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Storm-Giant
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posted October 31, 2013 01:02 PM |
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Stevie said:
Storm-Giant said:
As always, we need more than 7 slots creatures (in a single alignment)!!
Fixed it for ya. Don't mention it. 
Ooops xD
DoubleDeck said:
Don't leave out Rakshasa's!
Yup, those guys rule
moonshade said:
I think the Titan should be a Boss creature
I disagree. Titan should be the champion unit if anything, just like Black Shades of Purple Dragon of Dungeon.
Titans are the kind of creature that should be difficult to attain, but not impossible. The fill the gap of Champion perfectly imo.
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War-overlord
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posted October 31, 2013 01:22 PM |
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MattII said:
Elvin said:
For teh lulz. I know that beastmen are an academy thing but no hippos pls 
I actually think the hippo-warrior could be an interesting unit with some rather unique abilities. Not so sure about the other units though, 6 constructs, 6 djinn and 4 mages, seems a bit monotonous.
I would agree with this.
I know many people are tired of beastmen, because many creatures are beastmen now. But this Taweret looks cool and creative and tanky.
More on this later. And another of my opinion-pieces on Dragons.
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War-overlord
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posted October 31, 2013 07:52 PM |
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On the Divine Nature of Dragons
So, by now, I am certain that you all are aware that the Gods of Ashan are Dragons. And as much as some of us may dislike this, for as long as Ashan is the world where M&M is set, this will be the case.
Now the Lore states that ever since the Wars of Creation have been concluded, the Gods have been voluntarily exiled to the Spirit Realm. The Gods cannot manifest themselves anymore in the Physical Realm, due to this exile.
However, there are still Dragons in the Physical Realm, the "lesser" Dragons and I will be speaking of them from here on out unless specified otherwise. These are the Dragons of Ashan. The problem with them lies here. What in the name of the 9 Circles of Hell are they? Because that explaination is a great big mess.
Most commonly, Dragons are referred to as the Avatars of the Gods. This is problematic, for Avatars are the Physical Manifestations of Gods. Remember, Ashan Gods are not and cannot be present in the Physical Realm anymore. So this is a bad choice of words, at best, or otherwise contradictory.
Otherwise, Dragons are referred to as the Children of the Gods. Again, this is problematic. Because that's a cute way of putting things, but it does not make clear what Dragons are. They cannot be Gods, because Gods are only 8 in number. And there are many more dragons. Are they Demigods then? Unlikely, for Demigods are one of two things. Either they are lesser Gods, which they cannot be, for there are but 8 Gods. Or they are the offspring of a God and Mortal. Which is unlikely, though it is unclear which came first, the lesser Dragons or the Elder Races, but they are not likely to have to do with one another. Non-the-less, it is apparent that the 6 Elemental Gods are their progenitor of sorts.
Are Dragons Mortals then? Well that seems a nice idea. In the biblical way where Man was created in Gods image. But again, we run into problems. First, if they were just mortals, why are they so much more powerfull than other mortals, or said to be so? Not only this, but Ubisoft has often stated that: "In Ashan, Dragons are not just big winged, fire-breathing lizards." So, not Mortals then.
But they can die. We've killed them by the hordes in the game and Necromancers can even resurrect their corpses. True, they can die. Eh...more or less. See the description of the Dragon-Wraith of H6 states that Dragons exist in both Realms at the same time. And the reason Necromancers could not resurrect Dragons for the first several centuries of their existance, because they did not know this. Untill Belketh discovered that to resurrect a Physical Dragon, you have to enslave it's Spiritual Counterpart. This sets them apart from things like Kirin, Djinn and Hay-Ryu, which are Spirit-beings, which originate from the Spirit Realm, but exist in Either Realm.(Summoning it to the Physical removes it from the Spirit)
So I ask again, rethorically, What in the 9 Circles of Hell are Dragons, Exactly?
Now, this is something problematic for Lore-hounds like me. Even if this is just semantic hairsplitting. And I suspect that this one of the reasons why Ubisoft was intent on not giving us Dragons as Army-units in H6. But then came the Expansion and they caved. (Rightly so, as a Dungeon without a Black Dragon, it ain't no Dungeon)
So I ask, please clear this up, Ubisoft. Or make 2 distinct species of Dragons, those of Demigod nature which are all this but of actual Divine Descent. Which somewhat clears this mess up, because they are truly lesser Gods. And make the degenerate Dragons, which the factions can use to make war with. But which are little more than truely mortal Dragons. Powerfull beings, but nontheless abide by the rules of mortals.(lifespan, sickness, death, reproduction etc.) And maybe explain the why of it. The degenerate Dragons being the offspring of Demigod Dragons and Wyverns or somesuch.
Thank you for indulging me on this little nerd-rant.
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Elvin
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posted October 31, 2013 08:50 PM |
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That never particularly troubled me, dragon Gods create things. Arkath created the dwarves, why not fire dragons? And assuming the dragons were their first creation, it makes all the more sense for them to be closer to their image. Sounds reasonable enough to me.
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DoubleDeck
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posted October 31, 2013 09:42 PM |
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@War-overlord: Been reading alot of Dante's Inferno lately? (9 circles of hell )
I like the Elemental dragons, and that's what they are: Dragon gods.
