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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted November 11, 2013 11:38 AM |
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Vindicator said:
Why are its claws and fangs so disproportionately long?
Because he needs to slain non supporters of him like you
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted November 11, 2013 12:12 PM |
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How about this for a behemoth:
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted November 11, 2013 12:16 PM |
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted November 11, 2013 02:07 PM |
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Kind of looks like a retard too.
I'm kind of surprised that there are people who find Ashan factions simplistic. Pre-ubi factions were the epitome of generic and people loved them for that. If anything, I'd rather ubi took a hint and made things more general than too Ashan-specific.
But like always, the problem is not Ashan. It's the bad writing and overly serious tone that break my immersion. Both of which have started improving as of lately I might add. Crag dlc brought back the fun and M&M Legacy also shows promise:
Quote:
Having grown up with the early Might & Magic games, I very much wanted to bring back some of their unique eccentricity into Might & Magic X. But it was clear from the beginning Might & Magic X would not be a parody of fantasy, because that¢s not what Ashan is supposed to be. And truth be told, there¢s nothing inherently funny or wacky about the adventure the Raiders are embarking upon in Legacy. Battles will be fought. People will die. The villains are not moustache-twirling caricatures: they mean business, and actually have good reasons to do what they do (or at least they think their reasons are good...)
However, while discussing the tone of the game with Erwan Le Breton, the creative director of the Might & Magic brand as a whole, we quickly agreed that it didn¢t need to be as serious as the Heroes games are. Might & Magic X would be "a serious story that doesn¢t take itself too seriously."
https://mightandmagicx-legacy.ubi.com/opendev/blog/post/view/the-tone-of-might-magic
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted November 11, 2013 02:24 PM |
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Elvin said:
I'm kind of surprised that there are people who find Ashan factions simplistic. Pre-ubi factions were the epitome of generic and people loved them for that.
Did they? Or did they love them despite that. Don't get me wrong, I agree with your assessment. 3D0-era factions were execptionally generic and often little more than bundlings of vaguely thematic creatures. But I doubt that many people love them for that, or simply love them anyway.
Elvin said:
If anything, I'd rather ubi took a hint and made things more general than too Ashan-specific.
But like always, the problem is not Ashan. It's the bad writing and overly serious tone that break my immersion. Both of which have started improving as of lately I might add. Crag dlc brought back the fun
I wouldn't have them take the hint of making things more generic. But writing improvement and less taking itself too seriously would go a long way.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted November 11, 2013 02:43 PM |
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Edited by Avirosb at 14:46, 11 Nov 2013.
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Best thing about the old factions was NWC didn't try to hit you over the head with their world-building.
Everything about Ashan is overly grandiose and intricate.
Just incorporate the interesting tidbits into the story and stop treating the player in a condescending manner.
"We should go to [x creature] next, [x creature] has [y ability] that will surely help us on our quest"
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Simpelicity
Promising
Famous Hero
Video maker
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posted November 11, 2013 03:10 PM |
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War-overlord said:
Did they? Or did they love them despite that.
It's despite that for me. That's partly why I absolutely love the undead now, they stopped being the generic caricatures that they were in H3.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted November 11, 2013 03:28 PM |
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I do agree that NWC era was too generic, but I think the writing, stories and game inmersion worked for them.
Also, they weren't so restricted by religion and "serve this god or another one" stuff
But, since all I read here since PotSS release are all but praises for the improvements over the writing and the stories, I'll keep some hope for the next games of the brand
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted November 11, 2013 03:40 PM |
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Elvin said:
Kind of looks like a retard too.
That's why it's a behemoth 
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted November 11, 2013 03:53 PM |
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Simpelicity said:
War-overlord said:
Did they? Or did they love them despite that.
It's despite that for me. That's partly why I absolutely love the undead now, they stopped being the generic caricatures that they were in H3.
And started being a generic caricature of a cult, because everyone loves those. Also, green is a cool color.
