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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 24, 2014 01:21 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
There is no way round 3D, since we had two games with it. The trick is to have 3d AND a great game, and that should be possible.
For Ubi!?
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 24, 2014 01:41 PM |
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted January 24, 2014 01:41 PM |
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H3, flawed? I thought it was one of the most stable games in the franchise?
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 24, 2014 02:05 PM |
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Flawed, yes.
What about useless skills?
Competitively spoken, you can forget a lot of Hero classes, starting with Witches - Wisdom as a starting skill plus Eagle Eye as the most probable skill to get is obviously a liability, especially if you compare them with the corresponding Stronghold Magic hero class - Alchemists, a big part of the Inferno heroes ...
What about spells - lots of useless ones, cluttering the selection: MISFORTUNE? Christ.
What about the magic system? Mass Haste/Slow being the most powerful spells as a rule of thought, isn't speaking for a balanced system here.
What about "imbalanced"? Hero specials (Logistics, Armorer, Attack...)
What about imbalanced towns? Say, Necropolis.
What about imbalanced creatures and spells?
What about the plethora of silly exploits possible? BLOCKING the castle doors from the outside? Gimme a break....
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted January 24, 2014 02:33 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
What about the plethora of silly exploits possible? BLOCKING the castle doors from the outside? Gimme a break....
It's a feature of the game! Open de door first so it doesn't happen 
On a serious note, while it's true that H3 had it's flaws, it's undeniable that the game was fun and easy to get into it. So, while I agree on learning from the past and not repeating the same flaws again (useless spells, mass haste/slow, etc...), I would never say "Heroes 3 has many flaws, H4 doesn't" like you just said. Just thinking on heroes on the battlefield, imbalances (vamps anyone?), creature choice (without the possibility of demolishing their buildings!), boring townscreens (everyone the same pattern), bad graphics...just no
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SepSpring
Known Hero
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posted January 24, 2014 02:35 PM |
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Quote:
Several months ago I used to write here about the idea of mixing magic schools that should result in the emergence of some new sections of the Ability Tree. I'll try to explain it later on a simple example of two magic schools being combined in a relatively new Ability Tree branch (of course, with each of them still having its own separate section). And this wouldn't be much more complex than the skill system from "Heroes V".
Here it is. The combination of air and water elements contributes to the appearance of the new magic school - magic of the cold. I took these two spells and four effects as an example and developed the new section of the Ability Tree.
Mixing other elements can also result in the appearance of other interesting branches of the Ability Tree for magic heroes. Air and fire, for instance (including such spells as the "Lightning Bolt", "Chain Lightning", "Mirage" and numerous useful perks for them).
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted January 24, 2014 03:25 PM |
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Edited by Avirosb at 15:35, 24 Jan 2014.
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JollyJoker said:
Flawed, yes.
What about useless skills?
Competitively spoken, you can forget a lot of Hero classes, starting with Witches - Wisdom as a starting skill plus Eagle Eye as the most probable skill to get is obviously a liability, especially if you compare them with the corresponding Stronghold Magic hero class - Alchemists, a big part of the Inferno heroes ...
What about spells - lots of useless ones, cluttering the selection: MISFORTUNE? Christ.
What about the magic system? Mass Haste/Slow being the most powerful spells as a rule of thought, isn't speaking for a balanced system here.
What about "imbalanced"? Hero specials (Logistics, Armorer, Attack...)
What about imbalanced towns? Say, Necropolis.
What about imbalanced creatures and spells?
What about the plethora of silly exploits possible? BLOCKING the castle doors from the outside? Gimme a break....
Still though, it crashed far less than the games that came after 
Edit: I hope most of those were rhetorical questions because frankly
I've never had a problem with any of them, being not at all competitive.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted January 24, 2014 03:58 PM |
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Quote:
The answer should be, that HoMM 3 made a lot of things right when it comes to the WEIGHT of game elements against each others: for example, the relation of the importance of army (7 different creatures with upgrades) in relation to hero influence (value of attack/defense points with a view on damage, troop NUMBERS, and so on), even the amount of sucky skills in relation to the amount of useful things and in combination with the random picking mechanism. The only flaw in HoMM 4 is basically an imbalance with towns, especially with Necro, everything else is more or less fine.
Well, I was going to tell you that this was not the case at all, H3 had overpowered fractions, artifacts, spells (not just mass spells for might heroes but things like expert Town Portal,Dimension Door) and a TON of balance issues but looks like you don't need me to tell you that:
JollyJoker said:
Flawed, yes.
What about useless skills?
Competitively spoken, you can forget a lot of Hero classes, starting with Witches - Wisdom as a starting skill plus Eagle Eye as the most probable skill to get is obviously a liability, especially if you compare them with the corresponding Stronghold Magic hero class - Alchemists, a big part of the Inferno heroes ...
What about spells - lots of useless ones, cluttering the selection: MISFORTUNE? Christ.
