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Storm-Giant
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 07, 2013 11:09 PM |
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Dave_Jame said:
I think I'm the only one here who hates Beho,...
A rhinophant epic champion.. thats my language... that I understan
Heresy!
War-overlord said:
Personally, I think Oliphaunts or rather Mammoths are more something for the Dwarves.
Not only they fit more there, but also Fortess need them more
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Simpelicity
Promising
Famous Hero
Video maker
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posted November 08, 2013 05:38 AM |
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Lord_Immortal said:
Necropolis:
Level 1:Neophyte->Acolyte
Level 2:Skeleton->Skeleton Warrior
Level 3:Corpse->Cadaver
Level 4:Apparition->Shadow
-Brotherhood of Soul(Hero Class Necromancer)(Theme: Spirit units, ghostly white/blue)
Level 5:Wight->Wraith(Heroes 3-like)
Level 6:Lich->Lich King
Level 7:Bone Dragon->Ghost Dragon
-Brotherhood of Plague(Hero Class Plaguedoctor)(Theme: Heroes VI Plague theme)
Level 5:Ghoul->Fell Ghoul
Level 6:?????(Else than Lamasu. I would like to see living ones in Academy)
Level 7:Weaver->Spinner
-Brotherhood of Blood(Hero Class Death Knight)(Theme:Blood Red and Black)
Level 5:Vampire Lord->Vampire Count(H5-like)
Level 6:Nospherat->Immortal(Dawnguard-like Lord)
Level 7:Black Knight->Dread Knight
I'm sorry for bringing such an old subject back, and maybe for going off the lore topic here, but I saw this a while back and just didn't really have time to expand on it, but this is a fantastic idea gameplay-wise. This is IMHO alternatives done right. Think about it : a lot of people we're actually very happy with the whole alternate upgrade system from TotE. It added a lot of depth, etc. And I've seen people call for it for H6 (back when people still had hopes for it). The whole alternate thing has had some popularity. The main complaint I've heard is that a lot of the alternatives are no-brainers. But really, fix that and it's fantastic.
Wait, fix that? Assuming 6 factions, that's 6*7=42 units to whom you have to give 2 different, useful and viable alternatives. That is ridiculously complicated.
This idea makes it so you have to create packages. It is much easier to give a distinct identity to each if you only have 3 package per faction to make. It's easier in 2 ways : firstly you only have 3 identities to forge, secondly you can have much difference between each. Let's be honest here, when you're creating the alternates of the mauler, at its base it's still the same mauler. You have more leeway when it's done over an entire 4 units.
Giving each sub-faction a different hero class also adds depth to the whole thing. I'm assuming everyone is wishing for a H3/H5-type hero skill system? Different hero classes would affect probabilities of getting certain skills. Maybe affect the "faction skills" as well, or later stages of them (some equivalent of the H6 reputation skill, or the H5 faction-specific skill).
There's an important question to ask ourselves with such a system : how do you choose? By building a specific building in the town? By triggering it from your main hero (assuming there's a "main hero", triggering it kinda like reputation level ups in H6)? Main hero reaching a specific level? The most logical is probably building in the castle. But then :
Any castle?
Probably.
Building once locks every other castle?
Probably.
What happens if you lose all castles of this faction?
Erm, it probably shouldn't reset, code it how you want, but once the choice is done it's done. Unless someone has a better idea of course.
What happens when you capture a castle of your faction but a different sub-faction?
You could recycle the "convert" option and have it only to convert your faction's cities to your own sub-faction (and not convert cities of other factions to your faction). You'll note that that's a conversion that even somewhat makes sense.
Of course if the concept of Main hero is brought back, having a reputation-like button to trigger it would be much simpler. There's still a question going with it though :
When can you trigger it? The simplest answer is when your hero reaches a certain level, unless we invent another reputation-like system.
