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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted November 12, 2013 01:53 AM |
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Edited by Avirosb at 15:37, 12 Nov 2013.
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You're discussing visual makeup... of just heroes?
Heroes mainly, though it still applies to the creatures due to the limited palette.
Not that Necropolis should be singled out, every faction has their own "primary" color(s).
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As far as creatures go, it's kinda hard to not be slightly generic when designing undead, but they still broke away from undead caricatures more than H3. Started with the vampire in H5
vampires heavily inspired by Warhammer I believe, which again are inspired by various other sources.
The H6 vampire is just another addition to the "prettyboy vampire" movement of late.
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and then continued with the weavers in H6 (and getting rid of the dreadful reaver thing they had).
I'm not sure I know what a 'reaver' is in this context. Are you referring to the Wraith?
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I'll add that creature design often flows from lore and the motivations of inner factions. Vampires are an example of that. You can't just look at what the creatures look like, you have to understand why as well.
I understand why, yet I fail to appreciate the explanation.
Drinking venom to age backwards? What?
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I never called the cult good, I called it motivation. A normal, concrete, and interesting one (interesting if only by what they actually believe in, and how that relates to their actions). Judging whether or not what they do is good is completely besides the point.
What's their motivation again?
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There's very little in the game that actually points to them being insane, however nice that theory may be (or not, personnally I still find that boring. Nevermind motivations, they're all insane! And then Sandro comes and ruins that).
I have a feeling we take turns generalizing here. Regardless, whether it is a freudian excuse or "for the greater good",
it's all been done outside the franchise, and better.
Perhaps Ubi's writing could have been somewhat salvageable if not for the persistent use of voice acting;
a thing of evil that takes otherwise okay lines and turns them into silly magibabble.
Elder Scrolls too is guilty in doing this.
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They are consistently portrayed as evil and power-hungry. All of them.
Not so. H3 Necropolis as a whole is an off-shoot from Bracada that has made a section of Erathia their own (sounds familiar?) Individually, very few character bios directly alludes to a character being evil.
I could easily see most of them being free agents, joining whatever cause they wish.
I can't say the same for the H6 heroes who seems "chained" to their respective factions due to being color-coded.
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Notice how many undead have actually contributed something good to the world in H6, despite their very... ambiguous nature?
I can't say I do, as it is my somber opinion that nothing good will ever come out of Ashan.
Besides, Gauldoth was ten times more interesting and complex than any of those wannabes.
Interestingly; Pre-Aranthir, Ashan Necropolis had more in common with Heroes 3 than 6.
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You've still got the Sandros and Markals (albeit with more character development than just "power-hungry")
Insofar 'hammy' and 'overly talkative' are character development.
Do they change their ways two-thirds into the story? Because that's characer development.
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you also have much more ambiguous figures, like Belketh and Vein. They are both guilty of slaughtering so many, for their own reasons, and yet still contribute something more, because those reasons weren't simply "I'm evil kill everything". They have purpose beyond that. It's rather entertaining to watch, as far as I'm concerned.
I liked it better when HoMM campaigns were centered around war and conquest rather than snide characters with personal issues
(they can still have issues, just don't put the main focus on them).
Cool that you find it entertaining though.
I guess that's why you own the game while I keep waiting for JVC to come back (and probably disappoint me) 
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted November 12, 2013 10:33 AM |
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Simpelicity said:
War-overlord said:
Alas, Vampires came to be because of the Namtaruvenom, which has replaced their blood. Liches need to take Namtaruvenom on a regular basis to remain in their state of unlife.
That is the reason why most Liches needed to save the Namtaru and why most Vampires choose to remain with the cult.
That hardly makes them devoted cultists though. The worms in your intestines absolutely need you to feed them your fluids passing through, that doesn't mean they have your best interests at heart - far from it.
It does when you have to be a high-ranking member of said cult to even be allowed to have such "worms" in your intestines in the first place.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted November 12, 2013 12:25 PM |
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@Simplicity: You say Reaver above, are you referring to Wraith. I particularily liked the Wraiths in H5...
I also thought the H5 factions were immersive in their history, just my opinion.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted November 12, 2013 12:40 PM |
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Avirosb said:
Drinking venom to age backwards? What?
A wizard did it!
Avirosb said:
I guess that's why you own the game while I keep waiting for JVC to come back (and probably disappoint me)
I know that feel bro
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted November 12, 2013 12:50 PM |
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I don't see Caneghem coming back. How I wish I could see one more heroes from him but I am still grateful for his legacy 
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted November 12, 2013 03:12 PM |
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Man, it would be good if they made the game like H1 again...nice and simple (but balanced).
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted November 12, 2013 06:53 PM |
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Edited by MattII at 18:57, 12 Nov 2013.
