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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted November 04, 2013 01:14 PM |
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Erm, Asha created the Eldar races....and everything else on Ashan...
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted November 04, 2013 03:32 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 15:32, 04 Nov 2013.
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INFERNO
Inferno's core themes are high damage at the cost of defense, powerful destructive spells/abilities, area of effect attacks, good luck and enemy sabotage in general.
Inferno operates under the principle that a good offense is a good defense; It has to make up for its defense indeficiency by delivering powerful attacks and spreading chaos through the opponent's ranks. Their high attack is further complemented by area of effect attacks, strong destructive and a luck boost which of course require good initiative to put to good use. A faction like that cannot afford to be slow, if you cannot seize the initiative to attack first or let the battle drag on then your low defense will soon put you in disadvantage. Gating reinforcements has also proven a worthwhile mechanic that takes advantage of the faction's strengths as well as weaknesses and for this reason I would like it to return. H6 did a number of improvements on it and I hope the trend will continue.
In the last couple of games this faction has had a number of issues. One is the vulnerability to dark magic and necro in general. This was partly fixed in H5 with the introduction of alternative upgrades(ie one horsey reduces morale, the other deals fire dmg) and vampirism as a natural frenzy/puppet counter. In H6 inferno also got dispel and some crowd control protection but balance against necro was never considered. Lilim could not enthral undead, ravagers could not taunt them and pit lords could not frenzy them either. And while I don't mind some natural strengths-weaknesses, inferno got the short end of the stick: Zero strengths against necro, only weaknesses. This should definitely be addressed in the future.
Another issue is their implementation as a faction composed of reddish humanoids. We really need some imagination there, in both form and colour. All factions suffered from that in H6 but none as much as inferno and this is why I am bringing this up.
Duel of champions fortune cards primarily involve discarding the opponent's hand, dealing direct damage to enemy hero, preventing him from drawing cards and as of recently, gating Sheogh reinforcements.
 
 
Discarding could translate into messing with the opponent's mana or the spells he can (re)cast. Abilities like the H5 counterspell or the Zoltan specialty that had a chance to block a spell from enemy spellbook could work nicely here. The might hero could use some tricks like that against potent spellcasters.
Some notable units.
 
Alci considers abyssal lords boring but man, do I like them! They would make one bad@ss champion. Don't really care about abyssal worms though they'd be nice as an inferno unique summon.
 
I wasn't a particular fan of the maniacs so I'd like to see imps back, especially if they have ways to mess with the enemy hero. The chaos seer looks a bit wtf but I like its gameplay direction, that of sabotage.
 
A couple of hellfire units. The former I post mostly because I like its design and the latter because of its gameplay. Not particularly tough but it makes opponents pay for attacking him 
And Ashan's version of the H3 pit fiend Screw maniacs, if we have to give a whip to one unit this should be it! Of course, we'd probably have to remove the juggernauts to include it as they are rather similar. Especially if we also plan to add the abyssal lords.
Most other units are variations of known units with different gameplay so not much of a point to post them.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 04, 2013 03:58 PM |
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Elvin said:
Ok, the way this creature looks is osum. That big muscular body, the horns, the thorns on the body, that blazing fire sword... But... WTF'S WITH THOSE WINGS?! They look like angel feathered wings, rather than bat-like wings, like the imp has for example.
Teleportation is a must for the inferno champion, so H6 did a great job with that (I simply loved the animation when the pit lord did lucky strikes, simply osum!).
Elvin said:
Why do demons have so much chains on them? Like really, do they craft metal objects in sheogh? I don't like that at all.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted November 04, 2013 04:16 PM |
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This particular one brings to mind pinhead ^^ Guess they like cenobite sadomachistic stuff?
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted November 04, 2013 07:23 PM |
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Why are the blind demons observing that cacodemon?
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Valen-Teen
Famous Hero
UFOlolOgist
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posted November 04, 2013 07:29 PM |
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Avirosb said:
Why are the blind demons observing that cacodemon?
It's the cyclops 
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Our hopes for Heroes VIII!
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 04, 2013 07:40 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 19:40, 04 Nov 2013.