Do you need this system to provide more depth? Here :
Different hero classes would logically affect skill probabilities, and most definitely eventual faction-specific skills. Basic heroes wouldn't get access to higher tiers of faction-specific skills, simply because the skills change so much from sub-faction to sub-faction. They could also not have access to the higher tiers of normal skills. What would that mean, that you need to rush to make your choice? But what if the basic hero had, say, perfectly neutral probabilities to get skills? If you push it a little, maybe your future warlock can learn water magic? But how far are you going to push it? How long are you willing to delay your higher creature tiers for it? Probably not long. Does this feel a little too luck-based for you? Well, the entire system is luck-based, we'd need to not completely abandon the H6 model for it to not be luck-based. But that's off my topic.
Another consideration : monster tiers. I loved it in H6. The problem here is that this faction division kind of divides the current elite tier in 2. We'd have to redo the whole tier thing. Here's a proposition :
There would be 2 tiers : Core and Elite, and each tier would have its Champion. Core has the 4 creatures common to all sub-factions, while Elite is sub-faction specific. The Core champion would be somewhere between Core and Elite in terms of strenght, maybe the equivalent of a weak Elite. The Elite champion would of course be the champion creature as we know it. So those 2 tiers would translate into kind of 4 tiers technically.
Now, This all was written regardless of Lord Immortal's speculations on what the creatures should be. I don't necessarily agree with all his creature/sub-faction ideas. But I loved the idea for its gameplay implications, so I had to point it out.
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted November 08, 2013 08:00 AM |
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War-overlord said:
Personally, I think Oliphaunts or rather Mammoths are more something for the Dwarves.
Hmmm mammoths belong in snow (dwarves) and Oliphants in the desert (stronghold)...
Okay, maybe Oliphants as an Elite creature, like the ones in Lord of the Rings carrying all those orcs into battle....
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted November 08, 2013 08:29 AM |
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War-overlord said:
Personally, I think Oliphaunts or rather Mammoths are more something for the Dwarves.
The Dwarves? I'd have thought more the wizards myself, the dwarves seem more likely to me to have bears (at least those do live in caves sometimes).
DoubleDeck said:
Hmmm mammoths belong in snow (dwarves) and Oliphants in the desert (stronghold)...
I thought Academy was the desert faction these days (with the Orcs in taiga)?
Quote:
Okay, maybe Oliphants as an Elite creature, like the ones in Lord of the Rings carrying all those orcs into battle....
Oliphants the size of buildings as merely Elite units?
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted November 08, 2013 09:53 AM |
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MattII said:
The Dwarves? I'd have thought more the wizards myself, the dwarves seem more likely to me to have bears (at least those do live in caves sometimes).
Remember that Dwarf Runemages rode Mammoths in Heroes5. I think Mammoths would make great elite/champion units. IMO there would be no need to exclude bears. And seeing as bears are seen as iconic Dwarf Allies, I doubt they would be excluded were we ever to see Dwarves again.
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted November 08, 2013 10:18 AM |
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Well as long as Ashan exists, the Dwarves would exist in Grimheim...hope we do see them in H7 (Thanes would be awesome):
Still think Mammoths would belong to dwarves and Oliphants to stronghold...
For you are talking academy, then yes the circus elephant 
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DarkLord
Supreme Hero
Fear me..
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posted November 08, 2013 11:43 AM |
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What about NEW faction?
will there be any ?
the only possibility i see is the Fortress H3 (swamp based)
and i'd personally prefer creatures from Slavic mythology (as there are plenty interesting ones)
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted November 08, 2013 11:53 AM |
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DarkLord said:
What about NEW faction?
will there be any ?
As much as I hate it. No.
Ubi has stated that there are 9 factions in Ashan. And we know all 9 of them.
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
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posted November 08, 2013 12:31 PM |
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@DarkLord: the factions would remain the same if based on Ashan, but the creatures could change, like they could incorporate slavic mythology for instance in Academy faction..
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted November 08, 2013 04:07 PM |
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War-overlord said:
MattII said:
The Dwarves? I'd have thought more the wizards myself, the dwarves seem more likely to me to have bears (at least those do live in caves sometimes).