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Raelag84 said:
Even without the lore book I could see the internal conflict in two of the factions. The priest in Haven unknowingly serving demons, and the rise of Arenter within the necromancer nation both revealed factions at war with their own philosophies. Granted, neither of these stories was special.
That's little different from H3, which had Lord Haart killing King Gryphonheart, and that last campaign of the Contested Lands, and that just in the Vanilla, never mind what came in 'Armageddon's Blade' and 'The Shadow of Death'. We also get (in the vanilla alone) Titalia and Krewlod, who have little interest in the goings on in Erathia beyond the bit where it means they can loot the borders, the Dungeon and the Inferno and the Necromancers are on a path of their own.
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Raelag84
Famous Hero
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posted November 12, 2013 10:50 PM |
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MattII said:
Raelag84 said:
Even without the lore book I could see the internal conflict in two of the factions. The priest in Haven unknowingly serving demons, and the rise of Arenter within the necromancer nation both revealed factions at war with their own philosophies. Granted, neither of these stories was special.
That's little from H3, which had Lord Haart killing King Gryphonheart, and that last campaign of the Contested Lands, and that just in the Vanilla, never mind what came in 'Armageddon's Blade' and 'The Shadow of Death'. We also get (in the vanilla alone) Titalia and Krewlod, who have little interest in the goings on in Erathia beyond the bit where it means they can loot the borders, the Dungeon and the Inferno and the Necromancers are on a path of their own.
(Shrugs) what exactly do you expect me to do? Argue back?
I have an opinion and if it's not justified, then too bad. I am walking around misguided and I'm going to stay that way.
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Simpelicity
Promising
Famous Hero
Video maker
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posted November 13, 2013 06:21 AM |
bonus applied by Elvin on 13 Nov 2013. |
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Raelag84 said:
(Shrugs) what exactly do you expect me to do? Argue back?
I have an opinion and if it's not justified, then too bad. I am walking around misguided and I'm going to stay that way.
Litterature - the act of writing a story, whether in a book or for a video game - is considered art for a reason. It's a matter of taste, and the appreciation of each individual depends heavily on how they experience and interpret what they see, which in turn is also affected by their past experiences. He has a very legitimate reason for not appreciating it as much if he feels like he's seen the story before (and better), while you also have perfectly legitimate reasons for liking the same thing. You can't exactly argue these things, you just say what you liked and didn't, and why, and just compare notes with how others experienced things. See for instance, it was interesting to see how you linked the dark elves with events in Darfur or Sudan. Not something I would've thought of myself, that's why it's interesting to share our appreciations of things. You can see things in new lights.
Personnally I didn't like the factions because I thought they were much too unidimensionnal. They all had a history, sure, but it felt like each faction was given 1 or 2 defining characteristics, and then all their actions went along those defining lines. That's not to say that it was a bad idea, or that their given history was bad, but it's just not something I'd personnally enjoy. It did its job though. I'm pretty sure they kept it simple because they were introducing a new world, they needed to clearly define every faction, paint everyone in a clear corner, so that players could easily identify everyone. I enjoyed H6 a lot more because for every faction that was in both games, the H6 story/characters seem to moving in the opposite direction of the defining characteristics of H5, even though those characteristics are still present to some extent. That's interesting world-building, in my humble opinion.
War-overlord said:
It does when you have to be a high-ranking member of said cult to even be allowed to have such "worms" in your intestines in the first place.
I'm sorry, that's not what I meant. In the image I was using, the vampires and liches are the worms to the cult's "body". They are feeding off their energy, Namtaruvenom. That may be less true of liches if they really have to be faithful to get there, but even then I'd have doubts about the sincerity of at least some of them. Definitely true of the vampires though, as I understand it they don't need it as actively as liches do. I may be wrong though.
Avirosb said:
Stuff
I'm sorry Avisrob, this is taking ridiculous amounts of space. I'll try to cover everything in one go (at least all the important things), gonna be more readeable I think. Do note, as forewarning, that I read little of the side stuff, my comprehension of things stems mostly from observing the aesthetics and watching the story. There are a few things I get from side things though. Just sayin' this is my comprehension of things.
Firstly, the cult. They are self-appointed keepers of the cycle of life and death in Ashan. A grand purpose, if there ever was one. They will tell anyone they are serving Asha herself, however concretely speaking, they are not taking orders from Asha herself, they are obeying the incarnation of her Nightmares. Personnally, that casts legitimate doubt on whether or not they actually are serving Asha, and by extension whether or not they are actually needed (who was safekeeping that cycle before them? Was it ever needed?). One would argue it was only needed once people learned to mess with it, as the necromancers did, but still, there is doubt.
From this role they give themselves some rights, namely to mess with that same cycle they are protecting. They'll pull "souls" out of that cycle to serve their own needs, or outrageously enough, to punish a bad person. Just note who was given the authority to judge one's life in most religions and you'll see how conceited it actually is of them to give themselves that role.
