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| Thread: OWS and the We Are The 99% movements |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted October 05, 2011 10:46 PM |
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There is so much bad information and so many bad assumptions in that post that I wouldn't even know where to start.
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted October 05, 2011 11:38 PM |
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Then start somwhere.
"Your wrong" btw.
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted October 05, 2011 11:49 PM |
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Quote:
You're American, right?
Well, in a big country such as yours, there's such diversity in the society and culture that I don't think it's impossible for some classes and groups of people to be oppressed.
Maybe the protesters don't belong in this groups of people, but they represent them with their actions too. And really now, just look at what's happening in the world. Are you not worried? I think it's more about that, people realizing where this system is leading us and want to act before it's too late.
What part of the system? Do they disagree with bail outs? With certain spending bills? With tax rates? With price setting? Are they protesting about a whole set of things?
I know, the world as we know it is on the verge of a complete collapse. It's been on the verge of a complete collapse for 100,000 consecutive years, ever since the invention of gossiping 
If they want to demonstrate that's fine. There have been successful demonstrations before, and thus far I don't consider this one of them. I'm not sure what exactly they're demonstrating. All in all, I should be happy the worst thing that's happened so far is a traffic jam, but I still say it's inferior to a voting ballot, or if you're really gung-ho and/or bored, joining an organization that advocates your views.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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TheBaron
Promising
Known Hero
dreamer of dreams
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posted October 06, 2011 12:24 AM |
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Blizz, I have to say it sounds like you haven't been paying attention when you say that the protesters are just protesting for the sake of protesting. Perhaps just reading through some of the articles after searching 'occupy wall st news' will give some more insight on to what people are saying. Some of them have been extremely eloquent, this guy does a pretty good job.
There is a chimerical problem that does not call for a single demand, but for a larger debate about the fundamental structure of how things are working now.
@Corribus, I think it's a bit cynical of you to have such a response, to me it smacks of a feeling of powerlessness. I also feel that you may be wrong about 'the vast majority of Americans being comfortable'. You can take a look at all the statistics you want about your people's welfare, and it's really not that good.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted October 06, 2011 01:36 AM |
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Funny how contentment is so easily misunderstood to be powerlessness.
Seriously, though, look at their "demands" (or at least, the demands of one of them) and tell me they aren't naive, not to mention completely lacking in any understanding of how the economy works.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/proposed-list-of-demands-for-occupy-wall-st-moveme/
Are they serious?
Let's take just one of them.
Demand four: Free college education.
Great idea. Wouldn't that be nice? Who's going to pay for it? I know, maybe if enough deadbeat twenty-somethings go and make a shanty-town out of Wall Street, the leaders and Washington will pass a law that suddenly makes all private universities public AND free! What do you think the odds are of that happening?
And you think mocking such idiocy makes me a cynic? 
Regarding Americans being comfortable - have you been to America? Not exactly the land of the downtrodden. In any case, what statistics are you referring to?
Remember the phrase popularized by Mark Twain: "There are only three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."
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TheBaron
Promising
Known Hero
dreamer of dreams
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posted October 06, 2011 02:00 AM |
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Edited by TheBaron at 03:27, 06 Oct 2011.
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Education used to be free in Australia until recently, even so, the burden of your Higher Education Scheme (HECS) debt is minimal and interest free, and only needs to be repaid if you earn over a certain amount of money. Even then it is only 2% of your income, and the government will double any extra repayments you make. We may be an extremely professional country, but at least we don't crush our students with the burden of their schooling... at least through debt anyway.
I'm not saying the USA is the land of the downtrodden, but I think it's not exactly the 'Land of the Free' that it touts. I just find the stories that are on the We are the 99% site unbelievable, those kinds of stories just shouldn't exist, and I am thankful that they don't in my country - at least not among the middle class. Our problems are more tied to race relations and resources.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted October 06, 2011 03:09 AM |
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Do you have any knowledge about how student loans and scholarships work here in the US, or are you just working through assumption and conjecture?
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TheBaron
Promising
Known Hero
dreamer of dreams
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posted October 06, 2011 03:28 AM |
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Edited by TheBaron at 04:19, 06 Oct 2011.
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I am operating on assumption and conjecture, would you care to enlighten me? 
EDIT: Here is a little bit more press on the goals of these people. It seems to be building all the time. Why not support a grass-roots movement aimed at the betterment of (y)our civilization. If you don't like the way it's headed, why not contribute in a productive way. I suppose time will tell on its effectiveness, but surely the less people sit on the sidelines the more effective it will be.
I do not claim an intimate knowledge of economics or politics, however I can see that there is a problem endemic to our types of government and economy. I support anything that desires to increase accountability and corporate regulation.