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Simpelicity
Promising
Famous Hero
Video maker
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posted November 11, 2013 04:33 PM |
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Avirosb said:
And started being a generic caricature of a cult, because everyone loves those. Also, green is a cool color.
Hardly. Sveltana and Anastasya fit that mold, although Anastasya only in the expansion : she couldn't care less about the Spider before, she had vengeance to get. Vein and Ludmilla don't seem to care much about the Spider either. Vein almost seems to be doing things more because it's against Sandro than because it saves the Spider, although he does end up having to save it. And then Ludmilla... just doesn't seem to care about much actually. I don't like how she's written. And then there's of course Sandro and the nethermancer on one side, and on the other Belketh, who poses for the Spider but is a very ambiguous figure throughout the expansion. He's for the Spider but won't do much to help her, and what little he does amounts more to token participation than actual help. Almost as if he doesn't care if the Spider gets lost.
Roster-wise, there's only 2, maybe 3 creatures that are sentient : vampires, liches and maybe weavers (that last one ain't clear). weavers are definitely for the Spider right now, but if they're like angels, who knows how much they could stray if Namtaru gets out of their face for a while. Vampires have their own interests, their own reasons for undeath, and they don't seem to care much for the Spider (see Ludmilla). Liches seem more interested in themselves than religion as well, though I'm less certain of why they stick around.
Also, and overall, whether they're doing things for their cult or their own reasons, either is still leaps and bounds better (as far as reasons go) than doing it because obviously they're evil can't you tell? (the H3 necromancer in a nutshell)
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted November 11, 2013 04:46 PM |
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Alas, Vampires came to be because of the Namtaruvenom, which has replaced their blood. Liches need to take Namtaruvenom on a regular basis to remain in their state of unlife.
That is the reason why most Liches needed to save the Namtaru and why most Vampires choose to remain with the cult.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted November 11, 2013 06:43 PM |
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Edited by MattII at 20:28, 11 Nov 2013.
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Elvin said:
I'm kind of surprised that there are people who find Ashan factions simplistic. Pre-ubi factions were the epitome of generic and people loved them for that. If anything, I'd rather ubi took a hint and made things more general than too Ashan-specific.
Made them very race-heavy too (leastways with Dungeon, the abominable Fortress, and the god-awful theme of race-specific heroes), which made things a bit boring.
Quote:
But like always, the problem is not Ashan. It's the bad writing and overly serious tone that break my immersion.
Yes, and some of that carried over into the world-building.
Quote:
Also, green is a cool color.
In small doses, yes, otherwise, like any colour when it gets overused, or becomes garish and horrible.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted November 11, 2013 07:36 PM |
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Edited by Avirosb at 19:37, 11 Nov 2013.
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Simpelicity said:
Avirosb said:
And started being a generic caricature of a cult, because everyone loves those. Also, green is a cool color.
Hardly. Sveltana and Anastasya fit that mold, although Anastasya only in the expansion : she couldn't care less about the Spider before, she had vengeance to get. Vein and Ludmilla don't seem to care much about the Spider either. Vein almost seems to be doing things more because it's against Sandro than because it saves the Spider, although he does end up having to save it. And then Ludmilla... just doesn't seem to care about much actually. I don't like how she's written. And then there's of course Sandro and the nethermancer on one side, and on the other Belketh, who poses for the Spider but is a very ambiguous figure throughout the expansion. He's for the Spider but won't do much to help her, and what little he does amounts more to token participation than actual help. Almost as if he doesn't care if the Spider gets lost.
Roster-wise, there's only 2, maybe 3 creatures that are sentient : vampires, liches and maybe weavers (that last one ain't clear). weavers are definitely for the Spider right now, but if they're like angels, who knows how much they could stray if Namtaru gets out of their face for a while. Vampires have their own interests, their own reasons for undeath, and they don't seem to care much for the Spider (see Ludmilla). Liches seem more interested in themselves than religion as well, though I'm less certain of why they stick around.