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If you want to have a devil than call it a Devil and not something else. A problem I have with H6 Inferno creatures is how they have just made-up creatures such as Maniacs, without any intepretation of RL mythology or folklore. The latter is one of the things that makes HoMM HoMM to me. I want the next Inferno to have interpretations of real-life infernal creatures such as Nephilim, Daeva and Ammit (egyptian devourer of souls).
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted November 04, 2013 08:01 PM |
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I liked that H5 brought in Initiative and ATB bar....with that generally high initiative creatures for Inferno factio, to go with their whole fast attack priority...
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted November 04, 2013 08:26 PM |
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Dave_Jame said:
Matt can I ask a question?
If you do not know the updated and specified facts, why do you take part in this discussion. It's like talking about a third book in a series when you read only the first one.
Of the four points I raised, points 1, 2 and 4 are still true right? Let's face it, Ashan mythology is very drab and simplistic, and that's ignoring the stuff that's not to do with the mythology (like the medieval stasis, and space-filling empire things).
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted November 04, 2013 08:31 PM |
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I have to agree with xerox, H6 lineup lacked a bit on mythological creatures. This isn't necessarily bad but when that happens I expect the new units to be totally awesome as compensation
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted November 04, 2013 09:37 PM |
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MattII said:
Dave_Jame said:
Matt can I ask a question?
If you do not know the updated and specified facts, why do you take part in this discussion. It's like talking about a third book in a series when you read only the first one.
Of the four points I raised, points 1, 2 and 4 are still true right? Let's face it, Ashan mythology is very drab and simplistic, and that's ignoring the stuff that's not to do with the mythology (like the medieval stasis, and space-filling empire things).
Points 1 and 2 can be seen as personal opinions. Many people may dislike that, but is that really sucha problem? If the Gods were based on aspects like the dragons in Warcraft, or if they were based on human charactristics, fields of life, emotions, would it be any better? If they were all human, abstract, or just some kind of a über version of their worshipers, would that make such a difference?
IMHO it would not. The problem is, in my eyes, not the shape of the gods, the thing they represent, or how many creatures belive in them, but the fact that there is such a large focuse on them. Religion is important in a fantasy world. But does everyone have to be so obssesd by them. Hell even the bad guys connect thier actions to them.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted November 04, 2013 10:02 PM |
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Elvin said:
Duel of champions fortune cards primarily involve discarding the opponent's hand, dealing direct damage to enemy hero, preventing him from drawing cards and as of recently, gating Sheogh reinforcements.
Discarding could translate into messing with the opponent's mana or the spells he can (re)cast. Abilities like the H5 counterspell or the Zoltan specialty that had a chance to block a spell from enemy spellbook could work nicely here. The might hero could use some tricks like that against potent spellcasters.
Lots of possibilities there, like it.
Elvin said:
Alci considers abyssal lords boring but man, do I like them! They would make one bad@ss champion.
Fair enough
Elvin said:
And Ashan's version of the H3 pit fiend Screw maniacs, if we have to give a whip to one unit this should be it!
Overall looks like Inferno doesn't need to be as similar to a prior iteration, unlike, for example, Necropolis
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted November 04, 2013 10:36 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 22:37, 04 Nov 2013.
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Throughout the series, inferno has been the least consistent of factions. Not always for the better but aanyway..
There is another inferno pecularity that I forgot to mention. A number of their abilities work as a double-edged knife, great to have but might work against you as well.
The enforcer for instance cannot stop his attacks, the abyssal lord eats up your resources, the lacerator can be hurt from his own area blast and the list goes on.
Nobody draws cards!
Good stats and specials but requires an ally near him to attack!
If you don't attack your hero will pay the price.
I kind of like this, making demons hard to control. Giving them good abilities and stats but with a drawback might make for an interesting gameplay with unforeseen consequences and surprises.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted November 05, 2013 05:57 AM |
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I have never seen the Demon Thrall or Frenzied Maniac in use in DoC, but nonetheless they could be good for H7, although either one or the other, not both.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted November 05, 2013 10:32 AM |
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Dave_Jame said:
Points 1 and 2 can be seen as personal opinions. Many people may dislike that, but is that really sucha problem?
For the game itself, no, but it shows a distinct lack of interest in creating a really good, immersive game.