Most people didn't hate Mubarak in Egypt, in fact, everyone I spoke to liked him - from taxi drivers to farmers to touts to academics. What they didn't like was the fact that they were poor and that there was no transparency in their country. That the Suez canal should have been providing the majority, not disappearing into the pockets of the 1% - a parallel problem to the many the OWS people are talking about.
The 30 years of a single dictator was incidental to them. As democratic peoples, we tend to think they were sick of one bloke in power, but that's not true - Anwar Al-Sadat was 'The Hero of War and Peace' and was a dictator for almost 10 years before he was assassinated... he probably would have enjoyed many more had he not been - their problem was that they were oppressed. So, I'm just not convinced that we're not being oppressed under the guise of freedom, and that Goethe quote I posted earlier nicely illustrates my opinion on this; for us it's a self-suppression, 1984 style.
A pithy one-liner for 'what we want' seems inappropriate when the issue is multi-faceted and highly complex.
Here are some interesting statistics from the US census bureau... almost 50 million people in the US are living below the poverty line!
...Australia is not much better by percentage.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 06, 2011 05:55 AM |
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Corporatism is a real problem, but these Occupy Wall Street people seem to be unable to distinguish between it and capitalism. Look at their anti-market rhetoric and opposition to globalization. Opposition to free trade is to economics what creationism is to biology.
These people want to abolish credit rating agencies? Seriously?
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Eccentric Opinion
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kodial79
Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
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posted October 06, 2011 08:33 AM |
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@blizz: I don't know how things work there and I really have no clue what they are protesting about. It's just a rationale that I came up with on the the spot that in such a big country USA, injustice in some form or another and therefore people protesting about it to undo it, can't be a so far out scenario.
To tell you the truth, I don't consider them serious either. This anonymous guys, remind me too much of 4chan, and makes me think that the most of the people there, are going for the LULZ.
True, our system was hanging from a thread since the moment it was created. But now more than ever, there's this general feeling all over the world, that it's going to fall.
Too many protests lately, too many riots, revolutions, armed conflicts, call them what you will. Big shot political figures appear in the media scared stupid. Threats of an economic devastation that can affect the entire world, so they say, and a war brewing between two rabid dogs that would sooner bite than bark.
To me, it feels like that they tried to pull something nasty on us but it got out of their control. That's me being an optimist!
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Signature? I don't need no stinking signature!
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 06, 2011 09:57 AM |
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Quote:
But lets get back to the relevant part:
A consumer WILL spend EVERYTHING, while a person who has managed to aquire a really large income will not spend everything.
So who is paying for keeping the economy afloat and at proper velocity? The consumer.
What happens when enough people does not have a job? The economy starts collapsing due lack of velocity
I'm really wondering why the only concern seems to always be to keep economy running? what is economy? movements of money? does money moving around feed people? obviously no. if that's the only thing people do, no one is ever going to eat.
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Brukernavn
Hero of Order
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posted October 06, 2011 11:09 AM |
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These people want to abolish credit rating agencies? Seriously?
I agree with you, but the credit rating agencies aren't exactly doing a good job. After all, they were the ones that gave AAA ratings to many of the big companies that went bankrupt in '08.
The idea of keeping "the economy running", or "stimulating the economy" is classical Keynesian theory. They have failed to predict any of the bubbles in recent history, while Austrian economists have predicted them all with frightening accuracy. The Austrian economists are the ones warning about a monetary crisis down the road of the FED continues to print money out of thin air.
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted October 06, 2011 11:42 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
But lets get back to the relevant part:
A consumer WILL spend EVERYTHING, while a person who has managed to aquire a really large income will not spend everything.
So who is paying for keeping the economy afloat and at proper velocity? The consumer.
What happens when enough people does not have a job? The economy starts collapsing due lack of velocity
I'm really wondering why the only concern seems to always be to keep economy running? what is economy? movements of money? does money moving around feed people? obviously no. if that's the only thing people do, no one is ever going to eat.
Well, its one of those things about economics that gives away how much of a metagame it is. Its only really a issue from a economic viewpoint.
Besides: Its only a issue because we have such a large amount of the economy reallying on the consumers being a accelerating backbone in the first place.
Example:
All that is needed to done in order to counter a economic collapse is to simply just get enough people to ignore it. If 60-70% of the economy ignores it, it will recover in a very short time.
Its just a silly zero sum game.
Brukernavn: Thats odd, because the Austrian school only stands for "give the marked tax breaks and let them collapse on themselves".
And considering how the Austrian school has ruled the US economy for the last 70 years, its fairly easy to spot which school is standing for the collapse of the economy.
The Austrian school is nothing but a new plastic wrap around the Neo Classistic "Lazze faire", which is a broken concept.