Also, and overall, whether they're doing things for their cult or their own reasons, either is still leaps and bounds better (as far as reasons go) than doing it because obviously they're evil can't you tell? (the H3 necromancer in a nutshell)
I'm discussing visual make-up, not character motivations.
Bar the occasional excpetion, every hero have a pale hue - or extremely dark - skin tone and green eyes.
But I wouldn't call the cult - which has a penchant for trapping people's souls in their own decayed bodies - good.
As for H3, you could ask; why are most necromancers evil?
Here's the necromancer in a nutshell:
Necromancers are magic users seduced by the easy power of death magic.
The price of their art is that its practice slowly drains life from its wielders-eventually transforming them into liches.
Necromancers often wear colorful attire in an attempt to maintain the appearance of humanity.
I find it logical (and somewhat tragic) that when one basically look like a corpse,
is shunned by society and start to lose the track of time,
one's sanity would slowly begin to deteriorate.
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Raelag84
Famous Hero
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posted November 11, 2013 09:33 PM |
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Elvin said:
I'm kind of surprised that there are people who find Ashan factions simplistic. Pre-ubi factions were the epitome of generic and people loved them for that. If anything, I'd rather ubi took a hint and made things more general than too Ashan-specific.
Not all of us are nostalgic for Heroes III. The heroes 5 factions were were extremely imersive both in their history and in their fighting styles. It took me years to learn how to master the heroes 5 dungeon faction and that's one of the simpler factions (there's a little more to them than just blowing enemies up with spells, though that's a discussion for another thread).
The problem is the heroes 6 factions are not as diverse and as complex as the heroes 5 factions. I never bought heroes six for several reasons, one of which I felt like I had mastered factions in a few days of just playing the demo.
Furthermore there are particular problems with the sanctuary faction that I would rather not discuss here. Can we talk about it over private messaging?
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted November 11, 2013 09:38 PM |
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MattII said:
Quote:
Also, green is a cool color.
In small doses, yes, otherwise, like any colour when it gets overused, or becomes garish and horrible.
You can never have too much fluorescent green!
@Simplicity: I think he was talking about the creautres re cult, not the hero's personalities.
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Simpelicity
Promising
Famous Hero
Video maker
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posted November 12, 2013 12:15 AM |
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War-overlord said:
Alas, Vampires came to be because of the Namtaruvenom, which has replaced their blood. Liches need to take Namtaruvenom on a regular basis to remain in their state of unlife.
That is the reason why most Liches needed to save the Namtaru and why most Vampires choose to remain with the cult.
That hardly makes them devoted cultists though. The worms in your intestines absolutely need you to feed them your fluids passing through, that doesn't mean they have your best interests at heart - far from it.
Avirosb said:
I'm discussing visual make-up, not character motivations.
Bar the occasional excpetion, every hero have a pale hue - or extremely dark - skin tone and green eyes.
You're discussing visual makeup... of just heroes? Their appearance has a certain theme, sure, but a theme is not necessarily a problem. And I fail to see how the theme you describe relates to a caricatural cult.
As far as creatures go, it's kinda hard to not be slightly generic when designing undead, but they still broke away from undead caricatures more than H3. Started with the vampire in H5, and then continued with the weavers in H6 (and getting rid of the dreadful reaver thing they had).
I'll add that creature design often flows from lore and the motivations of inner factions. Vampires are an example of that. You can't just look at what the creatures look like, you have to understand why as well. That's also why the reaver was dreadful to me in H5, felt like it had little purpose or design other than just being a generic death unit you could throw in.
Quote:
But I wouldn't call the cult - which has a penchant for trapping people's souls in their own decayed bodies - good.
I never called the cult good, I called it motivation. A normal, concrete, and interesting one (interesting if only by what they actually believe in, and how that relates to their actions). Judging whether or not what they do is good is completely besides the point.
Quote:
As for H3, you could ask; why are most necromancers evil?
Here's the necromancer in a nutshell:
Necromancers are magic users seduced by the easy power of death magic.
The price of their art is that its practice slowly drains life from its wielders-eventually transforming them into liches.