They also have a blatant disregard for living beings. THey can take refuge in the whole cycle thing, saying things like it doesn't matter, the soul goes on, etc. "All serve Asha", that is to say all their essences do, and since they are self-appointed agents of Asha, they seem to have given themselves the authority to use everyone's essence as they seem best fit. There is also a heavy contradiction here, in that they will discard living beings in the name of "good principles", but they themselves will desperatly cling to their own life. If it's not that big a deal, why care so much?
Secondly, vampires. I don't remember very clearly where I picked that up, I think it may have been back in the H5 days. In any case, you can sum it up easily : they are seeking eternal perfection, where they provide perfection and undeath provides eternity. That is, once again, extremely conceited of them, if only from the assumption that they represent some kind of perfection. The persona they are given wasn't that of "pretty boy", it is much more that of "aristocracy". Supremely self-confident, convinced of their superiority over everything and everyone. "Aristocracy" does, to some extent, include the concept of "pretty boy", but pretty boy fails to explain them entirely. I don't think that's what they were going for.
And for an example of a designing a unit aesthetically from its lore, let's see that with the vampire. They wear elaborate armor, with decorative touches (horns on a helmet serve little defensive purpose, they're just fancy). Their standing position is rather regal, hand(s?) resting on the sword (point in the earth), chin up, chest up as well, very classy. In a word, they're posing like kings of this joint (I'm sure they very much think they are). And then look at their fighting style. They twirl their sword around twice before actually hitting the thing, which serves no purpose other than being fancy. And then there's their crit animation, which is one of my favorites in the game : it looks great. But it's completely impractical, throwing your sword away does not in any way improve your performance (their jump at the end does though). In a word, they're showing off. Show off poseurs, very full of themselves, that's what you see on the battlefield. They do look great, but when you think about it in very practical terms, they're also ridiculous and pompous.
Thirdly, and I think lastly because this is getting long (no one will read this QQ), Sandro and Markal. Character development was the wrong term to use I think, they don't evolve. What I wanted to say is their motivation goes beyond simply being power-hungry. Sandro's motives stem from some faith he has in the void. His exact motives, however, were left very unclear. Some have the theory of travel between worlds, which is a little stretched because he seems hell bent on destroying Asha (who hardly seems like an obstacle to world-travel). My own interpretation, but I've failed to find exactly where I got that from, was that he meant to gift the world to the void because then "everyone" could have control over their destinies, and basically mold the world as they wish (that's his good guy explanation). However I recall him inviting Vein to join him, saying something along the lines that Vein too (is remarkable enough that he) would have the power to shape the world that would be leftover from the void. What I got from that is that Sandro believes only exceptional people would really control things post-void, and he considered Vein one of them. He would obviously consider himself one of those shaping the world around him as well. So overall, what I got from that is that there would only be a few exceptionnal individuals, but of course only those that sided with Sandro, that would get to shape the world post-void. I dunno, but it awfully sounds like Sandro is getting rid of Asha and her dragons to replace them with him (as Asha) and his followers (as dragons). Same old Sandro, but so much bigger.
Another theory is that Sandro truly wants to erase this world after some trauma happened way back. I don't think they made Sandro quite that insane, but it's possible.
As for Markal, he went on an absolute rampage. He exacted revenge on the mages. He then took over the Empire for a while. However it was also heavily hinted in a nearby thread that Markal was also practicing/rehearsing complete resurrections with the goal of bringing back Sandro. A double objective of wrecking havoc on old enemies while preparing a much larger, much more dangerous scheme.
My goodness this is ridiculously long. My apologies. Good job reading to this point.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted November 13, 2013 07:01 AM |
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Edited by MattII at 07:02, 13 Nov 2013.
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(Shrugs) what exactly do you expect me to do? Argue back?
I have an opinion and if it's not justified, then too bad. I am walking around misguided and I'm going to stay that way.
I'm just pointing out that as in-depth as the writing in H5 was, the writing of H3 can match it for most things, and at least none of the H3 campaigns required the heroes to be absolute dimwits (at least until 'Shadow of Death', but that may have been thanks to Sandro being really convincing). Now I admit that starting in 'Armageddon's Blade', the story did start to centre around individual heroes, but at least we got some good (but too short) campaigns in vanilla, not all of which were centred around the main conflict. It's all very well writing a massive action-plot like in H5, but it does start yo get boring after a while.
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted November 13, 2013 08:09 AM |
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At least H5's plot had direction and could be followed. H6 was all over the show and you have to complete missions in different orders to get the storyline properly.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted November 13, 2013 08:19 AM |
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Not really, if you played all the campaigns it was not hard to piece the events together. You might of course miss a few things but I found the general outline easy to follow. Just the necro campaign explains everything and thankfully I saved it for last.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted November 13, 2013 08:46 AM |
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Edited by Avirosb at 10:32, 13 Nov 2013.
