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Raelag84
Famous Hero
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posted November 05, 2013 02:30 PM |
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War-overlord said:
MattII said:
If you need some extra possibilities, for demonic creatures, maybe try some of the demon nobility in The Lesser Key of Solomon. Most of the demons in there are humanoid more-or-less, but then you run into the occasional weird-looking ones, like Buer, Buné or Ipso.
That may very well be, but that runs into the other problem I ascertained. That Demons are highly where descriptions exist. Which I may not have explained enough.
In this case, we are inferring a full 'species' out of an individual. This is something many have grown to accept for Cerberus, but where Mythology is concerned, there only ever was one. Cerberus was an idiviual, not a species.
We do this to with more that just Cerberus, we do this to the Minotaur as well and likely several more. But when this is done one needs to make sure one does right by the mythology of the individual.
I don't know why this is so difficult. In this world, demons are agents of chaos, so just make them chaotic. Maybe they have tails coming out of their necks, or eleven legs or a partial exoskeleton.
Do whatever you got to do to freak people out, then add fire.
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RMZ1989
Supreme Hero
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posted November 05, 2013 02:43 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 17:53, 05 Nov 2013.
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Stevie said:
Elvin said:
Ok, the way this creature looks is osum. That big muscular body, the horns, the thorns on the body, that blazing fire sword... But... WTF'S WITH THOSE WINGS?! They look like angel feathered wings, rather than bat-like wings, like the imp has for example.
Teleportation is a must for the inferno champion, so H6 did a great job with that (I simply loved the animation when the pit lord did lucky strikes, simply osum!).
As far as I saw, those aren't wings, but big strange spikes on the back of his body. He has attack anywhere, which means he has teleport ability, so wings aren't really needed.
http://www.hcl.hr/wallpapers/might-&-magic-duel-of-champions/1920x1080/might-&-magic-duel-of-champions-1.jpg
I like Abyssal Lords, but Hellfire Maniacs are probably my favorite Inferno units, they are just amazing! 
Raelag84 said:
I don't know why this is so difficult. In this world, demons are agents of chaos, so just make them chaotic. Maybe they have tails coming out of their necks, or eleven legs or a partial exoskeleton.
Do whatever you got to do to freak people out, then add fire.
And I completely agree with this. The best Demons I've ever seen was in Disciples 2. The higher level creature was, the more chaotic and demonic it was, multiple heads, mouths, tails, tentacles, horns and spikes everywhere. They were just crazy good.
Concept of Abyssal Devil from Disciples 2:
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Give a man a mask, and he'll
become his true self.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 05, 2013 02:53 PM |
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What use would a really impressive Inferno have, as long as they are trapped in Sheogh and can come out to play only when there is an eclipse?
As long as they are kept in Sheogh they are just blocking a faction slot.
And Inferno was my favorite town in HoMM 3, mind you.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted November 05, 2013 04:54 PM |
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Raelag84 said:
I don't know why this is so difficult. In this world, demons are agents of chaos, so just make them chaotic. Do whatever you got to do to freak people out, then add fire.
Which is why I am advocating creating Demons with great artistic liscence. The argument I'm trying to make, and it would appear that I'm doing it badly, is that turning Demons from real-life demonology into units is problematic and tricky.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted November 05, 2013 06:44 PM |
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War-overlord said:
We do this to with more that just Cerberus, we do this to the Minotaur as well and likely several more. But when this is done one needs to make sure one does right by the mythology of the individual.
However, there is at least no real indication in the Lesser Key of Solomon that the demon nobility all have unique forms, just that those are the forms of the individuals in power, but when you look at it, a king is shaped only a little differently to his subjects right?
Quote:
Which is why I am advocating creating Demons with great artistic liscence. The argument I'm trying to make, and it would appear that I'm doing it badly, is that turning Demons from real-life demonology into units is problematic and tricky.
What about those demon nobles who aren't even vaguely human? Three heads and such on an animal body?
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted November 05, 2013 06:50 PM |
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MattII said:
However, there is at least no real indication in the Lesser Key of Solomon that the demon nobility all have unique forms, just that those are the forms of the individuals in power, but when you look at it, a king is shaped only a little differently to his subjects right?
How do you come to this conclusion?
Quote:
What about those demon nobles who aren't even vaguely human? Three heads and such on an animal body?
Which might well make it some Wizard Hybrid-experiment.
Or just a magical creature like a Griffin, which is in it's essense the fusion of eagle and lion parts.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 05, 2013 09:40 PM |
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Why can't you use great artistic license intepreting real life demonology? To me that's more exciting than just pulling out awfully generic creatures like Ravagers or Abyssal Lords from thin air.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted November 05, 2013 10:21 PM |
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xerox said:
Why can't you use great artistic license intepreting real life demonology?
They did that with cerberi and you saw how well that ended 
War-overlord said:
The double-edged sword idea is not necessarily a bad one, but there are some drawbacks to it. Simply put, the big flaws can be very offputting to all but the dedicated players. Even more so if those flaws are unpredictable. If we want Inferno designed for "hardcore" players, that is fine, but know what you're getting yourself into.