And lets not forget what the Keynesian school stands for:
The marked WILL collapse if left unattended, and it will use 10-20 years to recover, so the goverment HAS to stop in and make sure it does not collapse in the first place.
Sounds to me like somebody had predicted all the financial crisis all along.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted October 06, 2011 12:01 PM |
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How do people here at HC feel about this (for lack of a better word) protest? Are you part of the 99%?
It appears to be a Marxist "I am entitled to your money" "movement." It certainly does not have support of 99% of the people. If you want a college education earn it. If you are $100,000 in debt I did not borrow the money, you did. If you want to "do what you love and not be a 'slave to the system'" don't complain that others have more money than you do--making mud pies won't earn you much money.
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Revelation
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted October 06, 2011 12:05 PM |
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Quote:
I'm really wondering why the only concern seems to always be to keep economy running? what is economy? movements of money? does money moving around feed people? obviously no. if that's the only thing people do, no one is ever going to eat
Fauch I'm going to take a scientific approach to answering this; the system relies on the make-belief that money is "energy" (energy because there is a limited amount in the system) and is "worth" something, this is false since the paper in your pocket is nothing more then a lousy promise from the banks that it's worth something (read the small print on any bank note I.E a dollar or a 5 pound note).
Seriously people I feel like I'm playing a board game where a moron thinks the green stuff is actually worth something & were supposed to build a fair world with this idiotic currency system? I honestly believe there's some ****off who is just laughing his *** off at how blind people are and reaping the real rewards, and money ain't a reward to these people, your free labour is.
Atleast gold & silver were shiny  .
If anything, we should be valuing things via their energy costs, and hell what do you get, a fair ****ing currency system. (To clarify, human energy costs).
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted October 06, 2011 12:15 PM |
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Things are already valued by their energy cost. That's why ordering something from the opposite side of the world costs more than ordering something identical from your next door neighbor. That's why a jet costs more than a scooter. A product will gradually become more expensive as it requires greater investment in raw materials, labor, and/or transportation, in order for the vendor to be bothered selling it at all. You can go back to relying strictly on bartering if you really want, but otherwise some sort of monetary unit needs to be used to represent the value of products or services.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted October 06, 2011 12:21 PM |
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Aye people have a natural nature the value things that require more work then that which doesn't, but that still leaves the fact that this is nowhere near at an acceptable rate, I.E lthere are alot of products, contructions, vehicles; et cetera that do not abide by this rule.
The thing that I suggested would correspond with natures laws rather then the illusion that we are fed by man.
Also I was ever confused by the banking system, can someone point out what stops them from printing as much money as they want?
Inflation would be the result if people found out, but how would they is what I'm asking, or are we all just praying that they're playing by the rules ?
Over-all it is only slightly revelant to my point, I'm just curious
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted October 06, 2011 12:29 PM |
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Quote:
That's why ordering something from the opposite side of the world costs more than ordering something identical from your next door neighbor.
On a side note, ordering stephen king novels from the UK is cheaper than buying them here.
Though, really, the value of money is something that is mutually agreed upon and makes things much more efficient. We could all become turnip farmers again, but that way we go back at least 2500 years and become a disappointment to our crotchety old and dead ancestors.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted October 06, 2011 12:42 PM |
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If you want a college education earn it. If you are $100,000 in debt I did not borrow the money, you did.
I am not sure that in the long run this may be productive. It appears that uneducated people cost more to the society than educated ones. By making college free and even obligatory, probably a bigger percentage of those people will be productive and help the economy in the long run.
I don't know about USA, but in Europe, not having a job or the skills for one earns you automatically free aid, which is sucked from people who work. If you destroy this system, it is equivalent to put those people to starving death. If you had to borrow $100,000 in order to pay your college education, there is a death circle, as before being productive you have to pay your loans.
In the actual economy pattern, we see that the differences between rich and poor classes become more and more accentuated, with every year passing by. Sticking to the actual model without questioning for a better solution is suicidal.
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Era II mods and utilities
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted October 06, 2011 12:49 PM |
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Quote:
On a side note, ordering stephen king novels from the UK is cheaper than buying them here.
Well of course, there's other things that can factor into the price, such as the quantity of products being shipped to X location (shipping them in bulk will likely mean they sell for less, but it does mean you sell more of them), and then there's any taxes that might get thrown on top.
Injecting the system with excess money can create a temporary jumpstart, but then the market adjusts and prices go up. It's not that gas or food is suddenly more valuable than it was a week ago, it's simply that your money is worth less. Pumping bills into the economy isn't going to make products magically produce faster, or take up less materials, or allow people to get more work done faster, so the demands are going to remain the same, and since there's more cotton floating around, everyone is going to ask for more of it.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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