If anything you should go one step higher to Asha herself who's also a Dragon, but Primordial.
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War-overlord
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posted October 31, 2013 09:43 PM |
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Oh, there is little doubt that the Elemental Gods are responsible in one way or another for the "lesser" Dragons.
But I'm not asking: Where do Dragons come from?
I'm rather asking: What is the Nature of "lesser" Dragons and where do they stand in the Order of things?
Perhaps it wasn't clear enough that I am speaking of the lesser Dragons, so I editted the post a bit.
Also, Asha created the Elder Races, for her children to have worshippers and servants.
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Storm-Giant
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posted October 31, 2013 11:02 PM |
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War-overlord said:
Also, Asha created the Elder Races, for her children to have worshippers and servants.
So the Dragon Gods create Dragons to kill other worshippers so they can be #1 
Maybe Elvin could ask this question directly to Ubi?
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DoubleDeck
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posted November 01, 2013 09:04 AM |
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The nature of the "lesser" dragons, is just that. They are dragons and are part of the animal kingdom of Ashan, and these animals can kill each other. Simple!
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War-overlord
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posted November 01, 2013 10:26 AM |
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DoubleDeck said:
The nature of the "lesser" dragons, is just that. They are dragons and are part of the animal kingdom of Ashan, and these animals can kill each other. Simple!
If that was the case, then why does Ubisoft so often stress that they are so much more than that?
On top of that, then why does the Lore make them such incredibly diffucult creatures?
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DoubleDeck
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posted November 01, 2013 10:35 AM |
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Well there is a food chain too so a hierarchy of some order.
eg. Gremlins -> Titans -> Dragons
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War-overlord
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posted November 01, 2013 10:58 AM |
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DoubleDeck said:
Well there is a food chain too so a hierarchy of some order.
eg. Gremlins -> Titans -> Dragons
Oh, I'm not denying that there is a hierarchy of being in Ashan and that the "lesser" Dragons stand at the apex.
But that doesn't explain the messy contradictory lore away.
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MattII
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posted November 01, 2013 11:00 AM |
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Have to say it, for me the whole 'dragon-gods' thing was a major turn-off, it was really just a cheap cop-out that showed how unimaginative Ubisoft really was.
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DoubleDeck
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posted November 01, 2013 12:16 PM |
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I like the Dragon-Gods story and the link to the primordials, etc.
Kind of similar to Tolkien's first tale in Silmarillion with the spirits giving birth to the elder races...etc.
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War-overlord
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posted November 01, 2013 01:07 PM |
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I am a bit ambivalent about the whole Dragon-Gods thing, to be honest.
On the one hand, I like that there is a polytheistic pantheon of Gods that has influence on the events of the continuum.
On the other hand, the only influence Ashan's Gods actually have is to lend magic and visions to their priests. So it is very limited. I'd have preffered it to be more like DragonLance for instance, where the Gods continually manipulate beings in the world to further their own ends and schemes.
As for the Gods being Dragons. I feel it's a bit of a cop-out. For designing Dragons is a whole lot easier than designing something original. But since they cannot be present in the world anyway, it doesn't matter much, since you don't get to see them anyway.
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Stevie
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posted November 01, 2013 01:13 PM |
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Those gods could be transcendental essence beings. No need for a form like the shape of a dragon or anything else. Their manifestation could however be revealed in the form of avatars. I personally dislike the idea of dragon-gods. They're not actually gods if they're dragons..
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted November 01, 2013 07:13 PM |
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I have at least 4 issues with the mythos:
1. The gods are dragons.
2. The gods are elemental.
3. Each god creates exactly one race.
4. Chaos is evil.
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War-overlord
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posted November 01, 2013 07:46 PM |
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MattII said:
I have at least 4 issues with the mythos:
3. Each god creates exactly one race.
That is where you are wrong. As was Elvin a few posts up.
All Elder Races were created by Asha to serve as worshippers and servants to her Children.
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MattII
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posted November 01, 2013 08:10 PM |
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Don't know about the H6 retcons (it there were any), but the H5 timelines states: 'The “Elder” mortal races are created as servants of the Elemental Dragons.'
Regardless, it still counts as exactly one race per god, rather than, say, one god who's content without any followers, an another who owns/creates/whatever two or three different races.
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DoubleDeck
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posted November 04, 2013 09:05 AM |
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Well, it's more like each race worships an element (air, earth, fire, water, light, dark....then asha and urgash directly), hence why they are elemental dragons.
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Dave_Jame
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posted November 04, 2013 10:27 AM |
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Matt can I ask a question?
If you do not know the updated and specified facts, why do you take part in this discussion. It's like talking about a third book in a series when you read only the first one.
And to your qoute
Quote:
Don't know about the H6 retcons (it there were any), but the H5 timelines states: 'The “Elder” mortal races are created as servants of the Elemental Dragons.'
Even whitout any retcons, the phrase "are created as servants" only tells us what was the purpose of the creation of Eldar races. There is no clue or pure statement about who was the creator. We know they were created, and for what reason, not by whom. This has been specified later.
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This thread is pages long: 