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Heroes 6 is an old-school hardcore TBS that doesn't handhold you with seamless narration 
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About Necromancers
I'll come back to this after work if we don't change the subject in the meantime.
If I don't, then thanks for the insight.
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted November 13, 2013 09:37 AM |
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Elvin said:
Not really, if you played all the campaigns it was not hard to piece the events together. You might of course miss a few things but I found the general outline easy to follow. Just the necro campaign explains everything and thankfully I saved it for last.
There should be an order of faction campaigns to play that follow the storyline...otherwise, it can be all over the place, and as you mentioned, if one played the Necro campaign first, you kind of get the conclusion before playing the other factions where the story starts from the beginning again!
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Simpelicity
Promising
Famous Hero
Video maker
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posted November 13, 2013 01:40 PM |
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DoubleDeck said:
There should be an order of faction campaigns to play that follow the storyline...otherwise, it can be all over the place, and as you mentioned, if one played the Necro campaign first, you kind of get the conclusion before playing the other factions where the story starts from the beginning again!
As far as vanilla goes, the campaigns were in alphabetical order of the hero's name. True, that's not exactly optimal. It would've been hard for them to give a true chronological order, since everything happens mostly simultaneously, but they still could've given an indicative order, like nagas before orcs, and necro at the end.
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted November 13, 2013 03:12 PM |
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Still, I preferred the whole finishing one campaign to unlock the next campaign (like H5 and before)...that way the story can follow a chronological timeline...
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Simpelicity
Promising
Famous Hero
Video maker
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posted November 13, 2013 04:01 PM |
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Avirosb said:
I'll come back to this after work if we don't change the subject in the meantime.
If I don't, then thanks for the insight.
Same to you, actually. I experienced H3 the same as any other game, through its visuals and story. I didn't read the bios, and all the necros ever do is be evil and power hungry, with little to no justification for it. Power hunger and evilness seemed reasons unto themselves. It's good they gave them purpose beyond that somewhere.
As for Gauldoth, I'm afraid my appreciation of him was heavily skewered by my appreciation of his faction. He instantly hit me as a fabrication designed to justify the abberation that was the merger of inferno and necro (half alive half dead, exactly like his faction). That kind of ended immediately most of my interest. I just couldn't get past them ruining the death faction like that.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 13, 2013 04:04 PM |
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DoubleDeck said:
Still, I preferred the whole finishing one campaign to unlock the next campaign (like H5 and before)...that way the story can follow a chronological timeline...
Someone might argue that it'll be too linear then.
And if it had more storylines (like in H6) then that wouldn't be good either cuz it's not chronological, and you might miss a thing or two.
Can we stop whining over silly things please? There are other things that deserve more attention than this...
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted November 13, 2013 04:26 PM |
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Quote:
Can we stop whining over silly things please? There are other things that deserve more attention than this...
Such as...?
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Raelag84
Famous Hero
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posted November 13, 2013 04:31 PM |
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While we are expressing opinions let me compare a faction that really bothers me with one that I find very interesting; Sanctuary and real life Japan. Having studied the economy and history of Japan I can attest that we in the "west" sometimes misinterpret economic and political motives for cultural ones. For example, the Shogunate rulers didn't isolate Japan just because it was "the Asian thing to do." They did it so foreign influence would not compete with his own. Nobunaga was happy to adopt foreign firearms, and trade with other nations when he needed extra power to expand his control of Japan; Bushido be dammed. This doesn't mean Japanese people are bad, only that they are human.
The result of this misunderstanding of Japan is that the country and the people seem to have a mystical quality to them that doesn't really exist, and frankly that's all the Sanctuary faction really is. The people of one nation misunderstanding another. Though the Naga are not technically human they should be treated as such to be interesting.
To be fair, as a fan of anime, I can say misunderstandings occur the other way too. Americans, like myself, are often stereotyped as criminal cowboys, and gun toting street thugs (see Black Lagoon for example).
MattII said:
I'm just pointing out that as in-depth as the writing in H5 was, the writing of H3 can match it for most things, and at least none of the H3 campaigns required the heroes to be absolute dimwits...
True.
@Elvin
Though the story of H6 is an improvement over H5 it has a major plot hole; the Griffins want to follow their own hearts, and brake free of their nation's distant and impersonal causes, but yet they still get their armies. The result is that their troops are reduced to mindless robots.
The problem is especially acute with Irina. Here she is in a land that is supposedly very insular, betraying the very daimyo that took her in, with no regard for the culture what's so ever, and yet she has Naga following her. Why?! If I was a Naga I would never follow her, because she has no interest in me or in a greater cause that I might also follow.
You don't get be independent minded, and get an army unless your like dictator of North Korea, in which case you are a boring character.
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This thread is pages long: 