Necromancers often wear colorful attire in an attempt to maintain the appearance of humanity.
I find it logical (and somewhat tragic) that when one basically look like a corpse,
is shunned by society and start to lose the track of time,
one's sanity would slowly begin to deteriorate.
There's very little in the game that actually points to them being insane, however nice that theory may be (or not, personnally I still find that boring. Nevermind motivations, they're all insane! And then Sandro comes and ruins that).
They are consistently portrayed as evil and power-hungry. All of them. And it's always their sole reason for doing things. Firstly that's incredibly boring, secondly that's also incredibly limiting. Notice how many undead have actually contributed something good to the world in H6, despite their very... ambiguous nature? You've still got the Sandros and Markals (albeit with more character development than just "power-hungry"), but you also have much more ambiguous figures, like Belketh and Vein. They are both guilty of slaughtering so many, for their own reasons, and yet still contribute something more, because those reasons weren't simply "I'm evil kill everything". They have purpose beyond that. It's rather entertaining to watch, as far as I'm concerned.
Raelag84 said:
The heroes 5 factions were were extremely imersive both in their history
What? I'm sorry, I don't really read all the extra stuff, I just read the faction visuals and the story elements. And both made H5 factions very caricatural. They were each molds in which every character fit perfectly. It's H6 that started allowing its characters to deviate from the original mold. I'm not sure what you saw in the side lore books, but I kinda doubt most of it was made use of outside the actual lore books. Feels like it would've been more apparent than that otherwise.
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Raelag84
Famous Hero
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posted November 12, 2013 12:33 AM |
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Simpelicity said:
Raelag84 said:
The heroes 5 factions were were extremely imersive both in their history
What? I'm sorry, I don't really read all the extra stuff, I just read the faction visuals and the story elements. And both made H5 factions very caricatural. They were each molds in which every character fit perfectly. It's H6 that started allowing its characters to deviate from the original mold. I'm not sure what you saw in the side lore books, but I kinda doubt most of it was made use of outside the actual lore books. Feels like it would've been more apparent than that otherwise.
I don't want to argue about this. I saw something I liked, I gave a compliment and I don't owe anyone an explanation.
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Simpelicity
Promising
Famous Hero
Video maker
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posted November 12, 2013 12:39 AM |
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A little defensive but that's all right, I can understand. You know I'm not nearly as angry as I may sound in some posts, this was genuine curiosity about how you perceived H5. Nobody has to discuss anything in here though.
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Raelag84
Famous Hero
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posted November 12, 2013 01:48 AM |
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Simpelicity said:
A little defensive but that's all right, I can understand. You know I'm not nearly as angry as I may sound in some posts, this was genuine curiosity about how you perceived H5. Nobody has to discuss anything in here though.
Ok...I am sorry I was a little defensive. I will explain. I won't convince, but I will explain.
Even without the lore book I could see the internal conflict in two of the factions. The priest in Haven unknowingly serving demons, and the rise of Arenter within the necromancer nation both revealed factions at war with their own philosophies. Granted, neither of these stories was special.
What got my attention the most though, was dungeon. In the dark elves I saw a people made stronger by over whelming fear, and, in a way, I have seen this before in real life. I met people who escaped the genocides in Darfur and South Sudan. Most of them came out feeling very idealistic, with the "never again" slogan engraved firmly into their minds. But there's some others, some others who want to get ready for the next fight. Those people are driven by overwhelming fear and will fight oppression at all cost even if it means becoming oppressors themselves.
That is what I saw in Eurina.
The little dark elf witch sought shelter under Rutger proving her people were on the run, and to make matters worse she was under assault from all sides, even from her fellow Dark elf, Sinatar. But she defeats all comers, because she and her people are strengthened by that all powerful fear. With her every casting of destructive magic I can hear screaming, "No not again. No not again!"
Somehow it is morbidly interesting, to see the dark elves become the same xenophobic aggression that almost destroyed them.
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This thread is pages long: 
