
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Signature? I don't need no stinking signature!
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OmegaDestroyer
Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
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posted October 05, 2011 05:59 PM |
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We can live beside the ocean
Leave the fire behind
Swim out past the breakers
Watch the world die
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The giant has awakened
You drink my blood and drown
Wrath and raving I will not stop
You'll never take me down
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 05, 2011 06:01 PM |
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Edited by Fauch at 18:05, 05 Oct 2011.
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yeah, I doubt anyone can run for president. I guess that one of the conditions is that your program fit the agenda of some people?
and yeah, about changing the economic system, little chance. what has been the most significant change? when states started borrowing money from private banks instead of creating it themselves?
I read that in ancient rome (I think it was rome), those bankers would have just been condemned to death, it was criminal to apply interest rates.
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TheBaron
Promising
Known Hero
dreamer of dreams
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posted October 05, 2011 06:02 PM |
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Edited by TheBaron at 18:08, 05 Oct 2011.
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I am not fond of conspiracy theories, however I do believe that it is easy to be demotivated by that feeling of insignificance.
As far as I could tell it was the auto-immolation of a single man in Egypt that sparked its revolution. The majority of the revolution was carried out peacefully by occupying Tahrir Square.
Hugo Weaving as the enigmatic 'V' actually made an interesting speech about civil unease in V for Vendetta which had a similar effect upon the fictional Londeners after a little girl was killed.
Unlike these two examples the OWS movement hasn't been initiated with violence, and I think that is not at all a bad thing. The (protesting) US does not want an interim military government, it wants major political and economic reform that emerges from debate. Everyone has been feeling impotent against the power of the status quo, but the people of other nations who have faced much more (openly) dangerous opposition have managed to band together to achieve something.
Our (assuming we're middle-class white people) struggle is to overcome the apathy and complacence that has enabled the system to runaway as it has. If I can take a train down to [Fed Square in Melbourne], sit down and engage in a political debate for my, my children's and my fellow countrymen's sake, then I can't really see why I shouldn't.
It's even harder for us to justify such action here in Australia, because everyone seems to be a have, although being a teacher of disadvantaged kids allows me to know better. Honestly though, there has to be a time where everyone does come together to say that we need to seriously invest in projects that will benefit humankind; such as sustainable energy, population debate, agri/aquacultural reform, financial reform, health care, etc.
Maybe I am personally overreaching, but I think that people in general are really starting to become disillusioned by the way that governments are, by and large, run. The arguments should have equal weight to people from both the left and the right: Governments should take the interests of their constituency first, and not their corporate sponsors; governments should obey their constitutions and the rule of law; governments should be thinking of the best ways they can serve their state, not how the state can serve them. I may be way out of line here, but I think this has become an issue for virtually every nation.
EDIT: It's funny because I'm an aristocrat 
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"My favorite" - Jean-
Baptiste Emmanuel Zorg.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 05, 2011 06:09 PM |
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power corrupts. absolute power corrupts absolutely.
do we really need people to take decisions on such a large scale? it may make sense for some very specific questions though.
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TheBaron
Promising
Known Hero
dreamer of dreams
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posted October 05, 2011 06:16 PM |
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Edited by TheBaron at 18:17, 05 Oct 2011.
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I believe it's actually better to keep it broad, because I think it reflects the general dissatisfaction we have with the system. If enough people could be engaged, then perhaps there could be a real shift in political behaviour. Look at Ron Paul, a politician who seems to be hated by his own party and the media that supports them, but who is also rocketing to prominence because of his no-BS line. The more people kick up a stink, the more that politicians will need to shift towards what we desire. Hopefully we can reclaim the concept of a great leader, one we haven't had since... Lincoln? Allende? Lenin? Roosevelt or Franklin? Whitlam? Whoever - people who stood for something, and seemed to listen to their people and their hearts... as well as their significant intellects!
EDIT: I'm getting ranty here, anyway else have an opinion on these events?