Remember that Dwarf Runemages rode Mammoths in Heroes5. I think Mammoths would make great elite/champion units. IMO there would be no need to exclude bears. And seeing as bears are seen as iconic Dwarf Allies, I doubt they would be excluded were we ever to see Dwarves again.
Everything that can avoid another "6 dwarves and a Dragon" lineup T_T
(The compendium already headed that way iirc)
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted November 08, 2013 04:10 PM |
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Storm-Giant said:
Everything that can avoid another "6 dwarves and a Dragon" lineup. (The compendium already headed that way iirc)
It is.
Though the Valkyries and Fire Giants are still technically Dwarves. They are them in spirit, even though not in body anymore.
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Storm-Giant
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posted November 08, 2013 04:31 PM |
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As long as they don't look like a Dwarf and they leave room for interesting abilities, I have no problem with that
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted November 08, 2013 04:38 PM |
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The dwarves shoulda had yetis as well 
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted November 08, 2013 04:50 PM |
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Avirosb said:
The dwarves shoulda had yetis as well
According to the previous page, the yeti sided with the Ice Naga.
A shame though. I'd well agree with Yeti siding with Dwarves. I made similar proposals myself.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted November 08, 2013 07:29 PM |
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Edited by MattII at 19:30, 08 Nov 2013.
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In terms of H6 arrangements, here's my first Dwarf lineup suggestion:
Core
Defender > Shieldguard tank
Wolf > Dire Wolf striker
Minebow > Warbow support
Elite
tank
Bear > War-Bear striker
Rune Priest > Runemaster support
Champion
Fire Drake > Firestone Drake
Now the only one that's got me is the Elite tank, I don't want to use the Thane > Warlord unit from H5, but I'm not against a Dwarf unit filling the role, yet that means have four dwarves in the lineup, yet I can't quite justify the yeti to myself either, it just doesn't seem all that much of a dwarfish (or nordic) creature.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted November 08, 2013 07:43 PM |
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For me the only must dwarves in the lineup are a core defender(very resilient with decent damage) and thanes(that are now kind of fire giants). So if we keep a ranged dwarf, a valkyrie, a bear and the magmazilla we are missing one unit. I do not consider the ranged dwarf a must, it could be a fire creature that helps in their forges, a servant of Arkath. And with the thane having magical enchantments on his hammer, the valkyrie being a magical creature and the zilla having a (potentially activated) fire attack, we don't really need a fire priest though the lineup could use a second ranged unit. A mechanical contraption might be fun there, offering ranged fire and support or perhaps some kind of tamed beast..
That said, the dwarves do not necessarily need two ranged units, as their toughness and runes would allow a mostly-walker army to cross the battlefield without many losses. Or resist an enemy charge if need be.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted November 08, 2013 07:49 PM |
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Elvin said:
For me the only must dwarves in the lineup are a core defender(very resilient with decent damage) and thanes(that are now kind of fire giants). So if we keep a ranged dwarf, a valkyrie, a bear and the magmazilla we are missing one unit. I do not consider the ranged dwarf a must, it could be a fire creature that helps in their forges, a servant of Arkath. And with the thane having magical enchantments on his hammer, the valkyrie being a magical creature and the zilla having a (potentially activated) fire attack, we don't really need a fire priest though the lineup could use a second ranged unit. A mechanical contraption might be fun there, offering ranged fire and support or perhaps some kind of tamed beast..
That said, the dwarves do not necessarily need two ranged units, as their toughness and runes would allow a mostly-walker army to cross the battlefield without many losses. Or resist an enemy charge if need be.
Dwarves with flamethrowers.
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Elvin
Admirable
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Endless Revival
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posted November 08, 2013 07:53 PM |
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Win ^^
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted November 08, 2013 08:19 PM |
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I wonder how people would feel if someone said "oh no, you can't have more than 3 human units in the haven lineup".
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted November 08, 2013 08:29 PM |
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Humans have always been traditionally boring, you cannot deprive them of their trademark
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