Quote:
If the Gods were...would that make such a difference?
Yes it would, at least to some, such as the lore-buffs.
Quote:
Religion is important in a fantasy world. But does everyone have to be so obssesd by them. Hell even the bad guys connect thier actions to them.
Just more proof the writers didn't give a f***.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted November 05, 2013 11:17 AM |
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Elvin said:
Inferno operates under the principle that a good offense is a good defense; It has to make up for its defense indeficiency by delivering powerful attacks and spreading chaos through the opponent's ranks. Their high attack is further complemented by area of effect attacks, strong destructive and a luck boost which of course require good initiative to put to good use. A faction like that cannot afford to be slow, if you cannot seize the initiative to attack first or let the battle drag on then your low defense will soon put you in disadvantage. Gating reinforcements has also proven a worthwhile mechanic that takes advantage of the faction's strengths as well as weaknesses and for this reason I would like it to return. H6 did a number of improvements on it and I hope the trend will continue.
Another issue is their implementation as a faction composed of reddish humanoids. We really need some imagination there, in both form and colour. All factions suffered from that in H6 but none as much as inferno and this is why I am bringing this up.
A number of their abilities work as a double-edged knife, great to have but might work against you as well.
As far as the operating principles of Inferno go, I agree with Elvin that they are fitting and that they work. Same goes for gating, though in that instance I very much prefered the way it worked in H5. Which was more limited, but at the same time more accesable. As usefull as it was in H6, triggerconditions and destructible gates made it a lot more incidental.
The double-edged sword idea is not necessarily a bad one, but there are some drawbacks to it. Simply put, the big flaws can be very offputting to all but the dedicated players. Even more so if those flaws are unpredictable. If we want Inferno designed for "hardcore" players, that is fine, but know what you're getting yourself into.
As far as the complaint regarding the redskinned humanoids goes, I am inclined to agree, with the addendum that artistic interpretation is something inherant to Demons.
Demons have the inherant problem of being physically very ill-defined and highly individual. There are very few defined "species" of demons, other than Incubi and Succubi. Which is why I think that "going back to mythology" isn't the full answer, for the most of those are either individual demons or have no accepted appearance. The idea that demons have red skin is something very modern, but even in ye olden days, Demons were described as ugly humanoid-things with ashen skin and bristly black hair and sometimes horns. That isn't a lot to go on. And IMHO, neither more nor less appealing than the fire-'n-brimstone thing the Demons have going on now. I'm not saying that more bestial Demons would go amiss, they wouldn't. But for such ill-defined 'genus' you have to take a lot of freedoms.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted November 05, 2013 11:36 AM |
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Edited by MattII at 11:41, 05 Nov 2013.
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If you need some extra possibilities for demonic creatures, maybe try some of the demon nobility in The Lesser Key of Solomon. Admittedly most of the demons in there are humanoid-looking more-or-less, but then you run into the occasional weird-looking ones, like Buer, Buné or Ipso.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted November 05, 2013 11:52 AM |
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MattII said:
If you need some extra possibilities, for demonic creatures, maybe try some of the demon nobility in The Lesser Key of Solomon. Most of the demons in there are humanoid more-or-less, but then you run into the occasional weird-looking ones, like Buer, Buné or Ipso.
That may very well be, but that runs into the other problem I ascertained. That Demons are highly individual where descriptions exist. Which I may not have explained enough.
In this case, we are inferring a full 'species' out of an individual. This is something many have grown to accept for Cerberus, but where Mythology is concerned, there only ever was one. Cerberus was an idiviual, not a species.
We do this to with more that just Cerberus, we do this to the Minotaur as well and likely several more. But when this is done one needs to make sure one does right by the mythology of the individual.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted November 05, 2013 12:39 PM |
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Remember, individuals are unique...just like everyone else 
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted November 05, 2013 01:52 PM |
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MattII said:
Dave_Jame said:
Quote:
Religion is important in a fantasy world. But does everyone have to be so obssesd by them. Hell even the bad guys connect thier actions to them.
Just more proof the writers didn't give a f***.
It's also an easy way (read: cheap) to write motivation.
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This thread is pages long: 