I don't think anyone wants hardcore drawbacks, that would be annoying For instance the lacerator spike explosion hurting friend and foe alike was not a good idea because it required you to stay in place and was pretty restrictive in practice. However.. I wouldn't mind abilities similar to the H5 untamed cyclops' crushing blow that can be a huge offensive benefit that may backfire if you aren't careful with placement. Not necessarily that extreme and definitely not for all units of course.
____________
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Map also hosted on Moddb
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Raelag84
Famous Hero
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posted November 06, 2013 12:55 AM |
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xerox said:
Why can't you use great artistic license intepreting real life demonology? To me that's more exciting than just pulling out awfully generic creatures like Ravagers or Abyssal Lords from thin air.
Trust me. You don't want to go there. I have had many, "barrow from the real legends" discussions, and they all resulted in frustration for all parties involved.
But for the record I always thought the Cerberus was cool in the heroes games, and the beast is my favorite mystical creature from Greek myths.
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted November 06, 2013 07:10 AM |
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The champion creature for Inferno still needs to be the Devil...something with horns and hooves and massive body structure. I don't think we need to create elaborate creatures.
I even want them to bring back the Pikeman from H3 into H7!
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted November 06, 2013 07:17 AM |
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War-overlord said:
How do you come to this conclusion?
I'm not concluding that they aren't unique, just that there's not much evidence either way.
Quote:
Which might well make it some Wizard Hybrid-experiment.
Or just a magical creature like a Griffin, which is in it's essense the fusion of eagle and lion parts.
That's placing some rather arbitrary barriers in the way of diversifying. Remember, these are designs that come from a 'genuine' work of demonology.
Quote:
They did that with cerberi and you saw how well that ended
The series has done it with a lot of things (Centaurs f.e.), and drawn such usages from other sources (Gorgons f.e.).
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted November 06, 2013 12:07 PM |
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Yes but the centaurs ended up awesome. See the difference?
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Map also hosted on Moddb
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted November 06, 2013 12:49 PM |
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The centaurs ended up anorexic.
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted November 06, 2013 12:54 PM |
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I think the H5 ones just were too bloated!
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RMZ1989
Supreme Hero
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posted November 06, 2013 01:21 PM |
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I am not huge fan of Centaurs in H6, H5 ones were quite good.
But I love Blackskull Centaurs from Duel of Champions.
____________
Give a man a mask, and he'll
become his true self.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted November 06, 2013 01:39 PM |
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RMZ1989 said:
I am not huge fan of Centaurs in H6, H5 ones were quite good.
But I love Blackskull Centaurs from Duel of Champions.
You mean the one who looks like a disciples 2 (Elven centaur) and warcraft mixup?. Realy the later Blackskull creatures were to much War-ish
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted November 06, 2013 01:45 PM |
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MattII said:
War-overlord said:
How do you come to this conclusion?
I'm not concluding that they aren't unique, just that there's not much evidence either way.
And because of the lack of evidence and/or precendence, I keep saying that drawing from mythology/demonology for the creation of Demons can and likely will be problematic.
Quote:
Which might well make it some Wizard Hybrid-experiment.
Or just a magical creature like a Griffin, which is in it's essense the fusion of eagle and lion parts.
That's placing some rather arbitrary barriers in the way of diversifying. Remember, these are designs that come from a 'genuine' work of demonology.
What I was trying to get across is that such "Chimeric demons" which appear as amalgamations of animal parts would be hard to tell apart from other magical creatures which appear in similar ways.
Combining animals together is a great way of coming up with new fantasy creatures. But despite them being based on lesser known demons, there is little else that makes them demons and that is only obvious to those who know of these demons, which are few I'd hazzard. For Demons to be recognised as such, they need to be identifiable als such. Chimeric beasts aren't easily identified as Demons by the common gamer.
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted November 06, 2013 02:56 PM |
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Avirosb said:
The centaurs ended up anorexic.
Actually, centaurs have always been thin!
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted November 06, 2013 03:06 PM |
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Edited by Avirosb at 15:09, 06 Nov 2013.
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I'm thinking mainly of the lower torso area, which connects to the horse parts and has to support the weight of the upper body.
It's nothing really, just more readily apparent on the H6 models.
All HoMM centaurs look either somewhat off or goofy in their own way.
EDIT: Which is why I usually cut them the most slack.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted November 06, 2013 07:41 PM |
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Edited by MattII at 20:59, 06 Nov 2013.
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War-overlord said:
And because of the lack of evidence and/or precendence, I keep saying that drawing from mythology/demonology for the creation of Demons can and likely will be problematic.
Ah, and going by pure imagination won't?
Quote:
For Demons to be recognised as such, they need to be identifiable als such. Chimeric beasts aren't easily identified as Demons by the common gamer.
Maybe not, but if you see something with three heads you can damn well guarantee it's not going to hanging around with elves or humans, and probably not even wizards. Making them red could help as well, as well as including an excess of horns, spikes and scales.
Also remember that the Gryphon, Centaur and Gargoyle (and let's face it, the Dwarf as well) have been in three factions each, so connections can change over time.
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This thread is pages long: 