What about the magic system? Mass Haste/Slow being the most powerful spells as a rule of thought, isn't speaking for a balanced system here.
What about "imbalanced"? Hero specials (Logistics, Armorer, Attack...)
What about imbalanced towns? Say, Necropolis.
What about imbalanced creatures and spells?
What about the plethora of silly exploits possible? BLOCKING the castle doors from the outside? Gimme a break....
One post you say the game made it to top because of balance and next you list all the imbalanced features, you lost me here.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 24, 2014 04:41 PM |
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Two different balances I talk about.
If a game with so many flaws hits so hard, the game must be right on a level that, then, would seem to be more important. In my opinion that level is the WEIGHT of game elements relative to each other: Town building has just the RIGHT LEVEL of complexity; armies and battlefield have JUST THE RIGHT SIZE. Hero influence versus creature influence on army strength (the "balance between the two) is JUST RIGHT; even the amount of good skills versus bad skills in combination with the random, probability based selection mechanism seems to be just right. RPG elements versus strategy -> just right ... and so on.
So it's the WEIGHT OF ELEMENTS IN RELATION TO EACH OTHER, where we have to take HoMM 3 as the Paragon. But not the elements as such.
(Example to see things: Hero classes: HoMM VI turn back to HoMM 3 kind of two classes per faction feels better than the single HoMM V class per faction.)
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted January 24, 2014 05:52 PM |
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Avirosb said:
H3, flawed? I thought it was one of the most stable games in the franchise?
Back when games didn't have online patches one could rely on...so games had to be 100%. Aaah the 90's gaming was great! No patches, no console bulldust (making games "easy")...
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 24, 2014 06:02 PM |
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SepSpring said:
Quote:
Several months ago I used to write here about the idea of mixing magic schools that should result in the emergence of some new sections of the Ability Tree. I'll try to explain it later on a simple example of two magic schools being combined in a relatively new Ability Tree branch (of course, with each of them still having its own separate section). And this wouldn't be much more complex than the skill system from "Heroes V".
Here it is. The combination of air and water elements contributes to the appearance of the new magic school - magic of the cold. I took these two spells and four effects as an example and developed the new section of the Ability Tree.
Mixing other elements can also result in the appearance of other interesting branches of the Ability Tree for magic heroes. Air and fire, for instance (including such spells as the "Lightning Bolt", "Chain Lightning", "Mirage" and numerous useful perks for them).
I like those perks a lot (the Trapper one is so cool), but it's obvious that you're following the H6 skill format. And I don't wanna see that in another Heroes game ever again.
Try working on that while thinking of the H5 skillwheel... Only with 5 mastery levels (Basic, Advanced, Expert, Master, Grandmaster) and more than 15 perks per skill. That should give you a lot of space to combine the magic schools.
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SepSpring
Known Hero
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posted January 24, 2014 07:30 PM |
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Quote:
I like those perks a lot (the Trapper one is so cool), but it's obvious that you're following the H6 skill format. And I don't wanna see that in another Heroes game ever again.
Thanks! You know, the only aspects of "Heroes VI" which I used in this example are, firstly, the maximum hero level (30) and, secondly, the fact that all skills require a certain hero level. The first one is not really important for me, but I consider the concept of level restrictions quite logical and worthy. Such extremely powerful perks as the "Polar Winter" and "Deep Frostbite" should have very high requirements, and in this case hero magic affinity or faction alignment is not enough. It's obvious that level restrictions and necessary skill combinations would solve the problem effectively.
Quote:
Try working on that while thinking of the H5 skillwheel... Only with 5 mastery levels (Basic, Advanced, Expert, Master, Grandmaster) and more than 15 perks per skill. That should give you a lot of space to combine the magic schools.
This example can easily be converted to the system which you prefer. "Magic of the Cold Fundamentals", the basic skill, can be expanded by introducing four additional degrees for it that will increase the spells' effectiveness (destructiveness for the "Blizzard" and immobilization power for the "Black Ice"). Perks... I think they're OK. The player will just have to choose from unlocked ones manually (VI) or select between those which are randomly offered during a hero's level-up (V) depending on the system the game has.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 24, 2014 09:24 PM |
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How many magic schools do you have in mind and what would be those? Just so that I can calculate how many combinations are possible, and if even higher combinations could be achieved by very strong magic heroes (like combos of 3 magic schools, or something similar to H5 Arcane Omniscience from Wizards)
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted January 25, 2014 06:04 AM |
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Just thought about it.....would be great incorporating Duel of Champions and Heroes together! You walk around on the adventure map with your cards, castle is for building cards, and you fight duels with your cards!
Duel of Heroes!
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 25, 2014 09:22 AM |
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SepSpring
Known Hero
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posted January 25, 2014 11:02 AM |
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Quote:
How many magic schools do you have in mind and what would be those?
The ideas are nearly countless. Besides having seven usual magic schools, the following can be added (just several examples, possible combinations are numerous).
It's clear with traditional schools of one element.