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"My favorite" - Jean-
Baptiste Emmanuel Zorg.
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted October 05, 2011 07:16 PM |
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Well good luck to them. 
Fate has a funny way of keeping its end of the bargain .
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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Shyranis
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted October 05, 2011 07:33 PM |
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Here's the effect of the Arab Spring so far:
About Occupy wall Street:
Uniformed Marine Veterans will be taking part in and protecting protesters.
The Transit union is complaining that having their buses commandeered by the police for use as prison transport is a breach of contract.
Apparently there is some confusion where only a handful of people were warned they would be arrested on the Brooklyn bridge, so the vast majority of 700 people arrested at once believed they were trapped.
Very interesting development.
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Please express why it should be reinstated on
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted October 05, 2011 07:33 PM |
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I don't believe there's a strong parallel between the Arab Spring and the discontent with many of the monetary institutions. The Arab nations are uprising against their dictatorship governments, which are all continuations of the post-Ottoman puppet regimes. In that kind of setting, there isn't always a reasonable method of reforming policy short of forcing it through a revolution... at least if you plan on making changes at a rate faster than a snail's pace.
The world has grown more cynical in recent years and some think that there also doesn't exist any reasonable method of reforming policy in places like the US either. It's a myth bred from blind frustration. As far as the US is concerned, I know for a fact that there are politicians in the two major parties, as well as from fringe parties, that are in support of some pretty strong reform, and it's not like there doesn't exist an established legal method of making those changes. But here's the catch: the constituency doesn't adequately back those ideas. The Arab Spring is an overwhelming majority overthrowing a person or group of people that refuse to give up their power. This business with people being angry with certain monetary policies, or any other policy, is just a matter of them more or less getting the government that they asked for as a result of short-term thinking. "You get the government you deserve".
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted October 05, 2011 07:53 PM |
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Quote:
The world has grown more cynical in recent years and some think that there also doesn't exist any reasonable method of reforming policy in places like the US either. It's a myth bred from blind frustration.
Indeed. A shoot down at sunset is usually a proper way to settle such a duel matters.
Edit: Why oh why do I keep mixing sunset with sunrise? No wonder I am always late for my schedule
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kodial79
Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
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posted October 05, 2011 07:54 PM |
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So you mean to say that if they did not like them, then they should not have voted for them?
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Signature? I don't need no stinking signature!
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted October 05, 2011 07:56 PM |
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when a guy becomes president with 40% of votes you gotta think to yerself wether or not this is the way to roll
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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kodial79
Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
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posted October 05, 2011 08:05 PM |
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40% of the votes may still be the majority when there are more options than two. But even so, this 40% is counted only among the voters. What if you count in that percentage the whole population with a right to vote even if they did not vote? Then percentage of the voters who put the new president into office, will be an even lower and perhaps not the majority either.
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Signature? I don't need no stinking signature!
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted October 05, 2011 08:08 PM |
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Regardless of the amount of parties, the core fact is that 60% voted for something else, I would much rather invest in a better voting system rather then the snow they use it for at the moment  .
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted October 05, 2011 08:09 PM |
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Quote:
So you mean to say that if they did not like them, then they should not have voted for them?
More or less. Until I see a cohesive movement become the new plurality, I'm just going to roll my eyes at these notions of oppression.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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kodial79
Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
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posted October 05, 2011 08:24 PM |
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Edited by kodial79 at 20:25, 05 Oct 2011.
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You're American, right?
Well, in a big country such as yours, there's such diversity in the society and culture that I don't think it's impossible for some classes and groups of people to be oppressed.
Maybe the protesters don't belong in this groups of people, but they represent them with their actions too. And really now, just look at what's happening in the world. Are you not worried? I think it's more about that, people realizing where this system is leading us and want to act before it's too late.
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Signature? I don't need no stinking signature!