Air - "Storm Winds", "Tornado"
Darkness - "Curse", "Hypnosis"
Earth - "Earthquake", "Rock Wall"
Fire - "Fire Shield", "Inferno"
Light - "Blessing", "Resurrection"
Prime - "Teleportation", "Vision"
Water - "Flood", "Tsunami"
The examples of possible combinations of two / three elements. To my mind, in this case the Ability Tree should contain not separate sections for each of these mixes, but a large common branch called "Compound Magic", for instance, that provides individual perks that strengthen the spells.
Air + Earth + Water - "Poison Cloud", "Quicksand"
Air + Fire - "Lightning", "Mirage"
Air + Water - "Black Ice", "Blizzard"
Darkness + Fire - "Berserker", "Frenzy"
Darkness + Water - "Oblivion", "Sorrow"
Earth + Fire - "Meteor Shower", "Mines"
Earth + Water - "Regeneration"
Fire + Light - "Blindness", "Fervour"
Fire + Water - "Geyser"
Light + Water - "Pacification"
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 25, 2014 11:38 AM |
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There's one thing bothering me. Should Heroes get spells by spending points in the ability tree like in H6, or is the Mage Guild a better option? Or could a mix of both be the best way to go? Like having "lesser" spells available at Magic Guilds AND the possibility to research more powerful spells individually based on the hero's skills in the respective magic schools.
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SepSpring
Known Hero
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posted January 25, 2014 01:20 PM |
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Quote:
Should Heroes get spells by spending points in the ability tree like in H6, or is the Mage Guild a better option? Or could a mix of both be the best way to go? Like having "lesser" spells available at Magic Guilds AND the possibility to research more powerful spells individually based on the hero's skills in the respective magic schools.
I'll try to explain you my idea in this example.
Imagine you play with Haven magic hero who has access to the schools of air, fire, light and prime. The central skill for this hero type - "Magic of the Light Fundamentals" - is already learnt. It allows the hero to pay for learning light spells of a low level ("Blessing" and "Heal", for instance) in the friendly town's guild (of course, the town type is also a restriction: such factions as Dungeon, Inferno and Necropolis won't provide the ability to buy light spells in their guilds). During his adventures the hero increased his level up to the second. He came back to a friendly town, studied the "Magic of the Fire Fundamentals" in a town's university for a fee and gained an ability to buy the "Fervour" spell in the guild as all the requirements necessary for learning it are met ("Magic of the Light Fundamentals" and "Magic of the Fire Fundamentals"). Later level three is achieved. The hero is back to a town's university again. And now he decides not to learn a new skill (upgrading on of already learnt skills is not available yet because of the hero level requirement). He buys a simple perk from the "Compound Magic" section instead in order to make the "Fervour" spell increase not morale only, but both initiative and morale. And so on.
To sum up, I want to say that I'm against the idea of "Heroes VI" that made you spend an ability point on learning a single spell. I'm for: towns' guilds and universities; skills and spells learning process requiring a fee; perks not giving new spells, but strengthening already existing ones (like adding the storm winds to the "Blizzard" spell); basic skills allowing to learn more complex spells and strengthening their core effectiveness on their advancement (for example, with the "Magic of the Light Fundamentals" a hero can have the "Blessing" (+X luck) and "Heal" (Y HP), and with "Magic of the Light Mastery" - the "Blessing" (+5X luck), "Heal" (10Y HP), "Light Elementals", "Purity" and "Resurrection").
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted January 25, 2014 02:03 PM |
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DoubleDeck said:
Just thought about it.....would be great incorporating Duel of Champions and Heroes together! You walk around on the adventure map with your cards, castle is for building cards, and you fight duels with your cards!
Duel of Heroes!
And Arcomage too 
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 25, 2014 02:58 PM |
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SepSpring said:
To sum up, I want to say that I'm against the idea of "Heroes VI" that made you spend an ability point on learning a single spell. I'm for: towns' guilds and universities; skills and spells learning process requiring a fee; perks not giving new spells, but strengthening already existing ones (like adding the storm winds to the "Blizzard" spell); basic skills allowing to learn more complex spells and strengthening their core effectiveness on their advancement (for example, with the "Magic of the Light Fundamentals" a hero can have the "Blessing" (+X luck) and "Heal" (Y HP), and with "Magic of the Light Mastery" - the "Blessing" (+5X luck), "Heal" (10Y HP), "Light Elementals", "Purity" and "Resurrection").
Wow, that sounds fun to me. But I don't know how the community'd react if they'd get a Heroes like that. I mean, the getting level but have to pay to learn skills part may be a bit too much. I'd maintain the H5 system with skills dropping randomly AND have an university too. Though I think a "Battle Academy" would be a better counterpart for the Mage Guild. One's might, one's magic. Or maybe have them all 3 with the University giving adventure skills, like logistics, enlightenment, sorcery, etc.
I agree with all the rest, mastery levels in magic schools should make you able to learn the spells from your magic guild, the perks should improve those spells.
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This thread is pages long: 