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 05, 2011 08:51 PM |
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Quote:
If enough people could be engaged, then perhaps there could be a real shift in political behaviour. Look at Ron Paul, a politician who seems to be hated by his own party and the media that supports them, but who is also rocketing to prominence because of his no-BS line. The more people kick up a stink, the more that politicians will need to shift towards what we desire.
and why try to force politicians to change their system? are we dependant on them? there is an easier way, civil disobedience, just don't give a snow about what they say. after all, the only reason why they can enforce a system on us is because we choose to support that system. to quote La Boetie :
Quote:
He who thus domineers over you has only two eyes, only two hands, only one body, no more than is possessed by the least man among the infinite numbers dwelling in your cities; he has indeed nothing more than the power that you confer upon him to destroy you. Where has he acquired enough eyes to spy upon you, if you do not provide them yourselves? How can he have so many arms to beat you with, if he does not borrow them from you? The feet that trample down your cities, where does he get them if they are not your own? How does he have any power over you except through you?
so? why do you want to force that guy to change his mind, when he really has no power?
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted October 05, 2011 09:36 PM |
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Why do I think it's stupid?
Because the vast majority of Americans just aren't that unhappy with their lives, for one thing. They grumble a lot about this and that petty annoyance, but in the end things just aren't anywhere CLOSE to bad enough for anyone to really want to overthrow a system that, for all its inefficiency, actually does work pretty damn well. And in truth, the reason it DOES work so well is at least in part due to the very inefficiency that people love to grumble about. Look at the average American and then tell me we really have anything to be snowing about?
And because the vast majority of the people who are out protesting on Wall Street don't even really seem to know what they're protesting about. There's certainly no unity, no singular message. In my mind, they're just young idealogues who don't feel happy unless they're protesting about something. Young idealogues who haven't learned that there's the way things would work in a perfect world, and the way things actually DO work, and will ALWAYS work, in this world. I mean seriously - you are protesting about corporate greed? You've got to be ****ing kidding me. Don't you have anything better to do with your time? Do these people even understand what a corporation is? Or how society functions? They might as well be protesting about the fact that humans get old and die... or the fact that gravity causes things to fall downwards.
Everytime I see these people, I just roll my eyes at the uselessness of it. I'm all for doing what you can to change things, but you have to have a well defined, and - more importantly - realistic goal. And, better, a well defined and realistic way of effecting the change you're after. Otherwise, you just come across looking and sounding like a half-brained, naive nutjob. A nutjob who hasn't quite figured out how to navigate his way out of his parents' basement yet because he spends all his time railing at the injustice of having to climb a few stairs.
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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted October 05, 2011 09:43 PM |
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Quote:
Look at the average American and then tell me we really have anything to be snowing about?
Yes! You lack healthcare!!!
Quote:
They might as well be protesting about the fact that humans get old and die...
We should definitely make said protests group! I'd certainly join, could be fun.
NO MORE DEATH! NO MORE DEATH!
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted October 05, 2011 10:32 PM |
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I am really glad veteran soldiers are joining the protests, to protect the protesters.
Why am I glad? Because the US police is a disaster example of criminal authority, with some abusing their power and others faking their testimonies to protect them.
What will happen is that the protesters will be cam cording, and the marines will be looking at the police. If the police attempts to kick start a riot the marines will take action, and there will be hard video evidence to take to court about it.
Another issue is that the marines are breastfeed with companionship: If one of their fellow brothers in arms is attempted to be taken away for something that is not a crime, it will stop right there.
If one of the marines is randomly missing and found dead, the police will be attempted to be lynched if there is a minor track of evidence.
And I find this a good thing:
A country with the black community not even batting a eyelash on the rodney king event, it is sorely needed that something is done with the police violence.
The other issue is that pointing out that the economy is just another pyramid scheme is something more people should be aware of.
Whoever is earning a lot of money, has to get it somewhere, and in the end all economies backbone is its lower classes.
And considering how much of a scam the economy generally is: Nothing is wrong with demanding all the money back to the people who buildt everything and is keeping everything running.
And I guess I should elaborate, to avoid confusion:
Any person has to spend a certain amount of time or resource to stay alive. That means aquirering shelter, food, medcine, etc....
In a "civilized" society, you usually spend time working at some job to aquire money, and use that money as resource in order to stay alive:
*You either buy or rent a house or appartment(which must be mantained)
*You must buy food
*You must buy cloths
*You must buy medicine or sanitation
*And you must mantain some way of getting around in society(bike, car, jogging shoes, collective transport such as busses or trains)
The cost of this is fixed, and a normal plebian spends roughly his or her entire budget on this, with a small buffer on the sideline. Perhaps 200-300€ as a "emergency savings"(back buffer), then again its adjusted by inflation and the cost of living.
So when the buffer is full, you save some more, and then buy some commodities. For example more expensive cloths, a more expensive jacket, tires for your car, gas, upgrading your computer, acquiring a new laptop, buying jewelry, buying stuff for your house or apartment, and the list goes on.
If you have a debt of some sort, it will take longer for the back buffer to fill.
If its cheap to live, it will fill up a lot faster.
But lets be honest here: Unless you save everything, it will never amount to everything: You will spend everything at some point.
The only exception are if you have gotten old, payed of your house, and then suddenly have a lot of money saved up. Then again: Its "a lot of money" for a plebeian, a consumer, but its not a lot of money. It will perhaps do for starting a small corporation, or fix some major damage on the house if you are too impatient to wait for insurance, but other than that its sort of not a lot of money.
And then there is also supplement info that is has nothing to do with this, but its nice to know: The cost of living is only a fixed range, once you are rich, it stops increasing. And that means every dollar earned is not a surplus instead of a medium term potential spending.
After enough time, the person will sit on a heap on money, and must either save it in a bank or invest it. That, or he or she will in the end sit on a pile of money large enough to slow down the economy.
But this part of the elaboration is heading towards the direction of explaining why tax should be non-linear, and how the banking system works, or how the "speed of the economy" affects how much a amount of currency is worth.
But lets get back to the relevant part:
A consumer WILL spend EVERYTHING, while a person who has managed to aquire a really large income will not spend everything.
So who is paying for keeping the economy afloat and at proper velocity? The consumer.
What happens when enough people does not have a job? The economy starts collapsing due lack of velocity.
What does that mean? It means that the people who is earning money on the consumers get less money, and they buy less amount of items from the supplies.
The suppliers either get less, or collapse at the spot, and the entire economy inevitably just collapses over a few short months.
Ok, its not collapsing, but rather slowing down to the point where investing does not result in a net gain.
So basically nobody is investing because the economy is too slow, and nobody is getting hired because there is nobody investing and making new jobs. A long and sad chicken and the egg situation, which will recover up to normal velocity at.... 10-20 years if left alone.
But what can be done to fix that? You must either force every investor into starting to spend money(velocity would be restored over night), or you can start large projects in attempt to speed up the recovery(building large amounts of infrastructure, jobs for the plebeians).
Which ends in propaganda for the Keynesian model of "government spending", or alternatively the model of "Big government and large projects".
And for the historic note: The Keynesian
But lets get back to "we are losing our jobs because they stopped investing", which is why there is a sensible reason to protest in the first place.
First off:
Investors are allowed to do gamble normal peoples money, and hence creating a economy collapse, and where are the investors centralized? Wall street.
Secondly:
Who was saved by the packages meant to save the economy?
Not the common folk who is keeping everything afloat, but the CEOs and corporate stock boards who only leech money.
Instead of being sent to trial, fined and sent to jail for collapsing the economy, they are awarded with money they end up refusing to spend.
What does that mean? There is a sensible reason to protest. Nothing more and nothing less.
If this had involved a town council, heads would have been sent towards whatever is deemed as a valid replacement of a Guillotine.
It is only fair to demand justice.
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